6 ms·

I’m of two minds about these proposed changes. On the subject of surveilling foreign students without warrants and demanding schools hand over data when asked,

I’m of two minds about these proposed changes. On the subject of surveilling foreign students without warrants and demanding schools hand over data when asked, fuck off. Students - domestic or international - deserve a campus where they can explore new ideas without fear of reprisal at home or abroad. This mandate is reprehensible, as is the mandate that these marketplaces of ideas demand students listen to viewpoints they consistently rebuff (conservatism, namely). Free speech means people are allowed to talk, not that others are required to listen or attend. On the other items, namely tuition caps and restrictions on foreign students…yeah, hate to say I agree with those, but I do. A domestic education system should prioritize domestic students, but the lax tuition rules in the USA has meant tuition surged to fleece foreign students at the expense of domestic students. Tuition is way too high given the return on investment, and the allowance of theoretically unlimited foreign enrollment means colleges don’t have to worry about domestic enrollment at all if they’re elite enough. This is the part I’ve been dreading, to be honest. Fuck the current regime, even if I agree with a few technical points along the way. They’re couching what I feel are decent policy changes in xenophobia and bigotry, which I refuse to abide by.

maxerickson 1y ago
The student paying expensive foreign tuition may increase resources rather than displacing anyone.
- Hizonner 1y ago
  Foreign students are in fact a major "profit center" for a lot of universities, and do in fact subsidize domestic students.
  - stego-tech 1y ago
    I will concede that I hear and see that narrative a lot, but short of compelling universities to disclose how that higher tuition is actually spent on subsidies for domestic students (what kinds of subsidies? How many benefitted? From what backgrounds? To what extent? Etc), I’m still hugely suspect on it.
    - Hizonner 1y ago
      > what kinds of subsidies Resident tuition at state schools is below their average per-student expenditures. That's a subsidy from which they all benefit. It's enabled, in part, by the fact that foreign student tuition is above the schools' average per-student expenditures.
    - ModernMech 1y ago
      As someone who is familiar with the budget for a large university, I'll tell you that yes, it is true that these foreign monies help keep tuition low for domestic students. It's not through any subsidies or formal program of any kind, just the fact that if that cashflow didn't exist we would have to raise our tuition prices to keep delivering the same level of service. I'll give you an example. I teach at a not well known school but it's got a nice enough reputation for undergrads. Our MS program is nothing to speak of though. Our MS class consists almost entirely of foreign students from Asia who pay full tuition just so they can get a stepping stone into America. They come to America, study at our program, then go to work in big tech firms around the country with a degree from a US university, which opens doors for them. For the university's part, that full tuition money is where any "profit" could possibly come from if the university were a business -- every other functional aspect we have from UG education to PhD education to research is break-even or operating at a loss. But because foreign students are so eager to come to America that they are willing to pay full tuition, the MS program actually makes money. And because the University is nonprofit, we use that money to keep costs lower and to fill in budget gaps in other areas. The upshot is if all that money dries up, because the US is no longer a desirable place for foreign students to want to live and learn and work, then that means the budget gaps will have to be filled in by raising tuition on... you guessed it: domestic students. So I don't know whether you believe any of that or not, but that's how it works at least in one instance.
      - JeksonFerguson 1y ago
        [dead]
      - stego-tech 1y ago
        I genuinely appreciate the shared perspective and information! This is, admittedly, an area I lack concrete data in because it’s not required to be public in many cases, and I have no way to effectively judge the accuracy or transparency of the data that is; your sharing helps fill in gaps, which I’m appreciative of. Alright then, let’s assume I am woefully mistaken in my understanding of how international student tuition affects domestic student tuition. There’s still the reality of college tuition grossly outstripping inflation and COLA, even accounting for the prior government subsidies on tuition older generations enjoyed. Yet despite the cost of tuition skyrocketing, the return on investment continues to dwindle - namely that credentials alone no longer guarantee even a middle class existence, nevermind a potential ticket into the upper classes. In that context, why does tuition remain so high, and how would you recommend we address the issues of tuition cost relative to ROI? Should we raise admission standards to deter enrollment and divert students to tradework? Should we eliminate credentials from non-specialized roles, thereby further depressing the ROI and thus future enrollment? Or is the answer just baking-in a college education into primary schooling, and making a Bachelor’s gratis via government subsidy at state/public schools? Genuinely curious where you’d recommend I focus my efforts or learning on, because you have a better grasp on this than I do.
quantummagic 1y ago
> Students - domestic or international - deserve a campus where they can explore new ideas without fear of reprisal at home or abroad. That's a bit naive in today's world. Not every person who identifies as a student is there with the best of intentions, or without ulterior motives, some even being directed by foreign governments. To make them off limits from scrutiny, is to leave your door wide open, and susceptible to abuse and manipulation by enemies.
- stego-tech 1y ago
  I’m talking undergrad campuses, not research departments (which is often where this critique is lobbed towards). Obviously students engaged with sensitive research should have a higher degree of accountability, but undergrads should be permitted to engage freely with the marketplace of ideas to understand the advantages and disadvantages of different positions, cooperation across ideologies, and how to effectively combat harmful ideas without resorting to violence.
  - quantummagic 1y ago
    Foreign "spies" and agents can identify as undergrads just easily as people in more sensitive areas. Not everyone who calls themselves a student is pure of heart and there just for the pursuit of knowledge and personal development.
    - stego-tech 1y ago
      I refuse to engage in surveillance just to satisfy a hypothetical bad actor when it comes to freedom of speech, and I will not abdicate that position. Take your neo-McCarthyism to someone less firm in their support of free speech as to believe hypothetical spies warrant constant surveillance of innocents.
      - quantummagic 1y ago
        Very naive. You're putting a gaping hole in your countries defenses. There's nothing wrong with foreign visitors being subject to extra security; to ensure that they are operating within acceptable bounds, and if not, having their visitor status revoked.
BeetleB 1y ago
> On the subject of surveilling foreign students without warrants and demanding schools hand over data when asked, fuck off. While I agree with your sentiment, keep in mind that every university (public or private) in the US needs the government's approval to allow foreign students to study on their campus. If you set up a new college, there's a whole process you need to do to get that status, and to maintain it. As an example, pre-9/11, universities were lax with students who were out of status (including Elon Musk). After 9/11, the government gave them a clear message: If they don't report it, or continue to give them documents of legality when they were clearly out of status, the government would revoke the university's ability to have international students study there. To a large extent, they do get to dictate rules for foreign students. How much of that has been tested in courts - I don't know. Freedom of speech is a tricky topic.

maxerickson 1y ago

The student paying expensive foreign tuition may increase resources rather than displacing anyone.

Hizonner 1y ago
Foreign students are in fact a major "profit center" for a lot of universities, and do in fact subsidize domestic students.
- stego-tech 1y ago
  I will concede that I hear and see that narrative a lot, but short of compelling universities to disclose how that higher tuition is actually spent on subsidies for domestic students (what kinds of subsidies? How many benefitted? From what backgrounds? To what extent? Etc), I’m still hugely suspect on it.
  - Hizonner 1y ago
    > what kinds of subsidies Resident tuition at state schools is below their average per-student expenditures. That's a subsidy from which they all benefit. It's enabled, in part, by the fact that foreign student tuition is above the schools' average per-student expenditures.
  - ModernMech 1y ago
    As someone who is familiar with the budget for a large university, I'll tell you that yes, it is true that these foreign monies help keep tuition low for domestic students. It's not through any subsidies or formal program of any kind, just the fact that if that cashflow didn't exist we would have to raise our tuition prices to keep delivering the same level of service. I'll give you an example. I teach at a not well known school but it's got a nice enough reputation for undergrads. Our MS program is nothing to speak of though. Our MS class consists almost entirely of foreign students from Asia who pay full tuition just so they can get a stepping stone into America. They come to America, study at our program, then go to work in big tech firms around the country with a degree from a US university, which opens doors for them. For the university's part, that full tuition money is where any "profit" could possibly come from if the university were a business -- every other functional aspect we have from UG education to PhD education to research is break-even or operating at a loss. But because foreign students are so eager to come to America that they are willing to pay full tuition, the MS program actually makes money. And because the University is nonprofit, we use that money to keep costs lower and to fill in budget gaps in other areas. The upshot is if all that money dries up, because the US is no longer a desirable place for foreign students to want to live and learn and work, then that means the budget gaps will have to be filled in by raising tuition on... you guessed it: domestic students. So I don't know whether you believe any of that or not, but that's how it works at least in one instance.
    - JeksonFerguson 1y ago
      [dead]
    - stego-tech 1y ago
      I genuinely appreciate the shared perspective and information! This is, admittedly, an area I lack concrete data in because it’s not required to be public in many cases, and I have no way to effectively judge the accuracy or transparency of the data that is; your sharing helps fill in gaps, which I’m appreciative of. Alright then, let’s assume I am woefully mistaken in my understanding of how international student tuition affects domestic student tuition. There’s still the reality of college tuition grossly outstripping inflation and COLA, even accounting for the prior government subsidies on tuition older generations enjoyed. Yet despite the cost of tuition skyrocketing, the return on investment continues to dwindle - namely that credentials alone no longer guarantee even a middle class existence, nevermind a potential ticket into the upper classes. In that context, why does tuition remain so high, and how would you recommend we address the issues of tuition cost relative to ROI? Should we raise admission standards to deter enrollment and divert students to tradework? Should we eliminate credentials from non-specialized roles, thereby further depressing the ROI and thus future enrollment? Or is the answer just baking-in a college education into primary schooling, and making a Bachelor’s gratis via government subsidy at state/public schools? Genuinely curious where you’d recommend I focus my efforts or learning on, because you have a better grasp on this than I do.

quantummagic 1y ago

> Students - domestic or international - deserve a campus where they can explore new ideas without fear of reprisal at home or abroad. That's a bit naive in today's world. Not every person who identifies as a student is there with the best of intentions, or without ulterior motives, some even being directed by foreign governments. To make them off limits from scrutiny, is to leave your door wide open, and susceptible to abuse and manipulation by enemies.

stego-tech 1y ago
I’m talking undergrad campuses, not research departments (which is often where this critique is lobbed towards). Obviously students engaged with sensitive research should have a higher degree of accountability, but undergrads should be permitted to engage freely with the marketplace of ideas to understand the advantages and disadvantages of different positions, cooperation across ideologies, and how to effectively combat harmful ideas without resorting to violence.
- quantummagic 1y ago
  Foreign "spies" and agents can identify as undergrads just easily as people in more sensitive areas. Not everyone who calls themselves a student is pure of heart and there just for the pursuit of knowledge and personal development.
  - stego-tech 1y ago
    I refuse to engage in surveillance just to satisfy a hypothetical bad actor when it comes to freedom of speech, and I will not abdicate that position. Take your neo-McCarthyism to someone less firm in their support of free speech as to believe hypothetical spies warrant constant surveillance of innocents.
    - quantummagic 1y ago
      Very naive. You're putting a gaping hole in your countries defenses. There's nothing wrong with foreign visitors being subject to extra security; to ensure that they are operating within acceptable bounds, and if not, having their visitor status revoked.

BeetleB 1y ago

> On the subject of surveilling foreign students without warrants and demanding schools hand over data when asked, fuck off. While I agree with your sentiment, keep in mind that every university (public or private) in the US needs the government's approval to allow foreign students to study on their campus. If you set up a new college, there's a whole process you need to do to get that status, and to maintain it. As an example, pre-9/11, universities were lax with students who were out of status (including Elon Musk). After 9/11, the government gave them a clear message: If they don't report it, or continue to give them documents of legality when they were clearly out of status, the government would revoke the university's ability to have international students study there. To a large extent, they do get to dictate rules for foreign students. How much of that has been tested in courts - I don't know. Freedom of speech is a tricky topic.