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My views may not carry much influence, but I’ve argued this point for years—and not only about ADHD, but about many psychiatric conditions, including Autism. F

My views may not carry much influence, but I’ve argued this point for years—and not only about ADHD, but about many psychiatric conditions, including Autism. For what it is worth, I have ADHD -- 'cousin' disorder to Autism. Like Autism, ADHD has an array of presentations. I hold the belief that diagnostic labels are simply abstractions for grouping clusters of vague and often arbitrary symptoms. In that sense, many labels are tautological. For example, ADHD/Autism is defined by a set of behaviors, yet people are said to have ADHD/Autism because they exhibit that exact same set of behaviors. From my perspective, conditions like ADHD and Autism are unusual conditions in terms of their pathology. I suspect some autistic people might agree when I say this: ADHD (and certain forms of Autism) seem to be treated less for the benefit of the individual and more for the benefit of those around them. Compare this to depression -- a condition where the primary suffering is internal -- experienced by the person themselves. With ADHD and Autism, the person is not necessarily suffering directly, but their behaviors often cause difficulty for others, and in turn those others impose suffering on the individual. Treatment, then, improves behavior (somewhat), which first benefits those around the person, and only indirectly improves the individual's own quality of life. I may be struggling to articulate it perfectly, but I can’t shake the sense that there’s something unsettling about the pathology of these conditions. It has become almost imperative that I take amphetamines every single day. A practice that is far from pleasant, to say the least. Technically, no one forces me to medicate myself, yet the pressures of society make it feel obligatory. I alter myself not primarily for my own sake, but because society has deemed my natural state defective, disruptive, or unworthy. Treatment to me seems less about addressing my own suffering and more about making me tolerable to others.

greygoo222 1y ago
Treated for others' benefit? Your opinion has to be in the extreme minority here, at least for ADHD. ADHD is hell. Can't sleep and eat properly, can't focus on your work and hobbies, can't maintain your relationships, constantly losing shit... everyone I know is incredibly grateful to be on medication.
- hirvi74 1y ago
  > ADHD is Hell I am well aware. > Can't sleep and eat properly Would be less of a problem if I was not forced to conform to society's expectations. I also have been diagnosed with Delayed Sleep-Phase Disorder, so I am also well aware. Also what are two of the most common side-effects of stimulants? Sleep disturbances and reduced appetite. Also, what type of eating issues are directly due to ADHD and not a comorbid disorder? I skip meals a lot due to laziness, but I wouldn't say it causes any dysfunction in my life. > can't focus on your work Who is more negatively affected by this behavior: your employer or you? > and hobbies So what if I struggle to commit to one hobby or finish a hobby? I do my hobbies for my enjoyment, not some ulterior motive. I do not think there is anything pathological about being a jack-of-all trades type or not committing to some hobby. > can't maintain your relationships Which I believe is direct evidence of how our symptoms affect others and not inherently oneself. > everyone I know is incredibly grateful to be on medication I remember feeling the same way once. I have been taking medication for over a decade now. Grateful is not the word I would personally use. I would say that I made a deal with the Devil just to feel some sense of respite.
  - greygoo222 1y ago
    Symptoms and side effects can vary a lot between people, you could've gotten unlucky. > Who is more negatively affected by this behavior: your employer or you? I like my job. I think I am making the world a better place, and I would choose to do this even if I was wealthy enough to never work. When I am unable to do my job because my ego does not align with my id, it makes me angry and disappointed. > I do not think there is anything pathological about being a jack-of-all trades type or not committing to some hobby. Nor do I. I do, however, think there is something pathological about sitting on the floor for three hours doing nothing because you're procrastinating on deciding what book to read next, or debugging a 3D printer, or replying to an invitation (or because you need to shower, or cook, ...). This behavior is not enjoyable at all. It sounds like you primarily experience ADHD as getting in the way of things you have to do, rather than things you want to do. I'm sure that sucks in its own way, but the grass looks greener from over here. > Which I believe is direct evidence of how our symptoms affect others and not inherently oneself. I inherently care about other people, and when I let them down, it makes me sad. Perhaps you prefer to define all instances of your friends having desires and expectations around your relationship as oppression, that when I am upset I missed an important event it is because I am being brainwashed by society. But I think this is a small, selfish way of viewing the world. Many traits can get in the way of being a good friend (surely you know someone who is prone to anger, or envy, or insecurity), and if you are a good friend, you try to mitigate them. > I would say that I made a deal with the Devil just to feel some sense of respite. Next time you see the Devil, do me a favor and ask him if he has any other opportunities.
nonethewiser 1y ago
>ADHD (and certain forms of Autism) seem to be treated less for the benefit of the individual and more for the benefit of those around them. Compare this to depression -- a condition where the primary suffering is internal -- experienced by the person themselves. With ADHD and Autism, the person is not necessarily suffering directly, but their behaviors often cause difficulty for others, and in turn those others impose suffering on the individual. I think it would be helpful to specifically characterize what forms you are talking about. Paint a picture of such a case. Because the forms my mind jump to are definitely suffering themselves and I dont want to strawman you. Sensory overload, unmanageability, etc. Someone who may be perfectly content to obsess over some niche interest but cant take care of themselves because they are inconsistent at work. Cant pay bills, neglected health issues, etc. I can begin to imagine how someone might characterize this as you have but I think that would be quite flawed and I'm not sure this is what you're talking about.
- hirvi74 1y ago
  Sorry, I tried to preface that I would butcher my explanation, and it appears I was correct in that assumption. I also apologize if this answer is no better. I likely lack the mental acuity to formulate these thoughts well. To be clear, I’m not denying that some people experience direct suffering like sensory overload, daily dysfunction, etc.. Though I would argue much of this is somewhat expected when one lives in a society that wasn't designed around edge cases (nor am I saying such a society is truly possible at our scale). My point is about a different subset of cases, like mine and say individuals with high-functioning Autism, where the suffering is mainly socially imposed. The pressure to medicate or "fix" ourselves comes less from unbearable symptoms and more from others' expectations that we be more tolerable or productive. That was the unsettling part I was trying to get at. I was trying to make a point about a little compassion from others would go a long way. I was not trying to absolve myself and others like me of our responsibilities/symptoms. Often times, the symptoms of these disorders are not treated as symptoms of a disorder, but rather, direct flaws of one's character. All in all, I find the difficulties hard to describe unless one has lived the same or a similar experience. Whether or not one has a disorder does not make them less of a human being. Thus, I do not think it is a coincidence that depression, anxiety, substance abuse, and suicide are highly correlated with disorders like ADHD and high functioning Autism, and I do not think a lot of those comorbid issues stem purely from some kind of internal (hypothetical) brain difference. Does that make any more sense?
dustbunny 1y ago
> those others impose suffering on the individual There are so many people out there sacrificing their own mental and physical health for their children or their loved ones or their students or patients to simply have a few hours of calm happiness every day. And you flippantly dismiss them. You paint them with a broad negative brush. This is an ice cold, selfish, naive and incorrect statement.
- hirvi74 1y ago
  You've misread me. I'm not dismissing caregivers, but rather, I am pointing out that treatment often serves their needs before the needs of the individual. Psychiatry too often prioritizes making people tolerable over making them well.

greygoo222 1y ago

Treated for others' benefit? Your opinion has to be in the extreme minority here, at least for ADHD. ADHD is hell. Can't sleep and eat properly, can't focus on your work and hobbies, can't maintain your relationships, constantly losing shit... everyone I know is incredibly grateful to be on medication.

hirvi74 1y ago
> ADHD is Hell I am well aware. > Can't sleep and eat properly Would be less of a problem if I was not forced to conform to society's expectations. I also have been diagnosed with Delayed Sleep-Phase Disorder, so I am also well aware. Also what are two of the most common side-effects of stimulants? Sleep disturbances and reduced appetite. Also, what type of eating issues are directly due to ADHD and not a comorbid disorder? I skip meals a lot due to laziness, but I wouldn't say it causes any dysfunction in my life. > can't focus on your work Who is more negatively affected by this behavior: your employer or you? > and hobbies So what if I struggle to commit to one hobby or finish a hobby? I do my hobbies for my enjoyment, not some ulterior motive. I do not think there is anything pathological about being a jack-of-all trades type or not committing to some hobby. > can't maintain your relationships Which I believe is direct evidence of how our symptoms affect others and not inherently oneself. > everyone I know is incredibly grateful to be on medication I remember feeling the same way once. I have been taking medication for over a decade now. Grateful is not the word I would personally use. I would say that I made a deal with the Devil just to feel some sense of respite.
- greygoo222 1y ago
  Symptoms and side effects can vary a lot between people, you could've gotten unlucky. > Who is more negatively affected by this behavior: your employer or you? I like my job. I think I am making the world a better place, and I would choose to do this even if I was wealthy enough to never work. When I am unable to do my job because my ego does not align with my id, it makes me angry and disappointed. > I do not think there is anything pathological about being a jack-of-all trades type or not committing to some hobby. Nor do I. I do, however, think there is something pathological about sitting on the floor for three hours doing nothing because you're procrastinating on deciding what book to read next, or debugging a 3D printer, or replying to an invitation (or because you need to shower, or cook, ...). This behavior is not enjoyable at all. It sounds like you primarily experience ADHD as getting in the way of things you have to do, rather than things you want to do. I'm sure that sucks in its own way, but the grass looks greener from over here. > Which I believe is direct evidence of how our symptoms affect others and not inherently oneself. I inherently care about other people, and when I let them down, it makes me sad. Perhaps you prefer to define all instances of your friends having desires and expectations around your relationship as oppression, that when I am upset I missed an important event it is because I am being brainwashed by society. But I think this is a small, selfish way of viewing the world. Many traits can get in the way of being a good friend (surely you know someone who is prone to anger, or envy, or insecurity), and if you are a good friend, you try to mitigate them. > I would say that I made a deal with the Devil just to feel some sense of respite. Next time you see the Devil, do me a favor and ask him if he has any other opportunities.

nonethewiser 1y ago

>ADHD (and certain forms of Autism) seem to be treated less for the benefit of the individual and more for the benefit of those around them. Compare this to depression -- a condition where the primary suffering is internal -- experienced by the person themselves. With ADHD and Autism, the person is not necessarily suffering directly, but their behaviors often cause difficulty for others, and in turn those others impose suffering on the individual. I think it would be helpful to specifically characterize what forms you are talking about. Paint a picture of such a case. Because the forms my mind jump to are definitely suffering themselves and I dont want to strawman you. Sensory overload, unmanageability, etc. Someone who may be perfectly content to obsess over some niche interest but cant take care of themselves because they are inconsistent at work. Cant pay bills, neglected health issues, etc. I can begin to imagine how someone might characterize this as you have but I think that would be quite flawed and I'm not sure this is what you're talking about.

hirvi74 1y ago
Sorry, I tried to preface that I would butcher my explanation, and it appears I was correct in that assumption. I also apologize if this answer is no better. I likely lack the mental acuity to formulate these thoughts well. To be clear, I’m not denying that some people experience direct suffering like sensory overload, daily dysfunction, etc.. Though I would argue much of this is somewhat expected when one lives in a society that wasn't designed around edge cases (nor am I saying such a society is truly possible at our scale). My point is about a different subset of cases, like mine and say individuals with high-functioning Autism, where the suffering is mainly socially imposed. The pressure to medicate or "fix" ourselves comes less from unbearable symptoms and more from others' expectations that we be more tolerable or productive. That was the unsettling part I was trying to get at. I was trying to make a point about a little compassion from others would go a long way. I was not trying to absolve myself and others like me of our responsibilities/symptoms. Often times, the symptoms of these disorders are not treated as symptoms of a disorder, but rather, direct flaws of one's character. All in all, I find the difficulties hard to describe unless one has lived the same or a similar experience. Whether or not one has a disorder does not make them less of a human being. Thus, I do not think it is a coincidence that depression, anxiety, substance abuse, and suicide are highly correlated with disorders like ADHD and high functioning Autism, and I do not think a lot of those comorbid issues stem purely from some kind of internal (hypothetical) brain difference. Does that make any more sense?

dustbunny 1y ago

> those others impose suffering on the individual There are so many people out there sacrificing their own mental and physical health for their children or their loved ones or their students or patients to simply have a few hours of calm happiness every day. And you flippantly dismiss them. You paint them with a broad negative brush. This is an ice cold, selfish, naive and incorrect statement.

hirvi74 1y ago
You've misread me. I'm not dismissing caregivers, but rather, I am pointing out that treatment often serves their needs before the needs of the individual. Psychiatry too often prioritizes making people tolerable over making them well.