5 ms·

I will again mention my favorite cancer champions, the bats. Bats very rarely get cancer (I tried to find the actual # of verified cases of cancers in bats, bu

I will again mention my favorite cancer champions, the bats. Bats very rarely get cancer (I tried to find the actual # of verified cases of cancers in bats, but came up short), and they have a lot of anti-cancer adaptations in their genome. They are also really good at taming inflammation and activity of various viruses. That helps them survive infection with rabies - their systems just don't react as aggresively to the infection as ours (and most mammals') do. This may help them against cancer as well. Not just p53 et al.

mattmaroon 1y ago
So you’re saying if we just switch our diet to mosquitos we’ll all be fine?
- dsr_ 1y ago
  No, but in 100-300 generations your descendants will be.
  - al_borland 1y ago
    Why would that be the case? Plenty of people have kids before getting cancer. How is it going to go away when it isn’t preventing reproduction?
    - deadbabe 1y ago
      If a person’s family has a history of cancer, do not reproduce with that person. Similarly, if your family has history of cancer, do not reproduce.
      - al_borland 1y ago
        That’s never going to happen at a population level, short of government backed eugenics.
- midnitewarrior 1y ago
  It's a common misconception that bats eat mosquitoes. It comes from a study where bats were trapped in a chamber filled with mosquitoes to see how many they could eat. A comparable experiment would be putting a human in a cage filled with bread crumbs to see how many the human eats. In our natural habitat, we eat slices of bread and other food. We don't waste the time and energy of consuming bread crumbs unless given no alternative. Yes, bats can eat mosquitoes, but why bother when there are much larger, nutritious insects to catch with the same effort?
Earw0rm 1y ago
I wonder what the evolutionary engineering trade-off is there. Put it another way, it seems our systems are balanced to regulate cancer during our youth and reproductive years to a low but non-zero level. Why hasn't evolution turned the dial up another couple of notches? Could be simple metabolic cost, or could be something else.
- inglor_cz 1y ago
  Not everything is necessarily a trade-off. Perhaps the bats just randomly hit a sweet spot that most of other species missed. As you say, things that happen later in the organism's life usually don't result in strong evolutionary effects.
  - Earw0rm 1y ago
    Perhaps, but AFAIK similar things show up in other metabolically "different" animals - sharks, naked mole rats - whereas rodents adapted to a "run hot and fast" kind of a lifeplan seem to be especially prone. We know that the body has cancer suppressor mechanisms, because when they fail (due to HIV or genetic mutations) people suffer higher rates of the disease. So it's reasonable to guess that evolution has chosen not to dial them up further. It feels like the immune/inflammatory system is something we understand about as well as the brain, which is to say pretty good at a gross anatomical level, and also at the fine molecular level, but with a heck of a lot of complex system dynamics in between remaining to be mapped out.
- coldtea 1y ago
  >Why hasn't evolution turned the dial up another couple of notches? Because evolution doesn't care about us beyond reproduction age (after which is when most cancers occur, especially considering that historically that age was between say 16 and 35). Or even better phrased, because evolution doesn't care or plan at all, it's a blind mechanism. If a local minimum is ok, we'll stay there for as long as some environmental or other evolutionary pressure gets to move us further. Cancer wasn't a big issue for most of our existance as species, especially with lower life expectancies, more active lifestyles, zero obesity, zero pollutants, etc. In evolutionary terms, modern lifestyles are not even a blip, especially post-industrial ones which don't even register.
gus_massa 1y ago
From a fast search in Google, life expectancy in bats is 5-15 years. A long life of 70-80 years gives more time to accumulate mutations and get a cancer. Also, probably only bats in zoos get a cancer diagnosis. Most ills bats just die in the wild and are eaten by other animals.
- inglor_cz 1y ago
  Many species of bats live longer than that. Like 40. When compared to other mammals, bats live very long lives relative to their tiny size. Also, short-lived animals get cancer all of the time. Mice, dogs, cats. The idea of cancer being caused by passive accumulation of mutations over time looks appealing, but does not seem to correspond to actual frequency of cancer mapped by body size (because more cells = more chances of some cell going haywire), nor to maximum age. Anti-cancer capabilities of a given organism seem to be more important. There are gene variants that are protective against cancer, and the capability of the immune system to kill suspicious cells matters too. (Note that almost all new efficient oncological treatments in the last decade or so involve the immune system of the patient.)
  - tarun_anand 1y ago
    Speaking of size vs cancer elephants rarely get cancer too!
    - sedgjh23 1y ago
      On a related note, for those interested, a quick about Peto’s Paradox was quite fun. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peto's_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peto's_paradox
    - luckydata 1y ago
      There's a great Kurz gesagt video about it. Whales get the least cancer! https://youtu.be/1AElONvi9WQ?si=rhZjgpkORBTC0D8r https://youtu.be/1AElONvi9WQ?si=rhZjgpkORBTC0D8r
qqxufo 1y ago
[dead]
tdeck 1y ago
Perhaps RFK and Mr. Oz will be telling us all to sleep hanging upside down by next year.
westurner 1y ago
Though eating them will not solve cancer, And, I've been chatting with 2.5pro about this, so: /? which animals don't get cancer? https://www.google.com/search?q=Bats%2C+mole+rats%2C+horses%2C+cows%2C+bowhead+whales%2C+squirrels%2C+and+tasmanian+devils+are+cancer+resistant%3F+which+animals+don%27t+get+cancer%3F&client=ms-android-google&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp#sbfbu=1&pi=Bats,%20mole%20rats,%20horses,%20cows,%20bowhead%20whales,%20squirrels,%20and%20tasmanian%20devils%20are%20cancer%20resistant?%20which%20animals%20don't%20get%20cancer https://www.google.com/search?q=Bats%2C+mole+rats%2C+horses%... Bats (extra copies of the p53 gene, immune system, survival adaptations to atmospheric radiation exposure, high telomerase activity), Elephants (extra copies of p53), Mole rats (High molecular mass hyaluronan (HMM-HA) regulating sugar, contact inhibition), Blind mole rats (HMM-HA, protein that causes (apoptotic?) cell death)), Horses, Cows (BLV resistance, general resistance), Bowhead whales (prevention by DNA repair, CIRBP and RPA2, live to 200), Squirrels (hypersensitive cell monitoring, high telomerase activity,), and Tasmanian devils (DFTD resistance adaptation) are all cancer resistant? If there are natural food sources that treat or inhibit cancer, and humans unwittingly were eating such foods until modern times, could it be that humans have prevented adaptation by supplementation (a support that has collapsed as modern diets have changed)? > [... list of anti-inflammatory diet foods] How exposed to CPMV Cowpea Mosaic Virus are humans dietarily in modern and in ancient times? CPMV causes a IFN response? (CPMV is highly prevalent in cowpeas and black-eyed peas (which are "good luck")) > Antibody evidence: Studies have tested patient sera for antibodies against CPMV and found that over 50% of tested samples were positive, indicating past exposure. [...] The consistent, low-level dietary exposure to CPMV over human history, and its ability to trigger an IFN response without causing infection, could have provided a form of regular, passive immune stimulation. [...] > Despite being a plant virus, CPMV is recognized by the mammalian immune system as a "danger signal." This recognition happens through special receptors on immune cells called Toll-like receptors (TLRs), specifically TLR2, TLR4, and TLR7. > CPMV and IFN-gamma: Studies have shown that exposing human immune cells (peripheral blood mononuclear cells or PBMCs) to CPMV induces the secretion of IFN-gamma, a potent anti-tumor cytokine. > Encapsulated RNA: The CPMV virus nanoparticle contains encapsulated RNA, which is one of the triggers for the immune response. The RNA activates TLR7/8, which leads to the production of Type I interferons (IFN-α and IFN-β), further boosting the immune system's anti-cancer response. There are (differently encapsulated) RNA cancer vaccines in development. CPMV is basically already a general purpose bioengineering platform with significant review IIUC? How dietarily exposed to EPS3.9 polysaccharide are humans and cancer-resistant animals? Is there a one-two CPMV + EPS3.9 cancer treatment opportunity? From https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44988761 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44988761 : > Can EPS3.9 cause pyroptosis cause IFN cause epitope spreading for cancer treatment? /? Spongiibacter nanhainus CSC3.9 : https://www.google.com/search?q=Spongiibacter+nanhainus+CSC3.9 https://www.google.com/search?q=Spongiibacter+nanhainus+CSC3... : > Spongiibacter nanhainus CSC3.9 is a novel deep-sea bacterium isolated from a [deep ocean] cold seep [with blue light] that produces both a volatile organic compound (VOC) called VOC-3.9 with broad-spectrum antimicrobial activity and a sugar-based compound, exopolysaccharide (EPS3.9), which targets cancer cells by inducing programmed cell death Could CRISPR or similar produce an alternate bacterium that's easier to brew which also produces EPS3.9 without the cold temperature and high pressure? Are there potentially other natural sources of EPS3.9 besides CSC3.9? Endocannabinoids and the ECS Endocannabinoid System modulate and regulate immune and inflammatory responses (in non- and pre- insect invertebrates and in all vertebrates). Omega PUFAs are endocannabinoid precursors. There are also (fat-soluble) Omega polyunsaturated fatty acids in algae and in fish. A bit of research on cancer again today: https://share.google/aimode/Qpar9RPUNy65IDt8n https://share.google/aimode/Qpar9RPUNy65IDt8n Would there be advantages to CPMV + EPS3.9 + CPMVprime + mRNA for cancer therapy? https://g.co/gemini/share/9c6526d1991f https://g.co/gemini/share/9c6526d1991f
pengaru 1y ago
This is also why bats are viral reservoirs and likely sources for mammalian pandemics - their immune system simply doesn't clear infections. My understanding is it's because they're constantly damaging their own dna from high operating temps (flying mammals). So the immune system must tolerate foreign looking dna at all times, constantly repairing cell damage instead of aggressively attacking foreigners.

mattmaroon 1y ago

So you’re saying if we just switch our diet to mosquitos we’ll all be fine?

dsr_ 1y ago
No, but in 100-300 generations your descendants will be.
- al_borland 1y ago
  Why would that be the case? Plenty of people have kids before getting cancer. How is it going to go away when it isn’t preventing reproduction?
  - deadbabe 1y ago
    If a person’s family has a history of cancer, do not reproduce with that person. Similarly, if your family has history of cancer, do not reproduce.
    - al_borland 1y ago
      That’s never going to happen at a population level, short of government backed eugenics.
midnitewarrior 1y ago
It's a common misconception that bats eat mosquitoes. It comes from a study where bats were trapped in a chamber filled with mosquitoes to see how many they could eat. A comparable experiment would be putting a human in a cage filled with bread crumbs to see how many the human eats. In our natural habitat, we eat slices of bread and other food. We don't waste the time and energy of consuming bread crumbs unless given no alternative. Yes, bats can eat mosquitoes, but why bother when there are much larger, nutritious insects to catch with the same effort?

Earw0rm 1y ago

I wonder what the evolutionary engineering trade-off is there. Put it another way, it seems our systems are balanced to regulate cancer during our youth and reproductive years to a low but non-zero level. Why hasn't evolution turned the dial up another couple of notches? Could be simple metabolic cost, or could be something else.

inglor_cz 1y ago
Not everything is necessarily a trade-off. Perhaps the bats just randomly hit a sweet spot that most of other species missed. As you say, things that happen later in the organism's life usually don't result in strong evolutionary effects.
- Earw0rm 1y ago
  Perhaps, but AFAIK similar things show up in other metabolically "different" animals - sharks, naked mole rats - whereas rodents adapted to a "run hot and fast" kind of a lifeplan seem to be especially prone. We know that the body has cancer suppressor mechanisms, because when they fail (due to HIV or genetic mutations) people suffer higher rates of the disease. So it's reasonable to guess that evolution has chosen not to dial them up further. It feels like the immune/inflammatory system is something we understand about as well as the brain, which is to say pretty good at a gross anatomical level, and also at the fine molecular level, but with a heck of a lot of complex system dynamics in between remaining to be mapped out.
coldtea 1y ago
>Why hasn't evolution turned the dial up another couple of notches? Because evolution doesn't care about us beyond reproduction age (after which is when most cancers occur, especially considering that historically that age was between say 16 and 35). Or even better phrased, because evolution doesn't care or plan at all, it's a blind mechanism. If a local minimum is ok, we'll stay there for as long as some environmental or other evolutionary pressure gets to move us further. Cancer wasn't a big issue for most of our existance as species, especially with lower life expectancies, more active lifestyles, zero obesity, zero pollutants, etc. In evolutionary terms, modern lifestyles are not even a blip, especially post-industrial ones which don't even register.

gus_massa 1y ago

From a fast search in Google, life expectancy in bats is 5-15 years. A long life of 70-80 years gives more time to accumulate mutations and get a cancer. Also, probably only bats in zoos get a cancer diagnosis. Most ills bats just die in the wild and are eaten by other animals.

inglor_cz 1y ago
Many species of bats live longer than that. Like 40. When compared to other mammals, bats live very long lives relative to their tiny size. Also, short-lived animals get cancer all of the time. Mice, dogs, cats. The idea of cancer being caused by passive accumulation of mutations over time looks appealing, but does not seem to correspond to actual frequency of cancer mapped by body size (because more cells = more chances of some cell going haywire), nor to maximum age. Anti-cancer capabilities of a given organism seem to be more important. There are gene variants that are protective against cancer, and the capability of the immune system to kill suspicious cells matters too. (Note that almost all new efficient oncological treatments in the last decade or so involve the immune system of the patient.)
- tarun_anand 1y ago
  Speaking of size vs cancer elephants rarely get cancer too!
  - sedgjh23 1y ago
    On a related note, for those interested, a quick about Peto’s Paradox was quite fun. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peto's_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peto's_paradox
  - luckydata 1y ago
    There's a great Kurz gesagt video about it. Whales get the least cancer! https://youtu.be/1AElONvi9WQ?si=rhZjgpkORBTC0D8r https://youtu.be/1AElONvi9WQ?si=rhZjgpkORBTC0D8r

qqxufo 1y ago

[dead]

tdeck 1y ago

Perhaps RFK and Mr. Oz will be telling us all to sleep hanging upside down by next year.

westurner 1y ago

Though eating them will not solve cancer, And, I've been chatting with 2.5pro about this, so: /? which animals don't get cancer? https://www.google.com/search?q=Bats%2C+mole+rats%2C+horses%2C+cows%2C+bowhead+whales%2C+squirrels%2C+and+tasmanian+devils+are+cancer+resistant%3F+which+animals+don%27t+get+cancer%3F&client=ms-android-google&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp#sbfbu=1&pi=Bats,%20mole%20rats,%20horses,%20cows,%20bowhead%20whales,%20squirrels,%20and%20tasmanian%20devils%20are%20cancer%20resistant?%20which%20animals%20don't%20get%20cancer https://www.google.com/search?q=Bats%2C+mole+rats%2C+horses%... Bats (extra copies of the p53 gene, immune system, survival adaptations to atmospheric radiation exposure, high telomerase activity), Elephants (extra copies of p53), Mole rats (High molecular mass hyaluronan (HMM-HA) regulating sugar, contact inhibition), Blind mole rats (HMM-HA, protein that causes (apoptotic?) cell death)), Horses, Cows (BLV resistance, general resistance), Bowhead whales (prevention by DNA repair, CIRBP and RPA2, live to 200), Squirrels (hypersensitive cell monitoring, high telomerase activity,), and Tasmanian devils (DFTD resistance adaptation) are all cancer resistant? If there are natural food sources that treat or inhibit cancer, and humans unwittingly were eating such foods until modern times, could it be that humans have prevented adaptation by supplementation (a support that has collapsed as modern diets have changed)? > [... list of anti-inflammatory diet foods] How exposed to CPMV Cowpea Mosaic Virus are humans dietarily in modern and in ancient times? CPMV causes a IFN response? (CPMV is highly prevalent in cowpeas and black-eyed peas (which are "good luck")) > Antibody evidence: Studies have tested patient sera for antibodies against CPMV and found that over 50% of tested samples were positive, indicating past exposure. [...] The consistent, low-level dietary exposure to CPMV over human history, and its ability to trigger an IFN response without causing infection, could have provided a form of regular, passive immune stimulation. [...] > Despite being a plant virus, CPMV is recognized by the mammalian immune system as a "danger signal." This recognition happens through special receptors on immune cells called Toll-like receptors (TLRs), specifically TLR2, TLR4, and TLR7. > CPMV and IFN-gamma: Studies have shown that exposing human immune cells (peripheral blood mononuclear cells or PBMCs) to CPMV induces the secretion of IFN-gamma, a potent anti-tumor cytokine. > Encapsulated RNA: The CPMV virus nanoparticle contains encapsulated RNA, which is one of the triggers for the immune response. The RNA activates TLR7/8, which leads to the production of Type I interferons (IFN-α and IFN-β), further boosting the immune system's anti-cancer response. There are (differently encapsulated) RNA cancer vaccines in development. CPMV is basically already a general purpose bioengineering platform with significant review IIUC? How dietarily exposed to EPS3.9 polysaccharide are humans and cancer-resistant animals? Is there a one-two CPMV + EPS3.9 cancer treatment opportunity? From https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44988761 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44988761 : > Can EPS3.9 cause pyroptosis cause IFN cause epitope spreading for cancer treatment? /? Spongiibacter nanhainus CSC3.9 : https://www.google.com/search?q=Spongiibacter+nanhainus+CSC3.9 https://www.google.com/search?q=Spongiibacter+nanhainus+CSC3... : > Spongiibacter nanhainus CSC3.9 is a novel deep-sea bacterium isolated from a [deep ocean] cold seep [with blue light] that produces both a volatile organic compound (VOC) called VOC-3.9 with broad-spectrum antimicrobial activity and a sugar-based compound, exopolysaccharide (EPS3.9), which targets cancer cells by inducing programmed cell death Could CRISPR or similar produce an alternate bacterium that's easier to brew which also produces EPS3.9 without the cold temperature and high pressure? Are there potentially other natural sources of EPS3.9 besides CSC3.9? Endocannabinoids and the ECS Endocannabinoid System modulate and regulate immune and inflammatory responses (in non- and pre- insect invertebrates and in all vertebrates). Omega PUFAs are endocannabinoid precursors. There are also (fat-soluble) Omega polyunsaturated fatty acids in algae and in fish. A bit of research on cancer again today: https://share.google/aimode/Qpar9RPUNy65IDt8n https://share.google/aimode/Qpar9RPUNy65IDt8n Would there be advantages to CPMV + EPS3.9 + CPMVprime + mRNA for cancer therapy? https://g.co/gemini/share/9c6526d1991f https://g.co/gemini/share/9c6526d1991f

pengaru 1y ago

This is also why bats are viral reservoirs and likely sources for mammalian pandemics - their immune system simply doesn't clear infections. My understanding is it's because they're constantly damaging their own dna from high operating temps (flying mammals). So the immune system must tolerate foreign looking dna at all times, constantly repairing cell damage instead of aggressively attacking foreigners.