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I hadn’t heard the word countersignaling before, but it matches something I had observed many years ago. My closest groups of friends always make so much fun o

• dustincoates 1y ago
  Not sure why this article didn't link to the original when citing it, but here's the link to the Scott Alexander blog: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/04/23/friendship-is-countersignaling/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/04/23/friendship-is-counters... And a follow up: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/09/friendship-is-still-countersignaling/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/09/friendship-is-still-co...
  • drewda 1y ago
    FWIW, this blog writer appears to only be cross-linking to his own posts. Perhaps good for his own SEO, but not as much for his readers...
• turtledragonfly 1y ago
  This seems fairly culture-dependent, from my experience. For instance, I've noticed a distinct difference in how sarcasm is received in the Northeast US vs the West Coast. What you described feels more Northeast-y to me (I'm sure it varies by other segments and sub-sub-cultures, too). There's the saying: "If an Irish person calls you 'asshole,' it means they think you're a friend. If they call you 'friend' it means they think you're an asshole." Not just for the Irish though, I don't think (:
  • bongodongobob 1y ago
    Ha that's funny. I'm from the Midwest and found my dry/sarcastic humor tended to confuse people on the West Coast. A lot of people tended to take me completely seriously when I was obviously joking.
    • jdonaldson 1y ago
      I always chalked that up to being around people that were new to the country and hadn't yet wrapped their head around the latest fashionable American cynicism. Generally takes a few decades to kick in, but when it does it's usually worth the wait (see Kumail Ali Nanjiani).
  • cortesoft 1y ago
    Well, I have lived in California my whole life, and 90% of my friends are also native Californians, so i guess it isn't exclusively east coast.
  • trinsic2 1y ago
    :) I also think this applies to Scotland and the UK. I love the irony that continent brings to the world.
• BurningFrog 1y ago
  Perhaps this is controversial, but I think this is a mostly male way of expressing affection. Women observing this sometimes conclude that men are horribly cruel to each other.
  • idontwantthis 1y ago
    I think that's because when women do it, they are usually being intentionally cruel. Any woman will tell you how cruel teenage girls are to each other.
  • brabel 1y ago
    Only some kind of men behave like that. I had many friends growing up and we never did that sort of thing, and it always put me off to see people who did.
    • starttoaster 1y ago
      Why did it put you off? Did you not understand the intention behind the words, or were the words unforgiveable despite their intention?
      • sophacles 1y ago
        Not the person you asked, but I think it comes down to past experiences/family environment/etc. Theres poking fun at someone to signal "i like you anyway"... that is real. There's also people who cross the line with their words, and use "i was just joking" as an excuse to be cruel. If someone has experienced a lot of the later, it makes sense that they don't really trust the former.
        • hilux 1y ago
          Very well said.
      • lelandbatey 1y ago
        Not who you asked. With age Ive found myself much more comfortable with folks "being mean, but in a friendly way" as they intend it. When I was younger though, I never understood why folks didn't instead just "say the nice part." Like, if your friends are always glad you join them even if you're always late, making fun of you for being late with a big smile can still feel pretty bad for you. Much better to say "hey please don't be late" and also "we really enjoy you spending time with us." With age Ive come to see that for reasons I don't understand, lots of folks have a massive aversion to saying clearly the things they appreciate about the people around them directly. Eh, their loss.
• trinsic2 1y ago
  This is a great observation. The concept from article was a eye opener. I always wondered why we give each other shit.
• rockercoaster 1y ago
  The book Impro treats extensively of what it calls "status games", in the context of building believable, natural scenes of dialog for the stage (or other dramatic purposes) and as a framework for making improvisation interesting. The author muses that the situation of feeling safe playing status games with another person—that is, treating them only as games, not as serious and with real status in play—is perhaps the definition of what friendship is. This could include trading barbs, taking turns playing the bully and the victim, trading playing "high" and "low" roles, jokey one-upsmanship, that kind of thing. Stuff you don't do with non-friends because there's too much risk of being taken seriously, and too much risk of losing actual status or of hurting someone else's status for-real when you didn't intend to.
  • hilux 1y ago
    OMG. The section (and one central page) in that book about status is one of the most insightful and meaningful things I have ever read in my entire life! Once you recognize status transactions ... they are absolutely everywhere, in every single interaction.
• ratelimitsteve 1y ago
  Can I float an adjacent idea? It collapses the anxiety by simply forcing the thing your anxious about to be over. I've definitely had the experience you're describing where someone likes me despite something I'm insecure about. I've also had the experience where someone dislikes me precisely because of something I'm insecure about and tells me as much to my face. Both are better than not knowing.
• xivzgrev 1y ago
  That's astute. I was always uncomfortable with this kind of joking. I felt threatened. The real reason was that I didn't have a good comeback. Let's say my nose was large, and a friend jokes about it. I need to say something back. And I could not think of anything. A low stakes situation becomes higher stakes than it needs to be. So on their side they see me struggle and probably feel bad, so they don't do it again. But then we are just friends not best friends. Curious how did you learn / practice this?
  • wizzwizz4 1y ago
    > And I could not think of anything. I've identified two approaches to this situation. One is to take the insult graciously, as though it's feedback: "Careful: you could put someone's eye out with that!" "Oh! Thanks for the reminder." (adjust the position of your head, as appropriate for your extremely large and dangerous nose) --- The other is to take whatever they said, and exaggerate it. This produces really good comebacks. (It's important to insist upon this point, regardless of any evidence you might receive to the contrary.) "Careful: you could put someone's eye out with that!" "Oh, could I? Well, your entire face is bad." If they respond with another insult, repeat the same strategy. They'll notice what you're doing after the second or third attempt, and then it will turn from "this person's bad at comebacks" into "this person's (pretending to be) bad at comebacks and it's funny". "My face is bad? Is that the best you could come up with?" "Your face is so bad that it makes everyone else's faces bad, too." "But… that means your face is also bad." "And whose fault is that? It's your fault. Specifically, the fault of your face. Which is bad." "Still means you've got a big nose." "Well you've got a small nose." "No I don't. We've got the same sized noses." "Thus invalidating your previous aspersion that my nose is unusually large. Who's bad at comebacks now?" "Still you." --- There's a third approach, if the insult is disguised as faux-concern: pretend you're taking it seriously, while exaggerating the characteristic they're concerned about. "Hey, you having trouble seeing past that, mate?" "Oh, no, it's alright: most of my vision is unobstructed." / "I've got some tape in my bag if I need it." / "It's no worse than binoculars."
    • boogieknite 1y ago
      the jerk store called
• deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
• lokimedes 1y ago
  That may be an interpretation. Another is that many have difficulty regulating their feelings, and “venting” the discomfort in this semi-controlled manner is a socially acceptable release because it invites others to do the same to you, and you all minimize the risk of catastrophic attacks under tension.
  • throwaway295729 1y ago
    Yes! I’ve noticed that when people struggle to manage their emotions, it often comes out in a kind of jabbing or teasing way. It’s usually not really about the other person, it’s more a reflection of their own insecurities. For example, the guy jabbing his friend for being short is probably not that tall himself and may feel insecure about it deep down. There could be some unprocessed feelings around it. The genuinely tall person usually couldn’t care less. The thought of making that jab doesn’t really even surface lol
• inanutshellus 1y ago
  It's a game that allies play in order to prepare for enemies. When played with allies, it connects you to each other and lets you put your guard down (which is perverse to those that don't get it). The same game played with an enemy teaches you to deflect rather than internalize bad-faith insults and teaches you to use wit and words to stand up for yourself, keeping your dignity without violence. ... Also it's a demonstration of equality. e.g. you can't play the game with your boss or your son, but you can play it with your brother and your peers.
• throw7 1y ago
  True. Back in the day, the mates and I would greet each other by saying, "Hey, fuck you." Then, "No, fuck you.". You can kinda guess it eventually ping pongs louder and funnier. We kind of had to stop when other innocent people would pop in and ask if everything is "ok".
• self_awareness 1y ago
  My friend group from my school did the same thing, but I've always hated this pattern. Because of exactly this behavior, after finishing school I've decided to intentionally drop some contacts. Maybe I've interpreted it as "I'm better than you, because you're doing X. I'm mentioning this over and over again, because it makes me feel better."
• veunes 1y ago
  It's the opposite of conditional acceptance, and probably one of the most stabilizing forms of social support you can have
• paulryanrogers 1y ago
  > My closest groups of friends always make so much fun of each other. We make negative comments about the worst traits about each other That sounds terrible. A candid conversation about our flaws is one thing. IME 'friends' who most often mock each other are just trying to elevate their status in the group, by pushing others down.
• hilux 1y ago
  Yeah, I don't know about that. I had many people in my life (including close friends and relatives) who continued to be abusive "it's just fun teasing" even after I asked them to stop. They are no longer in my life. I don't miss them even a little bit!
  • cortesoft 1y ago
    Anyone who doesn’t stop when asked is not a true friend. I would never tease anyone who didn’t seem to be enjoying it.
• luis_cho 1y ago
  I once worked at a place where we all called each other “NERD.” One time a person outside the IT circle turned to us in the cafeteria and shouted, “What's up, NERDS?” There was complete silence in the room. I guess only a nerd can call another nerd a nerd.
• dotnet00 1y ago
  I think this varies a lot depending on the person and the relationship. When I was younger, I couldn't put up with ribbing at all. I always took it as bullying. I still think very negatively of some of the people I was "friends" with at the time due to that. On the other hand, I have ~3 friends I made as an adult that I have been talking to very frequently (with some, daily), for a decade or so, and there, any level of ribbing is fine. I don't think it's about us knowing each other's worst qualities and being fine with it, as a lot of our banter is on things we can't change about ourselves. I think it's just a matter of trust.