3 ms·

Interesting... where are you referring to when you say "this part of the world"? Britain itself, or Ireland?

by n4r9 1y ago

rsynnott 1y ago
Western Europe in general really, though specifically Ireland, yeah. It hasn't caught on here to the same degree that it has in the UK, at least not for now, fortunately (politically, it's mostly the preserve of fringe weirdos, whereas it's a major-party thing in the UK at this point), but some of the talking points have definitely come over. As to the sudden shift in the UK, Cameron and May's Conservative governments planned to introduce self-ID (and Cameron was very noisy about the UK's high rating on LGBT rights - of course it has since slid quite a bit in those rankings...), Boris was kinda transphobic but not particularly loud about it, but then by 2022 you see Penny Mordaunt basically facing a sort of transphobia purity test in her leadership campaign (https://news.sky.com/story/penny-mordaunt-dismisses-claims-about-her-views-on-trans-rights-as-smears-as-former-tory-leader-questions-her-experience-12653685 https://news.sky.com/story/penny-mordaunt-dismisses-claims-a...). It was a really rapid about-face.
- n4r9 1y ago
  Thanks for the info. I remember having dinner in Cambridge with a friend couple in what must have been the early 2010s; the woman was involved in local Labour politics but both were very opinionated about single-sex spaces, and there had been some scandal around someone taking the piss by identifying as a woman only on council meeting days and campaigning for women's officer. It felt very mumsnet.
- clessed 1y ago
  It was May's plan to introduce gender self-ID that galvanised such a strong and rapid response against it, largely coordinated on Mumsnet, within its Feminism and Women's Rights (FWR) subforum. In fact, the recent UK Supreme Court case which resulted in a ruling that references to "sex", "woman" and "man" in the Equality Act refer to biological sex (as in, a person's sex observed at birth), was brought by a small group of women who met on FWR. More generally, I think much of the reason that the UK has been so successful in resisting and reversing policy that prioritises self-declared gender identity over sex is that we have a strong tradition of women's advocacy for single-sex provisions, that has been pursued regardless of other political affiliations.
  - n4r9 1y ago
    We've excluded trans women from somewhere they don't pose a threat, forcing them into spaces where they are under considerable threat.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - clessed 1y ago
      What has led you to believe that?
      - n4r9 1y ago
        The evidence, e.g. > Current policy debates regarding transgender people’s access to restrooms and other gendered facilities are predicated on narratives about protecting the safety and privacy of women’s spaces. These narratives lack evidence showing any negative impacts on safety and privacy in women’s restrooms or other facilities when transgender people can use restrooms according to their gender identity. However, transgender people consistently report having negative experiences in restrooms perpetrated by others, including denial of access, verbal harassment, and physical assault. Evidence suggests that transgender people are put at added risk if required by law to use restrooms in accordance with their sex assigned at birth. https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/safety-in-restrooms-and-facilites/ https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/safety-i...
        clessed 1y ago
        But that report misses the point that women's rights to single-sex spaces is about boundaries, consent and protection from male presence in intimate settings. By only surveying "transgender experiences" it's basically just ignoring women who object to this and implying that women's boundaries and consent don't matter. Looking at crime statistics won't capture the discomfort and intimidation that many women will experience upon encountering intrusive males in female spaces, nor their withdrawal from public life as a consequence of this. Also it focuses heavily on toilet facilities but this is just a part of the wider issue. Like for example there's a much worse problem in women's prisons where males are being transferred in based on self-declared gender identity, with sexual assaults, rapes and impregnation of female prisoners by these men occurring as a direct result of such policy.

Interesting... where are you referring to when you say "this part of the world"? Britain itself, or Ireland?

by n4r9 1y ago

Interesting... where are you referring to when you say "this part of the world"? Britain itself, or Ireland?

Western Europe in general really, though specifically Ireland, yeah. It hasn't caught on here to the same degree that it has in the UK, at least not for now, fortunately (politically, it's mostly the preserve of fringe weirdos, whereas it's a major-party thing in the UK at this point), but some of the talking points have definitely come over. As to the sudden shift in the UK, Cameron and May's Conservative governments planned to introduce self-ID (and Cameron was very noisy about the UK's high rating on LGBT rights - of course it has since slid quite a bit in those rankings...), Boris was kinda transphobic but not particularly loud about it, but then by 2022 you see Penny Mordaunt basically facing a sort of transphobia purity test in her leadership campaign (https://news.sky.com/story/penny-mordaunt-dismisses-claims-about-her-views-on-trans-rights-as-smears-as-former-tory-leader-questions-her-experience-12653685 https://news.sky.com/story/penny-mordaunt-dismisses-claims-a...). It was a really rapid about-face.

n4r9 1y ago
Thanks for the info. I remember having dinner in Cambridge with a friend couple in what must have been the early 2010s; the woman was involved in local Labour politics but both were very opinionated about single-sex spaces, and there had been some scandal around someone taking the piss by identifying as a woman only on council meeting days and campaigning for women's officer. It felt very mumsnet.
clessed 1y ago
It was May's plan to introduce gender self-ID that galvanised such a strong and rapid response against it, largely coordinated on Mumsnet, within its Feminism and Women's Rights (FWR) subforum. In fact, the recent UK Supreme Court case which resulted in a ruling that references to "sex", "woman" and "man" in the Equality Act refer to biological sex (as in, a person's sex observed at birth), was brought by a small group of women who met on FWR. More generally, I think much of the reason that the UK has been so successful in resisting and reversing policy that prioritises self-declared gender identity over sex is that we have a strong tradition of women's advocacy for single-sex provisions, that has been pursued regardless of other political affiliations.
- n4r9 1y ago
  We've excluded trans women from somewhere they don't pose a threat, forcing them into spaces where they are under considerable threat.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - clessed 1y ago
    What has led you to believe that?
    - n4r9 1y ago
      The evidence, e.g. > Current policy debates regarding transgender people’s access to restrooms and other gendered facilities are predicated on narratives about protecting the safety and privacy of women’s spaces. These narratives lack evidence showing any negative impacts on safety and privacy in women’s restrooms or other facilities when transgender people can use restrooms according to their gender identity. However, transgender people consistently report having negative experiences in restrooms perpetrated by others, including denial of access, verbal harassment, and physical assault. Evidence suggests that transgender people are put at added risk if required by law to use restrooms in accordance with their sex assigned at birth. https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/safety-in-restrooms-and-facilites/ https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/safety-i...
      - clessed 1y ago
        But that report misses the point that women's rights to single-sex spaces is about boundaries, consent and protection from male presence in intimate settings. By only surveying "transgender experiences" it's basically just ignoring women who object to this and implying that women's boundaries and consent don't matter. Looking at crime statistics won't capture the discomfort and intimidation that many women will experience upon encountering intrusive males in female spaces, nor their withdrawal from public life as a consequence of this. Also it focuses heavily on toilet facilities but this is just a part of the wider issue. Like for example there's a much worse problem in women's prisons where males are being transferred in based on self-declared gender identity, with sexual assaults, rapes and impregnation of female prisoners by these men occurring as a direct result of such policy.