6 ms·

Autism should not be seen as single condition with one cause, say scientists

137 points by 01-_- 1y ago

bhaak 1y ago
Oh, a scientist. What do they know? I thought we don’t listen to these people anymore. In what reality would we be living if we listened to knowledgeable people?
- Der_Einzige 1y ago
  Technocracies have a pretty bad record unironically. Places which let lawyers run society do better than places which let engineers run it. Edit, since I can't make a post right now since HN thinks I've posted too much, here's some examples of technoracies: "The former government of the Soviet Union has been referred to as a technocracy.[20] Soviet leaders like Leonid Brezhnev often had a technical background. In 1986, 89% of Politburo members were engineers.[20] " "Many previous leaders of the Chinese Communist Party had backgrounds in engineering and practical sciences. According to surveys of municipal governments of cities with a population of 1 million or more in China, it has been found that over 80% of government personnel had a technical education" "Since the 1990s, Italy has had several such governments (in Italian, governo tecnico) in times of economic or political crisis,[27][28] including the formation in which economist Mario Monti presided over a cabinet of unelected professionals." "The term 'technocratic' has been applied to governments where a cabinet of elected professional politicians is led by an unelected prime minister, such as in the cases of the 2011-2012 Greek government led by economist Lucas Papademos and the Czech Republic's 2009–2010 caretaker government presided over by the state's chief statistician, Jan Fischer.[3][31] In December 2013, in the framework of the national dialogue facilitated by the Tunisian National Dialogue Quartet, political parties in Tunisia agreed to install a technocratic government led by Mehdi Jomaa." "The Syrian Salvation Government, the predecessor to the Syrian transitional government,[33] was characterized by observers as an authoritarian technocracy" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy
  - justinrubek 1y ago
    Can you provide examples of such a place? From my perspective, I find it difficult to believe that this has ever been attempted at a scale that is sufficient to come to that conclusion. I'd love to hear otherwise.
    - jajuuka 1y ago
      I feel like they are coming with the same energy as "socialism never works and always fails....because we make it fail."
    - 9rx 1y ago
      A "true" technocracy has never been, but China has exhibited the only "almost" example during the late 20th century. That was the period when they transformed from a sustenance-farming backwater to a powerhouse on the world stage. Of course, it is always easy for a backwater to play catchup after someone else has already figured out how to advance. It is difficult to attribute that success to technocracy, and it is likely that any system could have allowed the same forward momentum, but the correlated track record is quite good regardless. The USA flirted with the idea of technocracy around the time of the Great Depression. That is, perhaps, where the "bad record" idea has come from, but that's a pretty big leap.
  - breppp 1y ago
    In my experience organizations ruled by lawyers are ruled by inertia. You can delegate any question to a lawyer who will advise you to not do anything
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      If they’re being delegated decision making they are, by definition, not running things.
      - breppp 1y ago
        As in, "running things" by being the last decider, the class with the most power in the system, etc Just as the king of england is the head of state yet not the source of power
- kristianp 1y ago
  Lol, we have to live in this reality for at least another 3 years.
noelwelsh 1y ago
This tracks my experience. People in my family probably have PDA autism (https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/topics/behaviour/demand-avoidance https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/topics/behavio...) and it bears very little resemblance to what I know of the "standard" experience of autism.
- dayvid 1y ago
  I mean a lot of people Autistic and non-autistic exhibit that behavior. There should be some genetic or biological component to autism, otherwise we're just labelling boutique awkward behavior as Autism
  - noelwelsh 1y ago
    Agreed. I believe both autism and ADHD are labelled as syndromes, which is basically a circle drawn around a collection of symptoms, as the biological basis is not currently known. This research could be a step towards changing it.
    - hobs 1y ago
      A biological basis for autism is starting to be understood, which can be extremely summarized as neuron pruning dysfunction/regulation issues. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9671112/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9671112/
- nonethewiser 1y ago
  I've heard the same thing for women although Im not sure I've had any experience with it first hand. Which seems kinda strange. If we dont know the cause and the symptoms are entirely different then what makes it the same thing?
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
oortoo 1y ago
[flagged]
- mc32 1y ago
  Unless we find Utopia some day, the economic system does not matter. People will have to work whether they be nomads, fishermen or fisherwomen, live in Neoliberal economies, live in Socialist economies, Communist economies or a loaner in the jungle. People have to produce: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" as they say. It's expected people who have the ability to produce to produce. It's not Wall-E land where you get plugged in and can veg out to your heart's content. We have the same phenomenon in the non-political animal kingdom. You hold your weight or you're out. We have little more ruth as a species... but not that much more because it's hard to afford more --you see even if we evenly spread the wealth from billionaires evenly, it would not amount to much for each individual -just over a thousand dollars per person and it would be a one-time thing.
- cogman10 1y ago
  > Autism is not Mendelian. There is no autism gene. Autism is heritable which suggests there are autism genes involved. [1] It's not a 100% thing, which could point to things other than genetics causing autism. It is, however, very strongly correlated to your parents. [1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5818813/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5818813/
  - oortoo 1y ago
    I agree. Of course genes are involved... but that doesn't make it Mendelian. Autism would be caused by a combination of genetic and environmental factors. The fact exists that there is no singular autism gene. And there could never be a genetic test for autism. It could predict the likelihood, but it wouldn't be pass/fail. Because there are many autism-related genes but no single gene trigger like a light switch. And you could still have all of those genes turned on and not have autism due to environmental factors.
zmgsabst 1y ago
I wouldn’t even be surprised to find that it’s a matrix: multiple causes correlate with multiple (but not necessarily all) expressions. Like myocarditis or auto immune diseases.
- nonethewiser 1y ago
  Seems almost inevitable. The definition is so messy. And even things that seem clearly NOT autism still seem closely related. Such as ADHD.
dsr_ 1y ago
Did anyone, including the people proclaiming it, believe that "Tylenol causes autism"?
- kstenerud 1y ago
  They likely do. Belief is one of the methods by which we demonstrate loyalty - and to the person affected, it's indistinguishable from any other belief.
- droptablemain 1y ago
  No one proclaimed that. They announced that Tylenol could be linked to neurological development issues, including autism.
  - altcognito 1y ago
    Why would they do that? Why would they suggest that maybe these two things are related? Why didn't they say it earlier? Didn't they say they were going to release the cause of autism earlier?
  - estearum 1y ago
    "Don't take Tylenol, don't take it. If you just can't… I mean, it's just fight like hell not to take it. There may be a point where you have to and that you have to work out with yourself. So don't take Tylenol." That's what they said, which is fucking stupid. The existing guidance is to discuss use with your doctor and to take the minimum necessary. It is not "fight like hell", ostensibly through fever and significant pain, to avoid it. There is no good evidence to substantiate this belief, and if there were, then it'd be part of the guidance and we wouldn't need somebody who learned acetaminophen == Tylenol at 79 years old saying things like "Don't take Tylenol" on national TV.
    - nonethewiser 1y ago
      That is what Trump said about the FDA decision to update labels. I agree it was stupid and misleading. The actual action taken was as the original commenter said. The FDA decisions to update labels said: >The U.S. Food and Drug Administration today initiated the process for a label change for acetaminophen (Tylenol and similar products) to reflect evidence suggesting that the use of acetaminophen by pregnant women may be associated with an increased risk of neurological conditions such as autism and ADHD in children. The agency also issued a related letter alerting physicians nationwide. https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-responds-evidence-possible-association-between-autism-and-acetaminophen-use-during-pregnancy https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-resp...
cogman10 1y ago
> It is time to realise that ‘autism’ has become a ragbag of different conditions. Look, I get it and somewhat agree. However, the reason for the diagnosis (and any diagnosis) is treatment. Maybe there are two different conditions that require speech, occupational, and behavior therapy to different degrees, however, in terms of convincing insurance companies in the US to cover those having a single diagnosis makes everything easier. It's not as if a separate diagnosis would change how a speech therapist interacts with a child. I applaud efforts to figure out what is going on and to categorize. But I also think that practically the ragbag diagnosis makes treatment a lot easier to access for patients.
- dustbunny 1y ago
  This reminds me of the "America is run by Lawyers, China is run by engineers quote" We can't let Lawyering/word smithing/insurance manipulation restrain our access to the truth.
- ender341341 1y ago
  > It's not as if a separate diagnosis would change how a speech therapist interacts with a child. This is the really big part that a lot of people seem to miss when complaining about the changes in DSMV. Previously there were dozens of conditions that had nearly the exact same symptoms and super similar treatments that may work. The change basically said, for these given symptoms here's a bunch of treatments that may work. I've known a few people that were diagnosed as something that would now be under autism, but because they had that diagnosis that didn't happen to include some of the treatments that actually ended up working for them they ended up not finding them until they happened to get a doctor that said "you know these diagnoses are really close, lets try this instead". From talking with doctors I don't think I've heard anyone disagree that autism is almost assuredly a cover term for many different things similar to cancer not being a singular disease. The difference right now is that we don't have any concrete test to differentiate between any of the autisms yet, just various sets of treatments that work to varying degrees for different people.
- BergAndCo 1y ago
  They figured out that autism is actually four completely distinct disease clusters with four completely different symptomologies, with some overlap of symptoms in the middle. One of the disease clusters correlates with Fragile X retardation. The idea that we clump together an actual genetic condition that causes retardation with 3 other disorders is ludicrous. Therapists need to understand that many disorders can produce "autism-like" downstream effects, just like many things could cause anxiety or depression. Not understanding the disorders doesn't "help patients". https://www.princeton.edu/news/2025/07/09/major-autism-study-uncovers-biologically-distinct-subtypes-paving-way-precision https://www.princeton.edu/news/2025/07/09/major-autism-study...
cstejerean 1y ago
Well of course, we basically expanded the ASD definition to cover a wide range in order to ensure that everyone gets access to support if needed, but in the process turned "autism" into a grab bag of different conditions which makes discussions about it difficult because everyone is talking about something else.
- morkalork 1y ago
  It's kinda like mental health issues go through their own hype-cycles. Autism now is where ADHD was in the late 90s / early 2000s. I say this as someone who went through the Ritalin treatment a long time ago, but that was after my parents were at their wits end tried drugging me with gravol. If that were today, it'd probably be some neurospicy autism diagnosis and treatment.
in_cahoots 1y ago
The overloading of the term autism has had a real damaging effect on some people. My cousin is profoundly autistic: he's nonverbal, and will never live independently. In the 90s most autism research was focused on helping people like him. He was involved in some pioneering studies at John's Hopkins University. Today most of the money and advocacy is for high-performing or moderately-performing people with autism. Not just in relative terms, the amount of funding for people like my cousin has gone down. It makes sense; they are the larger group by volume and are able to advocate better than people like my cousin. I wish it weren't a zero-sum game, and we recognized that autism is just a word for a broad series of conditions. It would be like if we called everyone with poor eyesight 'blind': yes, your vision is impaired. But the solutions you need are very different than the solutions Stevie Wonder needs. See also: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/10/01/health/autism-spectrum-neurodiversity-kennedy.html https://www.nytimes.com/2025/10/01/health/autism-spectrum-ne...
- MangoToupe 1y ago
  > Today most of the money and advocacy is for high-performing or moderately-performing people with autism. Is this true? I think it's important to distinguish between social media (and other sorts of) discourse and where money is actually flowing.
  - cogman10 1y ago
    Not really. The main difference is that we don't immediately institutionalize kids with severe autism, which does save a lot of money. For my kid with severe autism, about the only real impact of more people getting therapy is that sometimes it's harder to get an appointment (triage is more first come first serve and less needs based). Realistically, that simply translates into a month to a half year waiting for an opening.
  - in_cahoots 1y ago
    Social media is not disconnected from society as a whole. Influencers are called that because they have actual influence. You only need to look at and truly understand the MAHA movement to know this. It's not a movement by RFK; it's a movement of people (often moms) who are dissatisfied with their current situation and trying to do something to change it. They may be flat out wrong, but they have influence nonetheless. Did the diagnostic criteria in DSM 5 change as a result of social media, was it the other way around, or was it hidden variables affecting both? Regardless, the money and attention tend to follow what the common people are saying. See: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
armchairhacker 1y ago
Yeah, "thinks or reacts to things differently than most people" is way too broad. It also shouldn't be a binary classifier. Some people are definitely "autistic", and some are definitely not, but many of the personality traits that define autism are continuous: e.g. some people are barely distracted by loud noises (normal), others are distracted by loud but not quiet noises (normal), others are distracted by specific quiet noises like chewing (autism?), others are very distracted by any noise even with noise-cancelling headphones (autism?). I think people should just say "I have sensory issues" (or clarify "noise really distracts me"), "I'm bad at reading emotions", "my mood is really affected by others". And accommodations maybe do need to be binary (or graded), but should ideally be informal, and definitely be for specific traits instead of "autism": e.g. don't give someone who thinks methodically but isn't bothered by loud environments their own room (unless you give everyone that), but don't assign them vague tasks or they'll perform poorly.
- willsmith72 1y ago
  What you're describing is the whole reason it's called autism *spectrum* disorder
  - armchairhacker 1y ago
    True, but it's still very vague. "I'm autistic" could mean "I'm non-verbal and can't function without constant care", "I'm very good at hacking, but need help with basic things", "I can function independently, but tend to over-think and over-explain and can't read people's emotions", "I can read people's emotions but am overwhelmed by them, I'm also unusually soothed by ASMR", "I'm unusually irritated by ASMR"...and there's no boundary that separates "real" autism from almost normal with certain traits slightly elevated.
- sctb 1y ago
  You're right that sensory issues make up a small (optional) part of the diagnostic criteria for ASD under the DSM-5. And I agree that "autism" in popular discourse seems to be very flexible and inclusive, but the medical diagnostic criteria are much more specific. When someone does meet these criteria, there's something going on that isn't just a collection of unrelated peculiarities. This seems to be supported by the very high heritability of diagnosed ASD. I would agree with you that there are issues caused by the wide range of presentations. It seems as though there's a tension between differentiation and unification at the various levels of scientific research, social understanding, social accommodation, etc. I expect things will get teased out over time. DSM summary: https://www.cdc.gov/autism/hcp/diagnosis/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/autism/hcp/diagnosis/index.html DSM and ICD summary: https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/topics/diagnosis/assessment-and-diagnosis/criteria-and-tools-used-in-an-autism-assessment https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/topics/diagnos... ICD-11 direct: https://icd.who.int/browse/2024-01/mms/en#437815624 https://icd.who.int/browse/2024-01/mms/en#437815624
hirvi74 1y ago
My views may not carry much influence, but I’ve argued this point for years—and not only about ADHD, but about many psychiatric conditions, including Autism. For what it is worth, I have ADHD -- 'cousin' disorder to Autism. Like Autism, ADHD has an array of presentations. I hold the belief that diagnostic labels are simply abstractions for grouping clusters of vague and often arbitrary symptoms. In that sense, many labels are tautological. For example, ADHD/Autism is defined by a set of behaviors, yet people are said to have ADHD/Autism because they exhibit that exact same set of behaviors. From my perspective, conditions like ADHD and Autism are unusual conditions in terms of their pathology. I suspect some autistic people might agree when I say this: ADHD (and certain forms of Autism) seem to be treated less for the benefit of the individual and more for the benefit of those around them. Compare this to depression -- a condition where the primary suffering is internal -- experienced by the person themselves. With ADHD and Autism, the person is not necessarily suffering directly, but their behaviors often cause difficulty for others, and in turn those others impose suffering on the individual. Treatment, then, improves behavior (somewhat), which first benefits those around the person, and only indirectly improves the individual's own quality of life. I may be struggling to articulate it perfectly, but I can’t shake the sense that there’s something unsettling about the pathology of these conditions. It has become almost imperative that I take amphetamines every single day. A practice that is far from pleasant, to say the least. Technically, no one forces me to medicate myself, yet the pressures of society make it feel obligatory. I alter myself not primarily for my own sake, but because society has deemed my natural state defective, disruptive, or unworthy. Treatment to me seems less about addressing my own suffering and more about making me tolerable to others.
- greygoo222 1y ago
  Treated for others' benefit? Your opinion has to be in the extreme minority here, at least for ADHD. ADHD is hell. Can't sleep and eat properly, can't focus on your work and hobbies, can't maintain your relationships, constantly losing shit... everyone I know is incredibly grateful to be on medication.
  - hirvi74 1y ago
    > ADHD is Hell I am well aware. > Can't sleep and eat properly Would be less of a problem if I was not forced to conform to society's expectations. I also have been diagnosed with Delayed Sleep-Phase Disorder, so I am also well aware. Also what are two of the most common side-effects of stimulants? Sleep disturbances and reduced appetite. Also, what type of eating issues are directly due to ADHD and not a comorbid disorder? I skip meals a lot due to laziness, but I wouldn't say it causes any dysfunction in my life. > can't focus on your work Who is more negatively affected by this behavior: your employer or you? > and hobbies So what if I struggle to commit to one hobby or finish a hobby? I do my hobbies for my enjoyment, not some ulterior motive. I do not think there is anything pathological about being a jack-of-all trades type or not committing to some hobby. > can't maintain your relationships Which I believe is direct evidence of how our symptoms affect others and not inherently oneself. > everyone I know is incredibly grateful to be on medication I remember feeling the same way once. I have been taking medication for over a decade now. Grateful is not the word I would personally use. I would say that I made a deal with the Devil just to feel some sense of respite.
cshores 1y ago
Nobody is saying that it is caused by one thing, only that one of the causes are directly attributed by acetaminophen. This is coming from studies by Johns Hopkins University, Harvard University, and Mount Sinai to name a few.
- fugalfervor 1y ago
  A correlation has been established. No causation has been established. You are mistaken.
nonethewiser 1y ago
Is there anything we can infer about the nature of Autism Spectrum Disorder from the fact that it's a spectrum, as opposed to some binary thing? If ASD is comprised of a variety of qualities that may not all be expressed at once, and they are expressed in varying degrees, what does that mean? For example, it seems unlikely its just the existence of single gene that determines if you have it or not. Or maybe its cause is continuous as well. More microplastics more autism (massively simplifying here, but just illustrating). I dont really know... seems like maybe there are more interesting instincts people might have here. The fact that it's kind of an amorphous mess seems to suggest something about the nature of the thing we are talking about here.
mrguyorama 1y ago
"Autism spectrum disorder", by virtue of being a "disorder" ISN'T a single condition with one cause. That's what disorder means Every single medical professional is aware of that. None of the neurodivergent conditions have a single "cause" yet. None of them are "diseases" yet because we don't know what causes them. Yes, lots of people have small amounts of the "symptoms" that get labeled as a condition. That is not meaningful. Everyone gets diarrhea sometimes. But if you get diarrhea regularly, or really bad diarrhea, or diarrhea that includes severe pain, then it might be IBD. IBD doesn't have one cause. It's very unlikely that it's even a single problem. If you eat too much greasy food and have bad shits, you do not have IBD even though you have that "symptom". If you claim to have IBD, you are just wrong. Yes, some people on tiktok who think they have ADHD or Autism are just wrong. If Americans could afford to go to the doctor for non-life threatening problems, they could get a psychologist to tell them that. Americans self diagnose because they can't go to the doctor. This is all true of "Cancer" as well, but there isn't a giant PR campaign to convince Americans that we are diagnosing too many people as having cancer. Nobody gives a shit that both they guy who dies in a month from metastasizing brain tumors and the guy who had to remove a benign skin mole both had "Cancer". Every kind of cancer has a name, but people will still say "I have Cancer" just fine. It's only with Autism and ADHD that people insist we have somehow done something wrong by using the exact same language structures as other medical problems. Meanwhile, with attacks against Social Security, this admin who claims to care so much about helping Autistic people is ensuring that people who cannot function in society will die miserably and uncared for. Maybe Tylenol while pregnant is a risk factor for people who are already genetically predisposed to it or something. The data sucks so far, but maybe further study will show something. My sister worked on a study in the 2000s that was looking at this, as well as looking at getting the flu while pregnant. Nothing came of it.
spwa4 1y ago
Except autism, or as it was called then "autistic psychopathy" is anything but a condition or discovery https://archive.ph/nOH4z https://archive.ph/nOH4z (note: it's a nature.com link) https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43820794 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43820794 Autism is exactly one thing, according to its discoverer, Hans Asperger: a diagnosis to remove the mentally undesirable from society to safeguard the genetic purity of the noble aryan race (translated from the paper by Hans Asperger) Note: by removing he meant killing anyone with the "diagnosis", child or adult. Hans Asperger signed the orders to kill at least 5 children, probably many more. In other words: the "discovery of autism" was nothing other than an excuse to massacre children deemed to be a burden on families for whatever reason. If you were diagnosed with autism and weren't hyperintelligent, you were sent away to be killed. It was the absolute opposite of neurodiversity, of tolerance, of neurodivergent people and it was never meant as a real diagnosis of a real condition. It was an excuse for murder. Of course, psychology sees no problem with this little part of history and still revere Hans Asperger as a hero, as opposed to someone who should have been hanged at Nuremberg along with his colleagues. Psychology has a history of doing this. If you check what happened to Freud's patients, especially the women, you'll see that he was a seriously disturbed person as well. He made (in today's dollars) billions testifying in court that women who accused rich Austrians, often their own family, of rape they wanted to be raped and should be locked up for this deviant behavior ("not" to protect and satisfy the desire for revenge in their rapists). Oh and in a few cases, that male victims of murder by their own family were guilty of their own murder.
Babkock 1y ago
Posting this on Hacker News is like contacting a bunch of marine biologists to tell them "water = wet"

137 points by 01-_- 1y ago

Oh, a scientist. What do they know? I thought we don’t listen to these people anymore. In what reality would we be living if we listened to knowledgeable people?

Der_Einzige 1y ago
Technocracies have a pretty bad record unironically. Places which let lawyers run society do better than places which let engineers run it. Edit, since I can't make a post right now since HN thinks I've posted too much, here's some examples of technoracies: "The former government of the Soviet Union has been referred to as a technocracy.[20] Soviet leaders like Leonid Brezhnev often had a technical background. In 1986, 89% of Politburo members were engineers.[20] " "Many previous leaders of the Chinese Communist Party had backgrounds in engineering and practical sciences. According to surveys of municipal governments of cities with a population of 1 million or more in China, it has been found that over 80% of government personnel had a technical education" "Since the 1990s, Italy has had several such governments (in Italian, governo tecnico) in times of economic or political crisis,[27][28] including the formation in which economist Mario Monti presided over a cabinet of unelected professionals." "The term 'technocratic' has been applied to governments where a cabinet of elected professional politicians is led by an unelected prime minister, such as in the cases of the 2011-2012 Greek government led by economist Lucas Papademos and the Czech Republic's 2009–2010 caretaker government presided over by the state's chief statistician, Jan Fischer.[3][31] In December 2013, in the framework of the national dialogue facilitated by the Tunisian National Dialogue Quartet, political parties in Tunisia agreed to install a technocratic government led by Mehdi Jomaa." "The Syrian Salvation Government, the predecessor to the Syrian transitional government,[33] was characterized by observers as an authoritarian technocracy" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy
- justinrubek 1y ago
  Can you provide examples of such a place? From my perspective, I find it difficult to believe that this has ever been attempted at a scale that is sufficient to come to that conclusion. I'd love to hear otherwise.
  - jajuuka 1y ago
    I feel like they are coming with the same energy as "socialism never works and always fails....because we make it fail."
  - 9rx 1y ago
    A "true" technocracy has never been, but China has exhibited the only "almost" example during the late 20th century. That was the period when they transformed from a sustenance-farming backwater to a powerhouse on the world stage. Of course, it is always easy for a backwater to play catchup after someone else has already figured out how to advance. It is difficult to attribute that success to technocracy, and it is likely that any system could have allowed the same forward momentum, but the correlated track record is quite good regardless. The USA flirted with the idea of technocracy around the time of the Great Depression. That is, perhaps, where the "bad record" idea has come from, but that's a pretty big leap.
- breppp 1y ago
  In my experience organizations ruled by lawyers are ruled by inertia. You can delegate any question to a lawyer who will advise you to not do anything
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    If they’re being delegated decision making they are, by definition, not running things.
    - breppp 1y ago
      As in, "running things" by being the last decider, the class with the most power in the system, etc Just as the king of england is the head of state yet not the source of power
kristianp 1y ago
Lol, we have to live in this reality for at least another 3 years.

noelwelsh 1y ago

This tracks my experience. People in my family probably have PDA autism (https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/topics/behaviour/demand-avoidance https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/topics/behavio...) and it bears very little resemblance to what I know of the "standard" experience of autism.

dayvid 1y ago
I mean a lot of people Autistic and non-autistic exhibit that behavior. There should be some genetic or biological component to autism, otherwise we're just labelling boutique awkward behavior as Autism
- noelwelsh 1y ago
  Agreed. I believe both autism and ADHD are labelled as syndromes, which is basically a circle drawn around a collection of symptoms, as the biological basis is not currently known. This research could be a step towards changing it.
  - hobs 1y ago
    A biological basis for autism is starting to be understood, which can be extremely summarized as neuron pruning dysfunction/regulation issues. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9671112/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9671112/
nonethewiser 1y ago
I've heard the same thing for women although Im not sure I've had any experience with it first hand. Which seems kinda strange. If we dont know the cause and the symptoms are entirely different then what makes it the same thing?

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

oortoo 1y ago

[flagged]

mc32 1y ago
Unless we find Utopia some day, the economic system does not matter. People will have to work whether they be nomads, fishermen or fisherwomen, live in Neoliberal economies, live in Socialist economies, Communist economies or a loaner in the jungle. People have to produce: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" as they say. It's expected people who have the ability to produce to produce. It's not Wall-E land where you get plugged in and can veg out to your heart's content. We have the same phenomenon in the non-political animal kingdom. You hold your weight or you're out. We have little more ruth as a species... but not that much more because it's hard to afford more --you see even if we evenly spread the wealth from billionaires evenly, it would not amount to much for each individual -just over a thousand dollars per person and it would be a one-time thing.
cogman10 1y ago
> Autism is not Mendelian. There is no autism gene. Autism is heritable which suggests there are autism genes involved. [1] It's not a 100% thing, which could point to things other than genetics causing autism. It is, however, very strongly correlated to your parents. [1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5818813/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5818813/
- oortoo 1y ago
  I agree. Of course genes are involved... but that doesn't make it Mendelian. Autism would be caused by a combination of genetic and environmental factors. The fact exists that there is no singular autism gene. And there could never be a genetic test for autism. It could predict the likelihood, but it wouldn't be pass/fail. Because there are many autism-related genes but no single gene trigger like a light switch. And you could still have all of those genes turned on and not have autism due to environmental factors.

zmgsabst 1y ago

I wouldn’t even be surprised to find that it’s a matrix: multiple causes correlate with multiple (but not necessarily all) expressions. Like myocarditis or auto immune diseases.

nonethewiser 1y ago
Seems almost inevitable. The definition is so messy. And even things that seem clearly NOT autism still seem closely related. Such as ADHD.

dsr_ 1y ago

Did anyone, including the people proclaiming it, believe that "Tylenol causes autism"?

kstenerud 1y ago
They likely do. Belief is one of the methods by which we demonstrate loyalty - and to the person affected, it's indistinguishable from any other belief.
droptablemain 1y ago
No one proclaimed that. They announced that Tylenol could be linked to neurological development issues, including autism.
- altcognito 1y ago
  Why would they do that? Why would they suggest that maybe these two things are related? Why didn't they say it earlier? Didn't they say they were going to release the cause of autism earlier?
- estearum 1y ago
  "Don't take Tylenol, don't take it. If you just can't… I mean, it's just fight like hell not to take it. There may be a point where you have to and that you have to work out with yourself. So don't take Tylenol." That's what they said, which is fucking stupid. The existing guidance is to discuss use with your doctor and to take the minimum necessary. It is not "fight like hell", ostensibly through fever and significant pain, to avoid it. There is no good evidence to substantiate this belief, and if there were, then it'd be part of the guidance and we wouldn't need somebody who learned acetaminophen == Tylenol at 79 years old saying things like "Don't take Tylenol" on national TV.
  - nonethewiser 1y ago
    That is what Trump said about the FDA decision to update labels. I agree it was stupid and misleading. The actual action taken was as the original commenter said. The FDA decisions to update labels said: >The U.S. Food and Drug Administration today initiated the process for a label change for acetaminophen (Tylenol and similar products) to reflect evidence suggesting that the use of acetaminophen by pregnant women may be associated with an increased risk of neurological conditions such as autism and ADHD in children. The agency also issued a related letter alerting physicians nationwide. https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-responds-evidence-possible-association-between-autism-and-acetaminophen-use-during-pregnancy https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-resp...

cogman10 1y ago

> It is time to realise that ‘autism’ has become a ragbag of different conditions. Look, I get it and somewhat agree. However, the reason for the diagnosis (and any diagnosis) is treatment. Maybe there are two different conditions that require speech, occupational, and behavior therapy to different degrees, however, in terms of convincing insurance companies in the US to cover those having a single diagnosis makes everything easier. It's not as if a separate diagnosis would change how a speech therapist interacts with a child. I applaud efforts to figure out what is going on and to categorize. But I also think that practically the ragbag diagnosis makes treatment a lot easier to access for patients.

dustbunny 1y ago
This reminds me of the "America is run by Lawyers, China is run by engineers quote" We can't let Lawyering/word smithing/insurance manipulation restrain our access to the truth.
ender341341 1y ago
> It's not as if a separate diagnosis would change how a speech therapist interacts with a child. This is the really big part that a lot of people seem to miss when complaining about the changes in DSMV. Previously there were dozens of conditions that had nearly the exact same symptoms and super similar treatments that may work. The change basically said, for these given symptoms here's a bunch of treatments that may work. I've known a few people that were diagnosed as something that would now be under autism, but because they had that diagnosis that didn't happen to include some of the treatments that actually ended up working for them they ended up not finding them until they happened to get a doctor that said "you know these diagnoses are really close, lets try this instead". From talking with doctors I don't think I've heard anyone disagree that autism is almost assuredly a cover term for many different things similar to cancer not being a singular disease. The difference right now is that we don't have any concrete test to differentiate between any of the autisms yet, just various sets of treatments that work to varying degrees for different people.
BergAndCo 1y ago
They figured out that autism is actually four completely distinct disease clusters with four completely different symptomologies, with some overlap of symptoms in the middle. One of the disease clusters correlates with Fragile X retardation. The idea that we clump together an actual genetic condition that causes retardation with 3 other disorders is ludicrous. Therapists need to understand that many disorders can produce "autism-like" downstream effects, just like many things could cause anxiety or depression. Not understanding the disorders doesn't "help patients". https://www.princeton.edu/news/2025/07/09/major-autism-study-uncovers-biologically-distinct-subtypes-paving-way-precision https://www.princeton.edu/news/2025/07/09/major-autism-study...

cstejerean 1y ago

Well of course, we basically expanded the ASD definition to cover a wide range in order to ensure that everyone gets access to support if needed, but in the process turned "autism" into a grab bag of different conditions which makes discussions about it difficult because everyone is talking about something else.

morkalork 1y ago
It's kinda like mental health issues go through their own hype-cycles. Autism now is where ADHD was in the late 90s / early 2000s. I say this as someone who went through the Ritalin treatment a long time ago, but that was after my parents were at their wits end tried drugging me with gravol. If that were today, it'd probably be some neurospicy autism diagnosis and treatment.

in_cahoots 1y ago

The overloading of the term autism has had a real damaging effect on some people. My cousin is profoundly autistic: he's nonverbal, and will never live independently. In the 90s most autism research was focused on helping people like him. He was involved in some pioneering studies at John's Hopkins University. Today most of the money and advocacy is for high-performing or moderately-performing people with autism. Not just in relative terms, the amount of funding for people like my cousin has gone down. It makes sense; they are the larger group by volume and are able to advocate better than people like my cousin. I wish it weren't a zero-sum game, and we recognized that autism is just a word for a broad series of conditions. It would be like if we called everyone with poor eyesight 'blind': yes, your vision is impaired. But the solutions you need are very different than the solutions Stevie Wonder needs. See also: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/10/01/health/autism-spectrum-neurodiversity-kennedy.html https://www.nytimes.com/2025/10/01/health/autism-spectrum-ne...

MangoToupe 1y ago
> Today most of the money and advocacy is for high-performing or moderately-performing people with autism. Is this true? I think it's important to distinguish between social media (and other sorts of) discourse and where money is actually flowing.
- cogman10 1y ago
  Not really. The main difference is that we don't immediately institutionalize kids with severe autism, which does save a lot of money. For my kid with severe autism, about the only real impact of more people getting therapy is that sometimes it's harder to get an appointment (triage is more first come first serve and less needs based). Realistically, that simply translates into a month to a half year waiting for an opening.
- in_cahoots 1y ago
  Social media is not disconnected from society as a whole. Influencers are called that because they have actual influence. You only need to look at and truly understand the MAHA movement to know this. It's not a movement by RFK; it's a movement of people (often moms) who are dissatisfied with their current situation and trying to do something to change it. They may be flat out wrong, but they have influence nonetheless. Did the diagnostic criteria in DSM 5 change as a result of social media, was it the other way around, or was it hidden variables affecting both? Regardless, the money and attention tend to follow what the common people are saying. See: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

armchairhacker 1y ago

Yeah, "thinks or reacts to things differently than most people" is way too broad. It also shouldn't be a binary classifier. Some people are definitely "autistic", and some are definitely not, but many of the personality traits that define autism are continuous: e.g. some people are barely distracted by loud noises (normal), others are distracted by loud but not quiet noises (normal), others are distracted by specific quiet noises like chewing (autism?), others are very distracted by any noise even with noise-cancelling headphones (autism?). I think people should just say "I have sensory issues" (or clarify "noise really distracts me"), "I'm bad at reading emotions", "my mood is really affected by others". And accommodations maybe do need to be binary (or graded), but should ideally be informal, and definitely be for specific traits instead of "autism": e.g. don't give someone who thinks methodically but isn't bothered by loud environments their own room (unless you give everyone that), but don't assign them vague tasks or they'll perform poorly.

willsmith72 1y ago
What you're describing is the whole reason it's called autism *spectrum* disorder
- armchairhacker 1y ago
  True, but it's still very vague. "I'm autistic" could mean "I'm non-verbal and can't function without constant care", "I'm very good at hacking, but need help with basic things", "I can function independently, but tend to over-think and over-explain and can't read people's emotions", "I can read people's emotions but am overwhelmed by them, I'm also unusually soothed by ASMR", "I'm unusually irritated by ASMR"...and there's no boundary that separates "real" autism from almost normal with certain traits slightly elevated.
sctb 1y ago
You're right that sensory issues make up a small (optional) part of the diagnostic criteria for ASD under the DSM-5. And I agree that "autism" in popular discourse seems to be very flexible and inclusive, but the medical diagnostic criteria are much more specific. When someone does meet these criteria, there's something going on that isn't just a collection of unrelated peculiarities. This seems to be supported by the very high heritability of diagnosed ASD. I would agree with you that there are issues caused by the wide range of presentations. It seems as though there's a tension between differentiation and unification at the various levels of scientific research, social understanding, social accommodation, etc. I expect things will get teased out over time. DSM summary: https://www.cdc.gov/autism/hcp/diagnosis/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/autism/hcp/diagnosis/index.html DSM and ICD summary: https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/topics/diagnosis/assessment-and-diagnosis/criteria-and-tools-used-in-an-autism-assessment https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/topics/diagnos... ICD-11 direct: https://icd.who.int/browse/2024-01/mms/en#437815624 https://icd.who.int/browse/2024-01/mms/en#437815624

hirvi74 1y ago

My views may not carry much influence, but I’ve argued this point for years—and not only about ADHD, but about many psychiatric conditions, including Autism. For what it is worth, I have ADHD -- 'cousin' disorder to Autism. Like Autism, ADHD has an array of presentations. I hold the belief that diagnostic labels are simply abstractions for grouping clusters of vague and often arbitrary symptoms. In that sense, many labels are tautological. For example, ADHD/Autism is defined by a set of behaviors, yet people are said to have ADHD/Autism because they exhibit that exact same set of behaviors. From my perspective, conditions like ADHD and Autism are unusual conditions in terms of their pathology. I suspect some autistic people might agree when I say this: ADHD (and certain forms of Autism) seem to be treated less for the benefit of the individual and more for the benefit of those around them. Compare this to depression -- a condition where the primary suffering is internal -- experienced by the person themselves. With ADHD and Autism, the person is not necessarily suffering directly, but their behaviors often cause difficulty for others, and in turn those others impose suffering on the individual. Treatment, then, improves behavior (somewhat), which first benefits those around the person, and only indirectly improves the individual's own quality of life. I may be struggling to articulate it perfectly, but I can’t shake the sense that there’s something unsettling about the pathology of these conditions. It has become almost imperative that I take amphetamines every single day. A practice that is far from pleasant, to say the least. Technically, no one forces me to medicate myself, yet the pressures of society make it feel obligatory. I alter myself not primarily for my own sake, but because society has deemed my natural state defective, disruptive, or unworthy. Treatment to me seems less about addressing my own suffering and more about making me tolerable to others.

greygoo222 1y ago
Treated for others' benefit? Your opinion has to be in the extreme minority here, at least for ADHD. ADHD is hell. Can't sleep and eat properly, can't focus on your work and hobbies, can't maintain your relationships, constantly losing shit... everyone I know is incredibly grateful to be on medication.
- hirvi74 1y ago
  > ADHD is Hell I am well aware. > Can't sleep and eat properly Would be less of a problem if I was not forced to conform to society's expectations. I also have been diagnosed with Delayed Sleep-Phase Disorder, so I am also well aware. Also what are two of the most common side-effects of stimulants? Sleep disturbances and reduced appetite. Also, what type of eating issues are directly due to ADHD and not a comorbid disorder? I skip meals a lot due to laziness, but I wouldn't say it causes any dysfunction in my life. > can't focus on your work Who is more negatively affected by this behavior: your employer or you? > and hobbies So what if I struggle to commit to one hobby or finish a hobby? I do my hobbies for my enjoyment, not some ulterior motive. I do not think there is anything pathological about being a jack-of-all trades type or not committing to some hobby. > can't maintain your relationships Which I believe is direct evidence of how our symptoms affect others and not inherently oneself. > everyone I know is incredibly grateful to be on medication I remember feeling the same way once. I have been taking medication for over a decade now. Grateful is not the word I would personally use. I would say that I made a deal with the Devil just to feel some sense of respite.

cshores 1y ago

Nobody is saying that it is caused by one thing, only that one of the causes are directly attributed by acetaminophen. This is coming from studies by Johns Hopkins University, Harvard University, and Mount Sinai to name a few.

fugalfervor 1y ago
A correlation has been established. No causation has been established. You are mistaken.

nonethewiser 1y ago

Is there anything we can infer about the nature of Autism Spectrum Disorder from the fact that it's a spectrum, as opposed to some binary thing? If ASD is comprised of a variety of qualities that may not all be expressed at once, and they are expressed in varying degrees, what does that mean? For example, it seems unlikely its just the existence of single gene that determines if you have it or not. Or maybe its cause is continuous as well. More microplastics more autism (massively simplifying here, but just illustrating). I dont really know... seems like maybe there are more interesting instincts people might have here. The fact that it's kind of an amorphous mess seems to suggest something about the nature of the thing we are talking about here.

mrguyorama 1y ago

"Autism spectrum disorder", by virtue of being a "disorder" ISN'T a single condition with one cause. That's what disorder means Every single medical professional is aware of that. None of the neurodivergent conditions have a single "cause" yet. None of them are "diseases" yet because we don't know what causes them. Yes, lots of people have small amounts of the "symptoms" that get labeled as a condition. That is not meaningful. Everyone gets diarrhea sometimes. But if you get diarrhea regularly, or really bad diarrhea, or diarrhea that includes severe pain, then it might be IBD. IBD doesn't have one cause. It's very unlikely that it's even a single problem. If you eat too much greasy food and have bad shits, you do not have IBD even though you have that "symptom". If you claim to have IBD, you are just wrong. Yes, some people on tiktok who think they have ADHD or Autism are just wrong. If Americans could afford to go to the doctor for non-life threatening problems, they could get a psychologist to tell them that. Americans self diagnose because they can't go to the doctor. This is all true of "Cancer" as well, but there isn't a giant PR campaign to convince Americans that we are diagnosing too many people as having cancer. Nobody gives a shit that both they guy who dies in a month from metastasizing brain tumors and the guy who had to remove a benign skin mole both had "Cancer". Every kind of cancer has a name, but people will still say "I have Cancer" just fine. It's only with Autism and ADHD that people insist we have somehow done something wrong by using the exact same language structures as other medical problems. Meanwhile, with attacks against Social Security, this admin who claims to care so much about helping Autistic people is ensuring that people who cannot function in society will die miserably and uncared for. Maybe Tylenol while pregnant is a risk factor for people who are already genetically predisposed to it or something. The data sucks so far, but maybe further study will show something. My sister worked on a study in the 2000s that was looking at this, as well as looking at getting the flu while pregnant. Nothing came of it.

spwa4 1y ago

Except autism, or as it was called then "autistic psychopathy" is anything but a condition or discovery https://archive.ph/nOH4z https://archive.ph/nOH4z (note: it's a nature.com link) https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43820794 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43820794 Autism is exactly one thing, according to its discoverer, Hans Asperger: a diagnosis to remove the mentally undesirable from society to safeguard the genetic purity of the noble aryan race (translated from the paper by Hans Asperger) Note: by removing he meant killing anyone with the "diagnosis", child or adult. Hans Asperger signed the orders to kill at least 5 children, probably many more. In other words: the "discovery of autism" was nothing other than an excuse to massacre children deemed to be a burden on families for whatever reason. If you were diagnosed with autism and weren't hyperintelligent, you were sent away to be killed. It was the absolute opposite of neurodiversity, of tolerance, of neurodivergent people and it was never meant as a real diagnosis of a real condition. It was an excuse for murder. Of course, psychology sees no problem with this little part of history and still revere Hans Asperger as a hero, as opposed to someone who should have been hanged at Nuremberg along with his colleagues. Psychology has a history of doing this. If you check what happened to Freud's patients, especially the women, you'll see that he was a seriously disturbed person as well. He made (in today's dollars) billions testifying in court that women who accused rich Austrians, often their own family, of rape they wanted to be raped and should be locked up for this deviant behavior ("not" to protect and satisfy the desire for revenge in their rapists). Oh and in a few cases, that male victims of murder by their own family were guilty of their own murder.

Babkock 1y ago

Posting this on Hacker News is like contacting a bunch of marine biologists to tell them "water = wet"