14 ms·

Social anxiety isn't about being liked

283 points by rohmanhakim 1y ago

ge96 1y ago
I like that bit about optimizing for not going bankrupt vs. windfall Idk you hear these phrases all the time excelsior, shoot for the stars land in the moon, etc... gotta actually apply it Tangent about drugs I wish I felt like I did when on the snow all the time damn, what a great mindset like anything is possible, same with adhd meds but I can see how it would be bad too not having fear/self doubt eg. "I'm gonna jump off this building and land over there", over confidence Oh this was about 10 yrs ago I was partaking I'm not in that env anymore where I can easily source stuff, now it's just alochol
cortesoft 1y ago
I hadn’t heard the word countersignaling before, but it matches something I had observed many years ago. My closest groups of friends always make so much fun of each other. We make negative comments about the worst traits about each other, the things that we are most self-conscious about… yet every time my friends make fun of me for something I worry about, I actually feel better and more comfortable with myself. When I thought about why, I realized it’s because of the hidden message behind the ridicule of my longtime friends; they are telling me, “we are keenly aware of the worst qualities about you, and we love you and want to spend time with you anyway.” There is comfort in knowing you don’t have to hide your flaws to be accepted and loved.
- dustincoates 1y ago
  Not sure why this article didn't link to the original when citing it, but here's the link to the Scott Alexander blog: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/04/23/friendship-is-countersignaling/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/04/23/friendship-is-counters... And a follow up: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/09/friendship-is-still-countersignaling/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/09/friendship-is-still-co...
  - drewda 1y ago
    FWIW, this blog writer appears to only be cross-linking to his own posts. Perhaps good for his own SEO, but not as much for his readers...
- turtledragonfly 1y ago
  This seems fairly culture-dependent, from my experience. For instance, I've noticed a distinct difference in how sarcasm is received in the Northeast US vs the West Coast. What you described feels more Northeast-y to me (I'm sure it varies by other segments and sub-sub-cultures, too). There's the saying: "If an Irish person calls you 'asshole,' it means they think you're a friend. If they call you 'friend' it means they think you're an asshole." Not just for the Irish though, I don't think (:
  - bongodongobob 1y ago
    Ha that's funny. I'm from the Midwest and found my dry/sarcastic humor tended to confuse people on the West Coast. A lot of people tended to take me completely seriously when I was obviously joking.
    - jdonaldson 1y ago
      I always chalked that up to being around people that were new to the country and hadn't yet wrapped their head around the latest fashionable American cynicism. Generally takes a few decades to kick in, but when it does it's usually worth the wait (see Kumail Ali Nanjiani).
  - cortesoft 1y ago
    Well, I have lived in California my whole life, and 90% of my friends are also native Californians, so i guess it isn't exclusively east coast.
  - trinsic2 1y ago
    :) I also think this applies to Scotland and the UK. I love the irony that continent brings to the world.
- BurningFrog 1y ago
  Perhaps this is controversial, but I think this is a mostly male way of expressing affection. Women observing this sometimes conclude that men are horribly cruel to each other.
  - idontwantthis 1y ago
    I think that's because when women do it, they are usually being intentionally cruel. Any woman will tell you how cruel teenage girls are to each other.
  - brabel 1y ago
    Only some kind of men behave like that. I had many friends growing up and we never did that sort of thing, and it always put me off to see people who did.
    - starttoaster 1y ago
      Why did it put you off? Did you not understand the intention behind the words, or were the words unforgiveable despite their intention?
      - sophacles 1y ago
        Not the person you asked, but I think it comes down to past experiences/family environment/etc. Theres poking fun at someone to signal "i like you anyway"... that is real. There's also people who cross the line with their words, and use "i was just joking" as an excuse to be cruel. If someone has experienced a lot of the later, it makes sense that they don't really trust the former.
        hilux 1y ago
        Very well said.
      - lelandbatey 1y ago
        Not who you asked. With age Ive found myself much more comfortable with folks "being mean, but in a friendly way" as they intend it. When I was younger though, I never understood why folks didn't instead just "say the nice part." Like, if your friends are always glad you join them even if you're always late, making fun of you for being late with a big smile can still feel pretty bad for you. Much better to say "hey please don't be late" and also "we really enjoy you spending time with us." With age Ive come to see that for reasons I don't understand, lots of folks have a massive aversion to saying clearly the things they appreciate about the people around them directly. Eh, their loss.
- trinsic2 1y ago
  This is a great observation. The concept from article was a eye opener. I always wondered why we give each other shit.
- rockercoaster 1y ago
  The book Impro treats extensively of what it calls "status games", in the context of building believable, natural scenes of dialog for the stage (or other dramatic purposes) and as a framework for making improvisation interesting. The author muses that the situation of feeling safe playing status games with another person—that is, treating them only as games, not as serious and with real status in play—is perhaps the definition of what friendship is. This could include trading barbs, taking turns playing the bully and the victim, trading playing "high" and "low" roles, jokey one-upsmanship, that kind of thing. Stuff you don't do with non-friends because there's too much risk of being taken seriously, and too much risk of losing actual status or of hurting someone else's status for-real when you didn't intend to.
  - hilux 1y ago
    OMG. The section (and one central page) in that book about status is one of the most insightful and meaningful things I have ever read in my entire life! Once you recognize status transactions ... they are absolutely everywhere, in every single interaction.
- ratelimitsteve 1y ago
  Can I float an adjacent idea? It collapses the anxiety by simply forcing the thing your anxious about to be over. I've definitely had the experience you're describing where someone likes me despite something I'm insecure about. I've also had the experience where someone dislikes me precisely because of something I'm insecure about and tells me as much to my face. Both are better than not knowing.
- xivzgrev 1y ago
  That's astute. I was always uncomfortable with this kind of joking. I felt threatened. The real reason was that I didn't have a good comeback. Let's say my nose was large, and a friend jokes about it. I need to say something back. And I could not think of anything. A low stakes situation becomes higher stakes than it needs to be. So on their side they see me struggle and probably feel bad, so they don't do it again. But then we are just friends not best friends. Curious how did you learn / practice this?
  - wizzwizz4 1y ago
    > And I could not think of anything. I've identified two approaches to this situation. One is to take the insult graciously, as though it's feedback: "Careful: you could put someone's eye out with that!" "Oh! Thanks for the reminder." (adjust the position of your head, as appropriate for your extremely large and dangerous nose) --- The other is to take whatever they said, and exaggerate it. This produces really good comebacks. (It's important to insist upon this point, regardless of any evidence you might receive to the contrary.) "Careful: you could put someone's eye out with that!" "Oh, could I? Well, your entire face is bad." If they respond with another insult, repeat the same strategy. They'll notice what you're doing after the second or third attempt, and then it will turn from "this person's bad at comebacks" into "this person's (pretending to be) bad at comebacks and it's funny". "My face is bad? Is that the best you could come up with?" "Your face is so bad that it makes everyone else's faces bad, too." "But… that means your face is also bad." "And whose fault is that? It's your fault. Specifically, the fault of your face. Which is bad." "Still means you've got a big nose." "Well you've got a small nose." "No I don't. We've got the same sized noses." "Thus invalidating your previous aspersion that my nose is unusually large. Who's bad at comebacks now?" "Still you." --- There's a third approach, if the insult is disguised as faux-concern: pretend you're taking it seriously, while exaggerating the characteristic they're concerned about. "Hey, you having trouble seeing past that, mate?" "Oh, no, it's alright: most of my vision is unobstructed." / "I've got some tape in my bag if I need it." / "It's no worse than binoculars."
    - boogieknite 1y ago
      the jerk store called
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- lokimedes 1y ago
  That may be an interpretation. Another is that many have difficulty regulating their feelings, and “venting” the discomfort in this semi-controlled manner is a socially acceptable release because it invites others to do the same to you, and you all minimize the risk of catastrophic attacks under tension.
  - throwaway295729 1y ago
    Yes! I’ve noticed that when people struggle to manage their emotions, it often comes out in a kind of jabbing or teasing way. It’s usually not really about the other person, it’s more a reflection of their own insecurities. For example, the guy jabbing his friend for being short is probably not that tall himself and may feel insecure about it deep down. There could be some unprocessed feelings around it. The genuinely tall person usually couldn’t care less. The thought of making that jab doesn’t really even surface lol
- inanutshellus 1y ago
  It's a game that allies play in order to prepare for enemies. When played with allies, it connects you to each other and lets you put your guard down (which is perverse to those that don't get it). The same game played with an enemy teaches you to deflect rather than internalize bad-faith insults and teaches you to use wit and words to stand up for yourself, keeping your dignity without violence. ... Also it's a demonstration of equality. e.g. you can't play the game with your boss or your son, but you can play it with your brother and your peers.
- throw7 1y ago
  True. Back in the day, the mates and I would greet each other by saying, "Hey, fuck you." Then, "No, fuck you.". You can kinda guess it eventually ping pongs louder and funnier. We kind of had to stop when other innocent people would pop in and ask if everything is "ok".
- self_awareness 1y ago
  My friend group from my school did the same thing, but I've always hated this pattern. Because of exactly this behavior, after finishing school I've decided to intentionally drop some contacts. Maybe I've interpreted it as "I'm better than you, because you're doing X. I'm mentioning this over and over again, because it makes me feel better."
- veunes 1y ago
  It's the opposite of conditional acceptance, and probably one of the most stabilizing forms of social support you can have
- paulryanrogers 1y ago
  > My closest groups of friends always make so much fun of each other. We make negative comments about the worst traits about each other That sounds terrible. A candid conversation about our flaws is one thing. IME 'friends' who most often mock each other are just trying to elevate their status in the group, by pushing others down.
- hilux 1y ago
  Yeah, I don't know about that. I had many people in my life (including close friends and relatives) who continued to be abusive "it's just fun teasing" even after I asked them to stop. They are no longer in my life. I don't miss them even a little bit!
  - cortesoft 1y ago
    Anyone who doesn’t stop when asked is not a true friend. I would never tease anyone who didn’t seem to be enjoying it.
- luis_cho 1y ago
  I once worked at a place where we all called each other “NERD.” One time a person outside the IT circle turned to us in the cafeteria and shouted, “What's up, NERDS?” There was complete silence in the room. I guess only a nerd can call another nerd a nerd.
- dotnet00 1y ago
  I think this varies a lot depending on the person and the relationship. When I was younger, I couldn't put up with ribbing at all. I always took it as bullying. I still think very negatively of some of the people I was "friends" with at the time due to that. On the other hand, I have ~3 friends I made as an adult that I have been talking to very frequently (with some, daily), for a decade or so, and there, any level of ribbing is fine. I don't think it's about us knowing each other's worst qualities and being fine with it, as a lot of our banter is on things we can't change about ourselves. I think it's just a matter of trust.
YouWhy 1y ago
I find merit with the core point as well the delivery. I wish it was more commonly accepted that choosing not to act is effectively a stand against one's own value system in favor of the value systems of those who do act.
- ambicapter 1y ago
  It annoys me greatly when people say "I didn't choose [elected official] because I didn't vote at all".
isk517 1y ago
As a person with social anxiety and a fear of being disliked I get to be the person that people love to talk about how much they hate all of the people that don't fear being disliked and all of the ways they are getting either getting screwed by other people or are being screwed by other people. We really deserve the society we live in
- NAHWheatCracker 1y ago
  That first sentence is hard to grok.
  - Etheryte 1y ago
    No kidding, I read your comment first and then wondered how bad could it be. Turns out the whole comment is nearly that one sentence. Sentences are like functions, sometimes you need a really long one, but oftentimes they work better in reasonable chunks.
    - card_zero 1y ago
      Should be "to talk to", I think. Missing a "to". But has an extra "getting".
  - pryelluw 1y ago
    Astounding irony.
guerrilla 1y ago
This rings true to me as someone who's overcome most of his social anxiety over the last few years. The last graph is particularly correct. It's about being authentic and being okay with people not liking you. This is especially useful in dating because then you stop being needy (which is unattractive) when you can let go of the outcome and just show someone who you are and if they reject you then you simply realize that they aren't the person you were looking for because you were looking for someone who likes you for who you are. Is the person who wrote the post qualified to say this though? Like are these statements the result of scientific research or just his opinion like my opinion?
- aDyslecticCrow 1y ago
  It's a opinion piece. But so are must attempted explanations of emotions. How would you even study this? It seems some in the comments resonate and some disagree. So its somewhat useful. One thing i feel missing is the anxiety part of social anxiety. The way the brain colors vague or unclear external (social) signals in default negative ways, in a feedback loop. Not avoiding being disliked or seeking being liked, but simply being unable to quantity it correctly.
  - guerrilla 1y ago
    Fair enough but I still don't understand this person's relationship to the subject and why they are so vague about what they do and what their qualifications are on all of their social media.
dmesg 1y ago
Quote: > Why else would someone be so anxious about how others see them? The scientific consensus would tell the author that judgement in humans happens already the moment they see a person and it is immediate, even if the person not doing anything: https://www.nature.com/articles/srep40700 https://www.nature.com/articles/srep40700 >across three studies, we find that first impressions [...] made from thin slices of real-world social behavior by typically-developing observers are not only far less favorable across a range of trait judgments compared to controls Edit: Okay this was completely misunderstood. My point was that the "normal" people in the study immediately internally know if to like or not like a person. Hence why first impressions DO matter the most. Which is why I simply disagree with the argument in the OP that anyone has control over their perception. You also cannot win people over if the most respected person in a group dislikes you. The others will follow boot.
- layer8 1y ago
  I don’t think the article is about autism.
  - dmesg 1y ago
    Curious, yet the most people suffering from anxiety as secondary comorbid psychiatric condition are the depressed, autistic and ADHD sufferers. The article is definitely a mental health topic. A little harmless stage fright before a presentation is not real clinical generalized anxiety and affects most normal people.
    - nemomarx 1y ago
      You can be diagnosed with GAD or social anxiety disorders without being autistic. The comorbidity isn't total. I think there's a good question about whether people can tell you're anxious at a glance but worrying about that will make your anxiety much more visible.
      - dmesg 1y ago
        > I think there's a good question about whether people can tell you're anxious at a glance Which is why I linked the nature article? It's plain obvious an interesting point I tried to make that "normal" people will instantly perceive someone as likeable or unlikeable. Which the article in the OP goes great lengths to discuss. I mean I can live with people immediately going against my point, I just see they didn't even gave it 5 minutes of thought. Which is not necessarily directed at you, I cannot possibly convince anyone and reply to anyone at the same time.
ryandrake 1y ago
Off topic, but my eye twitched at the word "agentic." This word has infested every computing and software discussion as a buzzword, to the point where I am having a visceral reaction just seeing it. Even though it's used appropriately here, I have to admit I retched a little while reading. So tired of hearing "agentic."
stronglikedan 1y ago
I can dig it. I'm constantly and annoyingly replaying every social interaction in my head for days, and even longer when they're (in my perception) bad. Why would I want to go out, if I might subject myself to more of that? (I do go out and continue to subject myself to that, but nowhere near as frequently as my more social friends.)
- Rumudiez 1y ago
  I do this too. I’ve been led to believe it’s a symptom of OCD, which I absolutely express in other ways
elevatortrim 1y ago
I have social anxiety and it is completely unrelated to likeableness. I do not think people would not like me, I do not try to avoid people disliking me, that's not the point at all. Quite the opposite, I'm sure I'm an interesting person and I'm confident people would like me if I could take the step. Problem is, there is something that physically prevents me from saying "Hi!" to a stranger. I literally cannot get myself to take a step towards them and I can't explain why that is, because I do not understand it myself. Also quite interestingly (to me), this completely goes away under certain circumstances: (1) If I take around 2-3 units of alcohol and it is not a totally alien environment (it would not help if I was in a bar alone with complete strangers). (2) If more than about 70% of people in the room are people I know well. Then I do not feel anxious about approaching the remaining 30%.
- thewebguyd 1y ago
  I have the same exact experience as you. It's like some weird physical barrier, but I can't really articulate the feeling or explain it. The exposure therapy method here doesn't work because "just do it a bunch of times and you'll get more comfortable" isn't even possible for me, I can't "just do it." For me though, it takes more than a few beers to be comfortable approaching someone. I'd have to be completely sloshed and even then it's a struggle. The only time I didn't experience the seemingly physical barrier was in college when a friend convinced me to try MDMA and we went out. I became almost the exact opposite of who I am with the social anxiety. I was the most extraverted, outgoing person in our group quite literally chatting up anyone and everyone that I crossed paths with without any care or inhibition around it. No other pharmaceutical has been able to cure it for me like that, and it's a bit depressing because I liked that version of myself and I'd like to be able to be that person again without an incredibly dangerous illegal substance.
  - quesera 1y ago
    Make your own decisions of course, but make sure you are fully educated about the risks of MDMA. It is not generally considered to be a dangerous substance. It is illegal though, and moderation is always prudent.
brad0 1y ago
I've been reading through the book The Courage to be Disliked recently. I'm not a big fan of the writing style of the book, but some of the ideas in the book appear in this post too. One of the concepts in the book is being comfortable with being disliked. If instead you're trying to avoid being disliked, you're effectively subject to other people's whims. When you look at it from that perspective, that's a pretty stressful experience!
- ChrisLakin 1y ago
  > I'm not a big fan of the writing style of the book OP here. I address that in How I'd rewrite The Courage to be Disliked: https://chrislakin.blog/courage https://chrislakin.blog/courage
  - Etheryte 1y ago
    I can't help but feel that these criticisms, like many others of the book, are mostly down to cultural misunderstanding. The writing style of the book is deeply Japanese and that's off-putting for many, myself included. But for some, it's to the point where the forest is missed for the trees. I've read a few translations of it and some do a better job at conveying the idea than others, but they all feel clunky without the cultural context. A good example of what I mean is your first suggestion, choosing a less triggering explanation for teleology. The idea of trigger words as we understand them, and the need to shield people from them, is not a universal cultural phenomenon. The suggestion feels a bit like visiting a country where they drive on the left side of the road and suggesting they try and drive on the right instead. Maybe the suggestion is good! But maybe not, without cultural context, the suggestion reads mostly like just asking for things to be made more familiar to you.
  - brad0 1y ago
    Thanks for the link! I read through it and agree with most of your points, especially the parts about presence and separation of tasks. I personally liked the intellectual aspect of it, though I also agree that the emotional component should be there as well.
- immibis 1y ago
abxyz 1y ago
The problem with using clinical phrases to describe normal behavior is demonstrated in this post. "Social anxiety" has a specific clinical meaning that is not covered by this post. The post is actually discussing a very natural and rational nervousness that normal people have in social situations. The post is providing a way of thinking about that nervousness that can help reduce it, for the nervous person's benefit, and it's great if that works, but it's not addressing social anxiety. Social anxiety is a condition that cannot be thought away, you cannot rationalize social anxiety nor can it be represented as a cost/benefit analysis of risk of being disliked vs. reward of being liked. You can feel socially anxious without having social anxiety. You can be depressed without having depression. You will be depressed after your beloved pet dies. You will be socially anxious walking into a room full of people you haven't met before.
- ants_everywhere 1y ago
  I agree with you as a general rule. But this is actually pretty close to how Social Anxiety is defined. It's about the fear of being negatively evaluated or embarrassed. For example the DSM definition https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK519712/table/ch3.t12/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK519712/table/ch3.t12/ or the Mayo Clinic explainer page https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/social-anxiety-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20353561 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/social-anxiet.... I think what this blog post is getting at is describing for people the difference between fear of negative evaluation and positive desire to be liked. One thing the post misses is that sometimes these are learned behaviors that come from a lifetime of experience being disliked for no obvious reason. For example, sometimes outgoing autistic children develop social anxiety after their peers reject them repeatedly.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - smeej 1y ago
    > sometimes outgoing autistic children develop social anxiety after their peers reject them repeatedly. As a middle-aged woman who can't figure out what the benefits would be that would outweigh the costs of pursuing formal diagnosis at this stage, I related a lot harder to that line than I wanted to. I've always been extraverted. I always do fine in new interactions, because I'm chronically interested in anything I don't already know well, especially if someone else is passionate about it. Most of my first meetings with people quickly become conversations where I'm listening attentively and asking interested questions about some niche thing they love and their friends and family members are sick of hearing about. I get stellar reviews on initial conversations at unstructured social events. And yet I spend the vast majority of my time at home by myself because after about the fourth interaction, something about me registers as "off" to other people and they start to distance themselves from me. I have never understood why. I'm not socially anxious, at least not in the typical "can't get out and meet new people" way. I just can't take the never-ending hope-rejection loop anymore.
stared 1y ago
There are various types of insecurity. A book "How to attract women through honesty" by Mark Manson (I think the only book in dating genre I recommend without some caveats, and recommend regardless on one's gender or orientation) has a lot about insecurity vs security (or: neediness vs non-neediness). There was one passage that although most insecure people are in this "I don't want be hated" or "let anyone like/love me", there are also some people that are obsessed with everyone liking them. It has some different symptoms, but also stems from insecurity. I guess you know friends (or maybe you are one yourself) who play too hard to be liked by everyone. Also, there is an interesting case of super-popular people, who are super-needy, even though at the first glance they don't look so. What's is characteristic, though, it is that everything starts to fall apart when they lose their spotlight. (Think about actors or musicians who, after they are no longer as popular as they used to be, drown in depression and drugs.)
rw_panic0_0 1y ago
different ppl get different reasons for social anxiety bro. it's not tech you can't just say that mental problem Y is 100% because of X
strenholme 1y ago
As friends of mine who I consider popular have suggested to me “don’t give a fuck what people think about you”, and this blog says that in a much longer form. As someone who was extensively bullied as a kid, including with physical violence, my social anxiety went through the roof and it has taken me a long time and awareness of my trauma to heal from those wounds to the point I no longer have social anxiety. The world is sadly full of miserable cruel people who want to put me down so they can no longer have to deal with their own feelings of inferiority. I have made friends who truly love me for who I am, who give me space to talk, who do not constantly put me down in cruel ways (yes, I once had “friends” like that), and who truly care about my feelings, but it has taken a lot of work to get there. I can now sniff out someone who is starting to engage in bullying behavior, and block them from being in my life.
rexpop 1y ago
> being socially anxious tends to make you less likeable Citation needed.
flax 1y ago
Neither "wanting to be liked" or "wanting to avoid being disliked" rings true to me, at least as applied to my own social anxiety. I want to avoid being thought of at all. The idea of being liked is just as anxiety-producing as being disliked. Possibly more so. Every relationship with another person, positive or negative, is another cognitive burden to maintain. I would vastly prefer most of my interactions to just remain at the default/stranger level where I can re-use the same anticipatory model for most people I deal with. Tangentially related, I have for some time had a desire to write short stories, but the anxiety around revealing anything that might expose my inner self is probably the biggest reason why I don't. I was reading a collection of short stories yesterday and came upon Michael Swanwick's "Slow Life". It struck me that it shares more than a few similarities to his "The Very Pulse of the Machine": Woman astronaut on a moon in the outer solar system is placed in lethal danger, encounters alien intelligence that communicates by reading/influencing minds, she isn't sure whether the communication is genuine or hallucinated, eventually the alien intelligence provides a long-shot resolution to save her. Maybe Swanwick just had another story to tell with some of the same beats. It happens. Or maybe it's like bare feet in a Tarantino movie. The point is, the idea of someone examining my own stories and thinking such thoughts about me is extremely distressing. It's not being disliked that I try to avoid. I'm trying to avoid the baseline stress of social interaction. I recognize the irony of opening up about this in writing. If you have something to say _about me_, please don't.
- sixo 1y ago
  The weird thing about "The idea of being liked is just as anxiety-producing as being disliked" is that it is an incorrect prediction of reality: actually being liked would. Thinking about it is really a different thing: it overestimates the stakes involved, it mistakenly invents "ideas of people" to do the liking which do not behave like actual people, and is unable to build any self-esteem by imagining people liking you because these imagined people are under your our control; being liked by your own imagined people doesn't "count" the way being liked by real people would... The human mind is not really designed to handle under-socialization well, and seems to fill in the empty space with imaginary figures which fail to meet its social needs. Taken outside its natural tribal operating regime, it bugs out in all kinds of strange ways. > the idea of someone examining my own stories and thinking such thoughts about me is extremely distressing This is a very familiar feeling to me, and in my experience it actually is a fear of being disliked, or more specifically about not being able to control others' reactions to me. But the fear is so great and unapproachable that the mind cordons it "out of sight" of conscious feeling. It becomes better to not be thought of than to expose myself to the possibility of others seeing me poorly, especially if I'm not able to defend myself and make the case for my being seen with grace. I suspect that it is over-exposure to human meanness and judgement and under-exposure to kindness and grace which brings about this expectation of others' dispositions towards oneself; this perhaps is the reason for the Christian injunction that humans not judge one another--it guards against this particular failure mode of the social mind.
JumpinJack_Cash 1y ago
Social anxiety has to be correlated with deepness, aka the more shallow a person is the less social anxiety they present. Also some fixation with a person/ small group of people in particular and trying to win them over. The less socially anxious people cast a big net and that will cause people who'd like them and dislike them but the net is so big that they simply stick with those who like them.
- codersfocus 1y ago
  The reason you feel that way is because social anxiety correlates with anhedonia. The person doesn't engage in playfulness which is the basis of social connection across mammals. Because they aren't playful, you perceive this as "deepness." This cognitive fallacy connecting deepness / seriousness to substance, and connecting playfulness to triviality and frivolity has unfortunately affected me (I remember arguing it in high school English class!) Consciously adopting a "playful" attitude fixes my social anxiety, and adds charisma and humor to my character.
  - JumpinJack_Cash 1y ago
    I have never seen a place more playful than a roulette or a craps table in Vegas, people high five each other, they form groups they trash the casino when the bank wins... but it is very shallow and not very deep, it lasts a couple of hours and then each of the participant go separate ways.
- quesera 1y ago
  I think this is deceptive. Superficial interactions seem less anxious, but they are not necessarily representative of what's going on inside the minds of the participants. Learning to be superficial in superficial situations is a good way to fake your way through social anxiety. It isn't necessarily rewarding in itself, but it does smooth over some otherwise awkward scenarios. Maintaining the balance is critical, and an important aspect of social maturity. (It's a waste of time, yes! But being comfortable with a little bit of social inefficiency is essential to casual interactions which often have beneficial repercussions.)
seemaze 1y ago
>There's this popular idea that socially anxious folks are just dying to be liked Really? I've never come across that idea. If fact, in my experience 'social anxiety' is almost always driven by the fear of failure, not the ambition of uncertain success. I would counter that the opposite of 'social anxiety' - 'social vanity' - is more indicative of a deep desire to be liked.
keernan 1y ago
I've struggled with social anxiety for years. Just yesterday I discovered that I am unable to visualize mental images such as faces (aphantasia). I have always struggled in social settings where I people will be attending whom I've met on multiple but infrequent prior occasions - and I will recognize that I know them from somewhere but will be unable to place them or their name. This has happened for 40 years when I see my wife's cousins at funerals every 2-3 years (but otherwise never see them). They are so friendly and nice. Smiling and hugging me. But they have to realize that I am never able to use their name because I can't remember it - nor am I able to make inquiries about work or life because I remember nothing about them. The same happens when I, as a middle manager, travel for multiple day business trips to the home office. It is incredibly embarrassing which causes me to avoid such settings which in turn makes me seem aloof and unfriendly.
- quesera 1y ago
  Some people who struggle with this maintain a "personal CRM" system. Write down some names and notes about people. Re-read them when you're traveling to a place where you're likely to encounter them. Just writing the notes might be enough to solidify the memories for you, but re-reading surely will. Salespeople do this to feign familiarity, and it's artificial. Don't do that. People you see every few years will not expect you to remember their kids' names or birthdays. Specifics are often too intimate. But starting with their names, and building on with the simulation of a general memory or two (e.g. "are you still doing a lot of traveling for work?") are fine.
bananalychee 1y ago
I think the premise, backed up by a couple of random tweets, is questionable, but glossing over that, the conclusion is more or less "just be yourself and you'll have more success". Maybe. But I feel like it's pinning social anxiety purely on neurotic safety-seeking behavior, which is superficial. Surely generalized social anxiety is an unhealthy over-correction, but some personality types have inherently more success socially than others, or in blunt terms, some people are more likeable than others. If you're socially compatible with 90% of the population, it's not hard to ignore the 10% you don't meld with, but swap the numbers and the negative feedback will be overwhelming and makes the majority of social interactions anxiety-inducing. I guess that's why the anonymous Internet is full of disagreeable people.
- LorenPechtel 1y ago
  I find "just be yourself" insulting. It implies that the problem is attempting to fake it coming off wrong--it's all in your head. It ignores the reality that some people fit in better than others.
shitter 1y ago
This is part of it, but everyone to some degree has discomfort with being disliked and will do things to avoid it. At least in my experience, social anxiety is much more about the cognitive distortions that convince you others dislike you, when they may in fact be neutral or even have a positive view of you. Just as one example, when I'm interacting with someone who I haven't reached a certain level of comfortability with, I'm highly aware of and sensitive to their reactions to me in terms of what they're saying, their tone, their micro facial expressions, etc., and I perceive any small negative reaction as a sign that they don't like me. This usually isn't true! But it ironically has the effect of inducing self-sabotaging avoidant behaviors in me, such as over-censoring of what I say and just general awkwardness around them, which makes it much more likely they will end up disliking me.
bambax 1y ago
Social anxiety is what happens when the effort to appear acceptable to polite society feels overwhelming -- and pointless at the same time.
zkmon 1y ago
A person's existence is made up of what others think about the person and how the person relates to them. There is hardly anything else to make up the existence for the person. You are just a collection of perceptions about you, and your relations with the world. Even your money and assets are only as a valuable as seen by the world around you. You look trendy and stylish only because you align with the trends of the place and time. Your physical fitness is meaningful only at your place and time. A village woman in a third world can outlive many gym goers of the Western world. There is nothing else left to be considered as your absolute existence outside of how you relate with the world.
- smeej 1y ago
  Have you no interior life at all? Nothing that matters to you even if nobody else knows or cares that it does? This is one of the bleakest, most discouraging comments I think I've ever read, and it's hard for me (in a sad way) to believe anyone might actually mean it.
  - zkmon 1y ago
    There is nothing bleak or discouraging in what I said. This is true for even inanimate things on Earth or in the Universe. There is hardly any absolute existence of anything. Try to describe an alien life form. All your description is nothing but list of relations between that life from and things that you know about on the Earth. Things like, size, color, weight, shape - everything is a relation to some referential unit or frame. Things come into existence by relating themselves to the already existing worldly things. If a thing can't be described, it simply doesn't exist.
poemxo 1y ago
As someone with apparent social anxiety, I don't really care about being disliked either. Being left alone is the overriding priority by far, it is not an aversion to being disliked, although being disliked is not the best since it's still attention. If someone came to me and tried to mentor me about unlearning my discomfort with being disliked, I would feel like I'm being manipulated and I would make sure to avoid that person.
- mock-possum 1y ago
  Yeah same here. I like people, I like me - what I don’t like is the expectation that I essentially perform improv for others when I don’t want to. The problem is being observed, and expected to perform. It feels bad. Being left alone, with no risk of social interaction, feels really really good. It’s a literal relief from the constant energy expenditure that is acting out socializing. I’d prefer to avoid being disliked - or at any rate, disliked without good reason - but as you say, that’s mostly because then I’d be wasting even more of my time managing interactions with (or more likely avoiding interactions with) those who dislike me. My god what a waste of energy, how I abhor it.
  - CooCooCaCha 1y ago
    I’ve never been good at banter so this speaks to me. But it’s interesting to think that when people like you, they tend to want more from you and that leads to social obligations. And you can either go along with these social obligations or decline and come off as rude. So in a sense, social connections give people some amount of control over your life and that can feel restricting and draining sometimes. Even something as simple as a text message can be thought of as a task that someone gave you without your consent. And if you don’t respond within a certain time window then you’re rude and risk damaging the relationship. Or if you respond poorly that can damage it as well. Sometimes I wonder if this is social anxiety or just being extra aware of the realities of life.
guluarte 1y ago
social anxiety i think it is more the fear of breaking your own perception of yourself
- sublinear 1y ago
  This is so true. All of the other comments and the article itself fail to take into account the ego. At the end of the day you can only be sure that you are judging yourself. There's nothing else it could be about.
AtlasBarfed 1y ago
It's a flight instinct, it's due to danger. Isn't that obvious? Gangs of humans are dangerous if you don't know them, historically. Murderously dangerous. Hobbes is right, society is a thin veneer.
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nfw2 1y ago
"Social anxiety is more about the fear of being disliked than the desire to be liked" is a better way to summarize the gist of the article than the actual title. And the claim put this way seems pretty obvious.
stldev 1y ago
Anyone who has had to contend with social anxiety should be insulted reading this. Author is trying to frame social anxiety as "rational risk aversion"; it's not. Social anxiety isn't a strategy— it's your brain misfiring and treating normal social interactions as more serious threats. It's not about being liked. It's not about being disliked. At all. Reframing avoidance as "successfully avoiding dislike" just repackages the dysfunction with a motivational poster.
veunes 1y ago
I like the comparison to financial risk-aversion. The idea that social anxiety is a system working as designed, just with a different optimization function (avoid downside vs pursue upside), fits well with how behavior often emerges from misaligned incentives rather than "malfunction."
Mithriil 1y ago
I like seeing something along the line of constructive logic in the wild (i.e. not (not p) != p).
esseph 1y ago
What if my social anxiety is based on not liking other people? :)
ratmeadow 1y ago
The way my psychologist explained social anxiety to me was it's based off an innate system in our brain which is sensitive to social rejection. Rejection is potentially very bad because that might mean we get kicked out of our group and die (at least that is true thousands of years ago). Anxiety is overthinking and subconsciously trying to control all the outcomes to reduce rejection. And this includes avoidance as a response. This social anxiety pattern can be reinforced over time with negative or even neutral experiences, particularly through childhood. The system becomes attuned to unpleasant confirming evidence. Some brains may be particularly prone to this too. I think this explanation is consistent with all the experiences people are sharing in this thread. The core model at work is still the social rejection system, even if the exact behaviours and rationalisations you have are a little different. And the treatment is exposure therapy to get more neutral and positive experiences. Which can be very hard because your brain can be very strongly configured to avoid rejection. You may have to start very gently from steps which may not be particularly challenging (e.g. have a friend in a new coffee shop).

283 points by rohmanhakim 1y ago

ge96 1y ago

I like that bit about optimizing for not going bankrupt vs. windfall Idk you hear these phrases all the time excelsior, shoot for the stars land in the moon, etc... gotta actually apply it Tangent about drugs I wish I felt like I did when on the snow all the time damn, what a great mindset like anything is possible, same with adhd meds but I can see how it would be bad too not having fear/self doubt eg. "I'm gonna jump off this building and land over there", over confidence Oh this was about 10 yrs ago I was partaking I'm not in that env anymore where I can easily source stuff, now it's just alochol

cortesoft 1y ago

I hadn’t heard the word countersignaling before, but it matches something I had observed many years ago. My closest groups of friends always make so much fun of each other. We make negative comments about the worst traits about each other, the things that we are most self-conscious about… yet every time my friends make fun of me for something I worry about, I actually feel better and more comfortable with myself. When I thought about why, I realized it’s because of the hidden message behind the ridicule of my longtime friends; they are telling me, “we are keenly aware of the worst qualities about you, and we love you and want to spend time with you anyway.” There is comfort in knowing you don’t have to hide your flaws to be accepted and loved.

dustincoates 1y ago
Not sure why this article didn't link to the original when citing it, but here's the link to the Scott Alexander blog: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/04/23/friendship-is-countersignaling/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/04/23/friendship-is-counters... And a follow up: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/09/friendship-is-still-countersignaling/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/09/friendship-is-still-co...
- drewda 1y ago
  FWIW, this blog writer appears to only be cross-linking to his own posts. Perhaps good for his own SEO, but not as much for his readers...
turtledragonfly 1y ago
This seems fairly culture-dependent, from my experience. For instance, I've noticed a distinct difference in how sarcasm is received in the Northeast US vs the West Coast. What you described feels more Northeast-y to me (I'm sure it varies by other segments and sub-sub-cultures, too). There's the saying: "If an Irish person calls you 'asshole,' it means they think you're a friend. If they call you 'friend' it means they think you're an asshole." Not just for the Irish though, I don't think (:
- bongodongobob 1y ago
  Ha that's funny. I'm from the Midwest and found my dry/sarcastic humor tended to confuse people on the West Coast. A lot of people tended to take me completely seriously when I was obviously joking.
  - jdonaldson 1y ago
    I always chalked that up to being around people that were new to the country and hadn't yet wrapped their head around the latest fashionable American cynicism. Generally takes a few decades to kick in, but when it does it's usually worth the wait (see Kumail Ali Nanjiani).
- cortesoft 1y ago
  Well, I have lived in California my whole life, and 90% of my friends are also native Californians, so i guess it isn't exclusively east coast.
- trinsic2 1y ago
  :) I also think this applies to Scotland and the UK. I love the irony that continent brings to the world.
BurningFrog 1y ago
Perhaps this is controversial, but I think this is a mostly male way of expressing affection. Women observing this sometimes conclude that men are horribly cruel to each other.
- idontwantthis 1y ago
  I think that's because when women do it, they are usually being intentionally cruel. Any woman will tell you how cruel teenage girls are to each other.
- brabel 1y ago
  Only some kind of men behave like that. I had many friends growing up and we never did that sort of thing, and it always put me off to see people who did.
  - starttoaster 1y ago
    Why did it put you off? Did you not understand the intention behind the words, or were the words unforgiveable despite their intention?
    - sophacles 1y ago
      Not the person you asked, but I think it comes down to past experiences/family environment/etc. Theres poking fun at someone to signal "i like you anyway"... that is real. There's also people who cross the line with their words, and use "i was just joking" as an excuse to be cruel. If someone has experienced a lot of the later, it makes sense that they don't really trust the former.
      - hilux 1y ago
        Very well said.
    - lelandbatey 1y ago
      Not who you asked. With age Ive found myself much more comfortable with folks "being mean, but in a friendly way" as they intend it. When I was younger though, I never understood why folks didn't instead just "say the nice part." Like, if your friends are always glad you join them even if you're always late, making fun of you for being late with a big smile can still feel pretty bad for you. Much better to say "hey please don't be late" and also "we really enjoy you spending time with us." With age Ive come to see that for reasons I don't understand, lots of folks have a massive aversion to saying clearly the things they appreciate about the people around them directly. Eh, their loss.
trinsic2 1y ago
This is a great observation. The concept from article was a eye opener. I always wondered why we give each other shit.
rockercoaster 1y ago
The book Impro treats extensively of what it calls "status games", in the context of building believable, natural scenes of dialog for the stage (or other dramatic purposes) and as a framework for making improvisation interesting. The author muses that the situation of feeling safe playing status games with another person—that is, treating them only as games, not as serious and with real status in play—is perhaps the definition of what friendship is. This could include trading barbs, taking turns playing the bully and the victim, trading playing "high" and "low" roles, jokey one-upsmanship, that kind of thing. Stuff you don't do with non-friends because there's too much risk of being taken seriously, and too much risk of losing actual status or of hurting someone else's status for-real when you didn't intend to.
- hilux 1y ago
  OMG. The section (and one central page) in that book about status is one of the most insightful and meaningful things I have ever read in my entire life! Once you recognize status transactions ... they are absolutely everywhere, in every single interaction.
ratelimitsteve 1y ago
Can I float an adjacent idea? It collapses the anxiety by simply forcing the thing your anxious about to be over. I've definitely had the experience you're describing where someone likes me despite something I'm insecure about. I've also had the experience where someone dislikes me precisely because of something I'm insecure about and tells me as much to my face. Both are better than not knowing.
xivzgrev 1y ago
That's astute. I was always uncomfortable with this kind of joking. I felt threatened. The real reason was that I didn't have a good comeback. Let's say my nose was large, and a friend jokes about it. I need to say something back. And I could not think of anything. A low stakes situation becomes higher stakes than it needs to be. So on their side they see me struggle and probably feel bad, so they don't do it again. But then we are just friends not best friends. Curious how did you learn / practice this?
- wizzwizz4 1y ago
  > And I could not think of anything. I've identified two approaches to this situation. One is to take the insult graciously, as though it's feedback: "Careful: you could put someone's eye out with that!" "Oh! Thanks for the reminder." (adjust the position of your head, as appropriate for your extremely large and dangerous nose) --- The other is to take whatever they said, and exaggerate it. This produces really good comebacks. (It's important to insist upon this point, regardless of any evidence you might receive to the contrary.) "Careful: you could put someone's eye out with that!" "Oh, could I? Well, your entire face is bad." If they respond with another insult, repeat the same strategy. They'll notice what you're doing after the second or third attempt, and then it will turn from "this person's bad at comebacks" into "this person's (pretending to be) bad at comebacks and it's funny". "My face is bad? Is that the best you could come up with?" "Your face is so bad that it makes everyone else's faces bad, too." "But… that means your face is also bad." "And whose fault is that? It's your fault. Specifically, the fault of your face. Which is bad." "Still means you've got a big nose." "Well you've got a small nose." "No I don't. We've got the same sized noses." "Thus invalidating your previous aspersion that my nose is unusually large. Who's bad at comebacks now?" "Still you." --- There's a third approach, if the insult is disguised as faux-concern: pretend you're taking it seriously, while exaggerating the characteristic they're concerned about. "Hey, you having trouble seeing past that, mate?" "Oh, no, it's alright: most of my vision is unobstructed." / "I've got some tape in my bag if I need it." / "It's no worse than binoculars."
  - boogieknite 1y ago
    the jerk store called
deleted 1y ago
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lokimedes 1y ago
That may be an interpretation. Another is that many have difficulty regulating their feelings, and “venting” the discomfort in this semi-controlled manner is a socially acceptable release because it invites others to do the same to you, and you all minimize the risk of catastrophic attacks under tension.
- throwaway295729 1y ago
  Yes! I’ve noticed that when people struggle to manage their emotions, it often comes out in a kind of jabbing or teasing way. It’s usually not really about the other person, it’s more a reflection of their own insecurities. For example, the guy jabbing his friend for being short is probably not that tall himself and may feel insecure about it deep down. There could be some unprocessed feelings around it. The genuinely tall person usually couldn’t care less. The thought of making that jab doesn’t really even surface lol
inanutshellus 1y ago
It's a game that allies play in order to prepare for enemies. When played with allies, it connects you to each other and lets you put your guard down (which is perverse to those that don't get it). The same game played with an enemy teaches you to deflect rather than internalize bad-faith insults and teaches you to use wit and words to stand up for yourself, keeping your dignity without violence. ... Also it's a demonstration of equality. e.g. you can't play the game with your boss or your son, but you can play it with your brother and your peers.
throw7 1y ago
True. Back in the day, the mates and I would greet each other by saying, "Hey, fuck you." Then, "No, fuck you.". You can kinda guess it eventually ping pongs louder and funnier. We kind of had to stop when other innocent people would pop in and ask if everything is "ok".
self_awareness 1y ago
My friend group from my school did the same thing, but I've always hated this pattern. Because of exactly this behavior, after finishing school I've decided to intentionally drop some contacts. Maybe I've interpreted it as "I'm better than you, because you're doing X. I'm mentioning this over and over again, because it makes me feel better."
veunes 1y ago
It's the opposite of conditional acceptance, and probably one of the most stabilizing forms of social support you can have
paulryanrogers 1y ago
> My closest groups of friends always make so much fun of each other. We make negative comments about the worst traits about each other That sounds terrible. A candid conversation about our flaws is one thing. IME 'friends' who most often mock each other are just trying to elevate their status in the group, by pushing others down.
hilux 1y ago
Yeah, I don't know about that. I had many people in my life (including close friends and relatives) who continued to be abusive "it's just fun teasing" even after I asked them to stop. They are no longer in my life. I don't miss them even a little bit!
- cortesoft 1y ago
  Anyone who doesn’t stop when asked is not a true friend. I would never tease anyone who didn’t seem to be enjoying it.
luis_cho 1y ago
I once worked at a place where we all called each other “NERD.” One time a person outside the IT circle turned to us in the cafeteria and shouted, “What's up, NERDS?” There was complete silence in the room. I guess only a nerd can call another nerd a nerd.
dotnet00 1y ago
I think this varies a lot depending on the person and the relationship. When I was younger, I couldn't put up with ribbing at all. I always took it as bullying. I still think very negatively of some of the people I was "friends" with at the time due to that. On the other hand, I have ~3 friends I made as an adult that I have been talking to very frequently (with some, daily), for a decade or so, and there, any level of ribbing is fine. I don't think it's about us knowing each other's worst qualities and being fine with it, as a lot of our banter is on things we can't change about ourselves. I think it's just a matter of trust.

YouWhy 1y ago

I find merit with the core point as well the delivery. I wish it was more commonly accepted that choosing not to act is effectively a stand against one's own value system in favor of the value systems of those who do act.

ambicapter 1y ago
It annoys me greatly when people say "I didn't choose [elected official] because I didn't vote at all".

isk517 1y ago

As a person with social anxiety and a fear of being disliked I get to be the person that people love to talk about how much they hate all of the people that don't fear being disliked and all of the ways they are getting either getting screwed by other people or are being screwed by other people. We really deserve the society we live in

NAHWheatCracker 1y ago
That first sentence is hard to grok.
- Etheryte 1y ago
  No kidding, I read your comment first and then wondered how bad could it be. Turns out the whole comment is nearly that one sentence. Sentences are like functions, sometimes you need a really long one, but oftentimes they work better in reasonable chunks.
  - card_zero 1y ago
    Should be "to talk to", I think. Missing a "to". But has an extra "getting".
- pryelluw 1y ago
  Astounding irony.

guerrilla 1y ago

This rings true to me as someone who's overcome most of his social anxiety over the last few years. The last graph is particularly correct. It's about being authentic and being okay with people not liking you. This is especially useful in dating because then you stop being needy (which is unattractive) when you can let go of the outcome and just show someone who you are and if they reject you then you simply realize that they aren't the person you were looking for because you were looking for someone who likes you for who you are. Is the person who wrote the post qualified to say this though? Like are these statements the result of scientific research or just his opinion like my opinion?

aDyslecticCrow 1y ago
It's a opinion piece. But so are must attempted explanations of emotions. How would you even study this? It seems some in the comments resonate and some disagree. So its somewhat useful. One thing i feel missing is the anxiety part of social anxiety. The way the brain colors vague or unclear external (social) signals in default negative ways, in a feedback loop. Not avoiding being disliked or seeking being liked, but simply being unable to quantity it correctly.
- guerrilla 1y ago
  Fair enough but I still don't understand this person's relationship to the subject and why they are so vague about what they do and what their qualifications are on all of their social media.

dmesg 1y ago

Quote: > Why else would someone be so anxious about how others see them? The scientific consensus would tell the author that judgement in humans happens already the moment they see a person and it is immediate, even if the person not doing anything: https://www.nature.com/articles/srep40700 https://www.nature.com/articles/srep40700 >across three studies, we find that first impressions [...] made from thin slices of real-world social behavior by typically-developing observers are not only far less favorable across a range of trait judgments compared to controls Edit: Okay this was completely misunderstood. My point was that the "normal" people in the study immediately internally know if to like or not like a person. Hence why first impressions DO matter the most. Which is why I simply disagree with the argument in the OP that anyone has control over their perception. You also cannot win people over if the most respected person in a group dislikes you. The others will follow boot.

layer8 1y ago
I don’t think the article is about autism.
- dmesg 1y ago
  Curious, yet the most people suffering from anxiety as secondary comorbid psychiatric condition are the depressed, autistic and ADHD sufferers. The article is definitely a mental health topic. A little harmless stage fright before a presentation is not real clinical generalized anxiety and affects most normal people.
  - nemomarx 1y ago
    You can be diagnosed with GAD or social anxiety disorders without being autistic. The comorbidity isn't total. I think there's a good question about whether people can tell you're anxious at a glance but worrying about that will make your anxiety much more visible.
    - dmesg 1y ago
      > I think there's a good question about whether people can tell you're anxious at a glance Which is why I linked the nature article? It's plain obvious an interesting point I tried to make that "normal" people will instantly perceive someone as likeable or unlikeable. Which the article in the OP goes great lengths to discuss. I mean I can live with people immediately going against my point, I just see they didn't even gave it 5 minutes of thought. Which is not necessarily directed at you, I cannot possibly convince anyone and reply to anyone at the same time.

ryandrake 1y ago

Off topic, but my eye twitched at the word "agentic." This word has infested every computing and software discussion as a buzzword, to the point where I am having a visceral reaction just seeing it. Even though it's used appropriately here, I have to admit I retched a little while reading. So tired of hearing "agentic."

stronglikedan 1y ago

I can dig it. I'm constantly and annoyingly replaying every social interaction in my head for days, and even longer when they're (in my perception) bad. Why would I want to go out, if I might subject myself to more of that? (I do go out and continue to subject myself to that, but nowhere near as frequently as my more social friends.)

Rumudiez 1y ago
I do this too. I’ve been led to believe it’s a symptom of OCD, which I absolutely express in other ways

elevatortrim 1y ago

I have social anxiety and it is completely unrelated to likeableness. I do not think people would not like me, I do not try to avoid people disliking me, that's not the point at all. Quite the opposite, I'm sure I'm an interesting person and I'm confident people would like me if I could take the step. Problem is, there is something that physically prevents me from saying "Hi!" to a stranger. I literally cannot get myself to take a step towards them and I can't explain why that is, because I do not understand it myself. Also quite interestingly (to me), this completely goes away under certain circumstances: (1) If I take around 2-3 units of alcohol and it is not a totally alien environment (it would not help if I was in a bar alone with complete strangers). (2) If more than about 70% of people in the room are people I know well. Then I do not feel anxious about approaching the remaining 30%.

thewebguyd 1y ago
I have the same exact experience as you. It's like some weird physical barrier, but I can't really articulate the feeling or explain it. The exposure therapy method here doesn't work because "just do it a bunch of times and you'll get more comfortable" isn't even possible for me, I can't "just do it." For me though, it takes more than a few beers to be comfortable approaching someone. I'd have to be completely sloshed and even then it's a struggle. The only time I didn't experience the seemingly physical barrier was in college when a friend convinced me to try MDMA and we went out. I became almost the exact opposite of who I am with the social anxiety. I was the most extraverted, outgoing person in our group quite literally chatting up anyone and everyone that I crossed paths with without any care or inhibition around it. No other pharmaceutical has been able to cure it for me like that, and it's a bit depressing because I liked that version of myself and I'd like to be able to be that person again without an incredibly dangerous illegal substance.
- quesera 1y ago
  Make your own decisions of course, but make sure you are fully educated about the risks of MDMA. It is not generally considered to be a dangerous substance. It is illegal though, and moderation is always prudent.

brad0 1y ago

I've been reading through the book The Courage to be Disliked recently. I'm not a big fan of the writing style of the book, but some of the ideas in the book appear in this post too. One of the concepts in the book is being comfortable with being disliked. If instead you're trying to avoid being disliked, you're effectively subject to other people's whims. When you look at it from that perspective, that's a pretty stressful experience!

ChrisLakin 1y ago
> I'm not a big fan of the writing style of the book OP here. I address that in How I'd rewrite The Courage to be Disliked: https://chrislakin.blog/courage https://chrislakin.blog/courage
- Etheryte 1y ago
  I can't help but feel that these criticisms, like many others of the book, are mostly down to cultural misunderstanding. The writing style of the book is deeply Japanese and that's off-putting for many, myself included. But for some, it's to the point where the forest is missed for the trees. I've read a few translations of it and some do a better job at conveying the idea than others, but they all feel clunky without the cultural context. A good example of what I mean is your first suggestion, choosing a less triggering explanation for teleology. The idea of trigger words as we understand them, and the need to shield people from them, is not a universal cultural phenomenon. The suggestion feels a bit like visiting a country where they drive on the left side of the road and suggesting they try and drive on the right instead. Maybe the suggestion is good! But maybe not, without cultural context, the suggestion reads mostly like just asking for things to be made more familiar to you.
- brad0 1y ago
  Thanks for the link! I read through it and agree with most of your points, especially the parts about presence and separation of tasks. I personally liked the intellectual aspect of it, though I also agree that the emotional component should be there as well.
immibis 1y ago

abxyz 1y ago

The problem with using clinical phrases to describe normal behavior is demonstrated in this post. "Social anxiety" has a specific clinical meaning that is not covered by this post. The post is actually discussing a very natural and rational nervousness that normal people have in social situations. The post is providing a way of thinking about that nervousness that can help reduce it, for the nervous person's benefit, and it's great if that works, but it's not addressing social anxiety. Social anxiety is a condition that cannot be thought away, you cannot rationalize social anxiety nor can it be represented as a cost/benefit analysis of risk of being disliked vs. reward of being liked. You can feel socially anxious without having social anxiety. You can be depressed without having depression. You will be depressed after your beloved pet dies. You will be socially anxious walking into a room full of people you haven't met before.

ants_everywhere 1y ago
I agree with you as a general rule. But this is actually pretty close to how Social Anxiety is defined. It's about the fear of being negatively evaluated or embarrassed. For example the DSM definition https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK519712/table/ch3.t12/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK519712/table/ch3.t12/ or the Mayo Clinic explainer page https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/social-anxiety-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20353561 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/social-anxiet.... I think what this blog post is getting at is describing for people the difference between fear of negative evaluation and positive desire to be liked. One thing the post misses is that sometimes these are learned behaviors that come from a lifetime of experience being disliked for no obvious reason. For example, sometimes outgoing autistic children develop social anxiety after their peers reject them repeatedly.
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- smeej 1y ago
  > sometimes outgoing autistic children develop social anxiety after their peers reject them repeatedly. As a middle-aged woman who can't figure out what the benefits would be that would outweigh the costs of pursuing formal diagnosis at this stage, I related a lot harder to that line than I wanted to. I've always been extraverted. I always do fine in new interactions, because I'm chronically interested in anything I don't already know well, especially if someone else is passionate about it. Most of my first meetings with people quickly become conversations where I'm listening attentively and asking interested questions about some niche thing they love and their friends and family members are sick of hearing about. I get stellar reviews on initial conversations at unstructured social events. And yet I spend the vast majority of my time at home by myself because after about the fourth interaction, something about me registers as "off" to other people and they start to distance themselves from me. I have never understood why. I'm not socially anxious, at least not in the typical "can't get out and meet new people" way. I just can't take the never-ending hope-rejection loop anymore.

stared 1y ago

There are various types of insecurity. A book "How to attract women through honesty" by Mark Manson (I think the only book in dating genre I recommend without some caveats, and recommend regardless on one's gender or orientation) has a lot about insecurity vs security (or: neediness vs non-neediness). There was one passage that although most insecure people are in this "I don't want be hated" or "let anyone like/love me", there are also some people that are obsessed with everyone liking them. It has some different symptoms, but also stems from insecurity. I guess you know friends (or maybe you are one yourself) who play too hard to be liked by everyone. Also, there is an interesting case of super-popular people, who are super-needy, even though at the first glance they don't look so. What's is characteristic, though, it is that everything starts to fall apart when they lose their spotlight. (Think about actors or musicians who, after they are no longer as popular as they used to be, drown in depression and drugs.)

rw_panic0_0 1y ago

different ppl get different reasons for social anxiety bro. it's not tech you can't just say that mental problem Y is 100% because of X

strenholme 1y ago

As friends of mine who I consider popular have suggested to me “don’t give a fuck what people think about you”, and this blog says that in a much longer form. As someone who was extensively bullied as a kid, including with physical violence, my social anxiety went through the roof and it has taken me a long time and awareness of my trauma to heal from those wounds to the point I no longer have social anxiety. The world is sadly full of miserable cruel people who want to put me down so they can no longer have to deal with their own feelings of inferiority. I have made friends who truly love me for who I am, who give me space to talk, who do not constantly put me down in cruel ways (yes, I once had “friends” like that), and who truly care about my feelings, but it has taken a lot of work to get there. I can now sniff out someone who is starting to engage in bullying behavior, and block them from being in my life.

rexpop 1y ago

> being socially anxious tends to make you less likeable Citation needed.

flax 1y ago

Neither "wanting to be liked" or "wanting to avoid being disliked" rings true to me, at least as applied to my own social anxiety. I want to avoid being thought of at all. The idea of being liked is just as anxiety-producing as being disliked. Possibly more so. Every relationship with another person, positive or negative, is another cognitive burden to maintain. I would vastly prefer most of my interactions to just remain at the default/stranger level where I can re-use the same anticipatory model for most people I deal with. Tangentially related, I have for some time had a desire to write short stories, but the anxiety around revealing anything that might expose my inner self is probably the biggest reason why I don't. I was reading a collection of short stories yesterday and came upon Michael Swanwick's "Slow Life". It struck me that it shares more than a few similarities to his "The Very Pulse of the Machine": Woman astronaut on a moon in the outer solar system is placed in lethal danger, encounters alien intelligence that communicates by reading/influencing minds, she isn't sure whether the communication is genuine or hallucinated, eventually the alien intelligence provides a long-shot resolution to save her. Maybe Swanwick just had another story to tell with some of the same beats. It happens. Or maybe it's like bare feet in a Tarantino movie. The point is, the idea of someone examining my own stories and thinking such thoughts about me is extremely distressing. It's not being disliked that I try to avoid. I'm trying to avoid the baseline stress of social interaction. I recognize the irony of opening up about this in writing. If you have something to say _about me_, please don't.

sixo 1y ago
The weird thing about "The idea of being liked is just as anxiety-producing as being disliked" is that it is an incorrect prediction of reality: actually being liked would. Thinking about it is really a different thing: it overestimates the stakes involved, it mistakenly invents "ideas of people" to do the liking which do not behave like actual people, and is unable to build any self-esteem by imagining people liking you because these imagined people are under your our control; being liked by your own imagined people doesn't "count" the way being liked by real people would... The human mind is not really designed to handle under-socialization well, and seems to fill in the empty space with imaginary figures which fail to meet its social needs. Taken outside its natural tribal operating regime, it bugs out in all kinds of strange ways. > the idea of someone examining my own stories and thinking such thoughts about me is extremely distressing This is a very familiar feeling to me, and in my experience it actually is a fear of being disliked, or more specifically about not being able to control others' reactions to me. But the fear is so great and unapproachable that the mind cordons it "out of sight" of conscious feeling. It becomes better to not be thought of than to expose myself to the possibility of others seeing me poorly, especially if I'm not able to defend myself and make the case for my being seen with grace. I suspect that it is over-exposure to human meanness and judgement and under-exposure to kindness and grace which brings about this expectation of others' dispositions towards oneself; this perhaps is the reason for the Christian injunction that humans not judge one another--it guards against this particular failure mode of the social mind.

JumpinJack_Cash 1y ago

Social anxiety has to be correlated with deepness, aka the more shallow a person is the less social anxiety they present. Also some fixation with a person/ small group of people in particular and trying to win them over. The less socially anxious people cast a big net and that will cause people who'd like them and dislike them but the net is so big that they simply stick with those who like them.

codersfocus 1y ago
The reason you feel that way is because social anxiety correlates with anhedonia. The person doesn't engage in playfulness which is the basis of social connection across mammals. Because they aren't playful, you perceive this as "deepness." This cognitive fallacy connecting deepness / seriousness to substance, and connecting playfulness to triviality and frivolity has unfortunately affected me (I remember arguing it in high school English class!) Consciously adopting a "playful" attitude fixes my social anxiety, and adds charisma and humor to my character.
- JumpinJack_Cash 1y ago
  I have never seen a place more playful than a roulette or a craps table in Vegas, people high five each other, they form groups they trash the casino when the bank wins... but it is very shallow and not very deep, it lasts a couple of hours and then each of the participant go separate ways.
quesera 1y ago
I think this is deceptive. Superficial interactions seem less anxious, but they are not necessarily representative of what's going on inside the minds of the participants. Learning to be superficial in superficial situations is a good way to fake your way through social anxiety. It isn't necessarily rewarding in itself, but it does smooth over some otherwise awkward scenarios. Maintaining the balance is critical, and an important aspect of social maturity. (It's a waste of time, yes! But being comfortable with a little bit of social inefficiency is essential to casual interactions which often have beneficial repercussions.)

seemaze 1y ago

>There's this popular idea that socially anxious folks are just dying to be liked Really? I've never come across that idea. If fact, in my experience 'social anxiety' is almost always driven by the fear of failure, not the ambition of uncertain success. I would counter that the opposite of 'social anxiety' - 'social vanity' - is more indicative of a deep desire to be liked.

keernan 1y ago

I've struggled with social anxiety for years. Just yesterday I discovered that I am unable to visualize mental images such as faces (aphantasia). I have always struggled in social settings where I people will be attending whom I've met on multiple but infrequent prior occasions - and I will recognize that I know them from somewhere but will be unable to place them or their name. This has happened for 40 years when I see my wife's cousins at funerals every 2-3 years (but otherwise never see them). They are so friendly and nice. Smiling and hugging me. But they have to realize that I am never able to use their name because I can't remember it - nor am I able to make inquiries about work or life because I remember nothing about them. The same happens when I, as a middle manager, travel for multiple day business trips to the home office. It is incredibly embarrassing which causes me to avoid such settings which in turn makes me seem aloof and unfriendly.

quesera 1y ago
Some people who struggle with this maintain a "personal CRM" system. Write down some names and notes about people. Re-read them when you're traveling to a place where you're likely to encounter them. Just writing the notes might be enough to solidify the memories for you, but re-reading surely will. Salespeople do this to feign familiarity, and it's artificial. Don't do that. People you see every few years will not expect you to remember their kids' names or birthdays. Specifics are often too intimate. But starting with their names, and building on with the simulation of a general memory or two (e.g. "are you still doing a lot of traveling for work?") are fine.

bananalychee 1y ago

I think the premise, backed up by a couple of random tweets, is questionable, but glossing over that, the conclusion is more or less "just be yourself and you'll have more success". Maybe. But I feel like it's pinning social anxiety purely on neurotic safety-seeking behavior, which is superficial. Surely generalized social anxiety is an unhealthy over-correction, but some personality types have inherently more success socially than others, or in blunt terms, some people are more likeable than others. If you're socially compatible with 90% of the population, it's not hard to ignore the 10% you don't meld with, but swap the numbers and the negative feedback will be overwhelming and makes the majority of social interactions anxiety-inducing. I guess that's why the anonymous Internet is full of disagreeable people.

LorenPechtel 1y ago
I find "just be yourself" insulting. It implies that the problem is attempting to fake it coming off wrong--it's all in your head. It ignores the reality that some people fit in better than others.

shitter 1y ago

This is part of it, but everyone to some degree has discomfort with being disliked and will do things to avoid it. At least in my experience, social anxiety is much more about the cognitive distortions that convince you others dislike you, when they may in fact be neutral or even have a positive view of you. Just as one example, when I'm interacting with someone who I haven't reached a certain level of comfortability with, I'm highly aware of and sensitive to their reactions to me in terms of what they're saying, their tone, their micro facial expressions, etc., and I perceive any small negative reaction as a sign that they don't like me. This usually isn't true! But it ironically has the effect of inducing self-sabotaging avoidant behaviors in me, such as over-censoring of what I say and just general awkwardness around them, which makes it much more likely they will end up disliking me.

bambax 1y ago

Social anxiety is what happens when the effort to appear acceptable to polite society feels overwhelming -- and pointless at the same time.

zkmon 1y ago

A person's existence is made up of what others think about the person and how the person relates to them. There is hardly anything else to make up the existence for the person. You are just a collection of perceptions about you, and your relations with the world. Even your money and assets are only as a valuable as seen by the world around you. You look trendy and stylish only because you align with the trends of the place and time. Your physical fitness is meaningful only at your place and time. A village woman in a third world can outlive many gym goers of the Western world. There is nothing else left to be considered as your absolute existence outside of how you relate with the world.

smeej 1y ago
Have you no interior life at all? Nothing that matters to you even if nobody else knows or cares that it does? This is one of the bleakest, most discouraging comments I think I've ever read, and it's hard for me (in a sad way) to believe anyone might actually mean it.
- zkmon 1y ago
  There is nothing bleak or discouraging in what I said. This is true for even inanimate things on Earth or in the Universe. There is hardly any absolute existence of anything. Try to describe an alien life form. All your description is nothing but list of relations between that life from and things that you know about on the Earth. Things like, size, color, weight, shape - everything is a relation to some referential unit or frame. Things come into existence by relating themselves to the already existing worldly things. If a thing can't be described, it simply doesn't exist.

poemxo 1y ago

As someone with apparent social anxiety, I don't really care about being disliked either. Being left alone is the overriding priority by far, it is not an aversion to being disliked, although being disliked is not the best since it's still attention. If someone came to me and tried to mentor me about unlearning my discomfort with being disliked, I would feel like I'm being manipulated and I would make sure to avoid that person.

mock-possum 1y ago
Yeah same here. I like people, I like me - what I don’t like is the expectation that I essentially perform improv for others when I don’t want to. The problem is being observed, and expected to perform. It feels bad. Being left alone, with no risk of social interaction, feels really really good. It’s a literal relief from the constant energy expenditure that is acting out socializing. I’d prefer to avoid being disliked - or at any rate, disliked without good reason - but as you say, that’s mostly because then I’d be wasting even more of my time managing interactions with (or more likely avoiding interactions with) those who dislike me. My god what a waste of energy, how I abhor it.
- CooCooCaCha 1y ago
  I’ve never been good at banter so this speaks to me. But it’s interesting to think that when people like you, they tend to want more from you and that leads to social obligations. And you can either go along with these social obligations or decline and come off as rude. So in a sense, social connections give people some amount of control over your life and that can feel restricting and draining sometimes. Even something as simple as a text message can be thought of as a task that someone gave you without your consent. And if you don’t respond within a certain time window then you’re rude and risk damaging the relationship. Or if you respond poorly that can damage it as well. Sometimes I wonder if this is social anxiety or just being extra aware of the realities of life.

guluarte 1y ago

social anxiety i think it is more the fear of breaking your own perception of yourself

sublinear 1y ago
This is so true. All of the other comments and the article itself fail to take into account the ego. At the end of the day you can only be sure that you are judging yourself. There's nothing else it could be about.

AtlasBarfed 1y ago

It's a flight instinct, it's due to danger. Isn't that obvious? Gangs of humans are dangerous if you don't know them, historically. Murderously dangerous. Hobbes is right, society is a thin veneer.

deleted 1y ago

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nfw2 1y ago

"Social anxiety is more about the fear of being disliked than the desire to be liked" is a better way to summarize the gist of the article than the actual title. And the claim put this way seems pretty obvious.

stldev 1y ago

Anyone who has had to contend with social anxiety should be insulted reading this. Author is trying to frame social anxiety as "rational risk aversion"; it's not. Social anxiety isn't a strategy— it's your brain misfiring and treating normal social interactions as more serious threats. It's not about being liked. It's not about being disliked. At all. Reframing avoidance as "successfully avoiding dislike" just repackages the dysfunction with a motivational poster.

veunes 1y ago

I like the comparison to financial risk-aversion. The idea that social anxiety is a system working as designed, just with a different optimization function (avoid downside vs pursue upside), fits well with how behavior often emerges from misaligned incentives rather than "malfunction."

Mithriil 1y ago

I like seeing something along the line of constructive logic in the wild (i.e. not (not p) != p).

esseph 1y ago

What if my social anxiety is based on not liking other people? :)

ratmeadow 1y ago

The way my psychologist explained social anxiety to me was it's based off an innate system in our brain which is sensitive to social rejection. Rejection is potentially very bad because that might mean we get kicked out of our group and die (at least that is true thousands of years ago). Anxiety is overthinking and subconsciously trying to control all the outcomes to reduce rejection. And this includes avoidance as a response. This social anxiety pattern can be reinforced over time with negative or even neutral experiences, particularly through childhood. The system becomes attuned to unpleasant confirming evidence. Some brains may be particularly prone to this too. I think this explanation is consistent with all the experiences people are sharing in this thread. The core model at work is still the social rejection system, even if the exact behaviours and rationalisations you have are a little different. And the treatment is exposure therapy to get more neutral and positive experiences. Which can be very hard because your brain can be very strongly configured to avoid rejection. You may have to start very gently from steps which may not be particularly challenging (e.g. have a friend in a new coffee shop).