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"McCarthy’s detractors, meanwhile, found his writing overly mannered, his characters overly masculine, and accused him of relishing the violence he wrote about
by JKCalhoun 1y ago
"McCarthy’s detractors, meanwhile, found his writing overly mannered, his characters overly masculine, and accused him of relishing the violence he wrote about so vividly."
Yeah, maybe his detractors were on to something.
I haven't even started "The Road" because of its reputation. I have only read "Child of God" and wondered why someone might write about the worst among us. But then I'm not a fan of Quentin Tarantino as a filmmaker for the same reason.
- wahnfrieden 1y agoDepiction isn’t endorsement
- tolerance 1y agoMy impression is that Tarantino and McCarthy author with different motives in mind.
- justupvoting 1y agoI hope, at least, you managed to watch the films before you had an opinion on them. Tarantino's, I mean. The Road is not a violent or pessimistic book, tho there is violence and pessimism in it. Don't confuse the set and the setting. Why write about, 'the worst among us'? Some art (and Cormac tottered over the line between wrought and overwrought plenty) is about finding meaning in the margins, in the edge cases. The statistical noise at the outerbands of anything might make it an impossible endeavor for meaning-making, but that's why art. You try anyway. Some writers are skilled enough to make the mundane sing and that's great, but McCarthy obviously didn't seem to care for that approach. I think I can see why Child of God put you off enough for the thoughts of others to prevent any further effort, but I'd suggest you give him another go. I'd save blood meridian for later tho; If you don't get too distracted by the setting of the road, it's a perfectly optimistic book. As the poet said, something in us does not erode (free pun!)
- BrenBarn 1y agoI think it's a stretch to call The Road optimistic.
- aYsY4dDQ2NrcNzA 1y agoIt’s quite a stretch.
- justupvoting 1y agoI don't think so; preserving goodness and decency comes at little personal cost to most of us, but McCarthy's effort in the book is at its core a depiction of these things surviving even the apocalypse, and at an incredible cost. That fire they carry is not extinguished even in a world where all systems and pretenses at civilization have been ruined. It finds the wider flame, and decent folks to tend it. It is one of the more optimistic works he's done, not despite the setting, but because.
- bexsella 1y agoI would argue that the ending of the book is optimistic despite the event that precedes it. An imperfect father wants the best for his child, and does the best he can with the hand he's dealt. In a dying world of cannibals and worse, there are people who are good, and whose surroundings don't poison their view on what it means to be good. "Do you carry the fire?" is, to my mind, an incredibly optimistic sentiment.
- BrenBarn 1y agoThe ending is definitely the most optimistic part of the book, but on balance I think the overall picture is still excruciatingly bleak. It gives me the impression that any optimism of the part of the characters is likely unwarranted. They're still doomed.
- justupvoting 1y agoThe point is that everyone is doomed (even if you imagine we can survive the civilization-murdering tools we've cobbled up, we can't outrun physics), but that even at our most vulnerable, since the book occurs during a period directly after Armageddon, it is possible for some goodness in us to persist. I don't want to spoil, but the optimism isn't for the characters, it's for we the reader, and the species. The thimble of fire joins the wider flame. Goodness survives even there, and even then.
- JKCalhoun 1y agoFWIW, I've seen every one of Tarantino's films since "Reservoir Dogs". I may give "The Road" a chance though.
- dyauspitr 1y agoHow is overly masculine a bad thing? Makes me want to read it even more.
- lomase 1y agoJust read it and you will find out. Is a really short book.
- dyauspitr 1y agoOh I have read almost all of McCarthy’s novels including this one. That’s beside the point though, what’s wrong about something being overtly masculine?
- mirabilis 1y agoI’m not certain it’s the case for McCarthy’s works, but I think inept attempts at manly men could certainly veer into accidental parody. An “overly masculine” character might just bring Johnny Bravo to mind. To offer an example, I tried watching “Untamed” recently and the highly concentrated gruff machismo coming off of that main character mostly had me wondering if he would ever do or say anything that wasn’t so cliche as to be scripted by predictive text. (Maybe it gets better, but the first few episodes did not hold me.)
- lomase 1y ago[flagged]
- dang 1y agoPlease don't cross into personal attack. We had to warn you about this just a little while ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45419871 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45419871. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- johnnienaked 1y ago[flagged]
- jonahx 1y agoYou don't have to love them, but dismissing two of the 20th century's great artists in their respective mediums while having a blog named "engineersneedart" is certainly ironic.
- JKCalhoun 1y agoI don’t see the irony or any conflict. I just don’t celebrate the worst in humanity and have no desire to see it in art either. Perhaps I think the world is dark enough and that the better art inspires and can lift us. I don’t “love” either artist to be sure. Is that also dismissive? I’m not sure.
- lunatuna 1y agoI’ve only read The Road and found it extremely difficult because of the nihilism. I put it down in the middle of it and stewed for 6 months before I picked it up again. I am so glad I did. I think his detractors are right, it is violent, nihilistic, masculine and whatever else. Through that the other side of the contrast becomes so vivid. Maybe there are better ways to get there. For me it hit. My daughter and I talk about the message in the book regularly. Though she has yet to read it. I see more clearly my purpose as a dad and as a member in my community. Totally worth the read.
- tehnub 1y agoIt sounds like the book itself isn't nihilistic but there may be nihilistic characters in it, which doesn't seem like something worth criticizing it over.
- blast 1y agoHow do you tell that a book with nihilistic characters isn't a nihilistic book? The difference is obvious in principle, but I'm not sure it is in practice.
- justupvoting 1y agoI can't think of a single character in the book for whom nihilism is their defining trait, and certainly not the primary characters. The effort to preserve goodness in the world only really matters when it's hard, when it comes at cost. The book turns that up to 11, but that is why it is hopeful. If you want to read McCarthy doing nihilism, maybe try the sunset limited. "You give up the world line by line. Stoically. And then one day you realize that your courage is farcical. It doesn't mean anything. You've become an accomplice in your own annihilation and there is nothing you can do about it. Everything you do closes a door somewhere ahead of you. And finally there is only one door left."
- philipallstar 1y ago> I think his detractors are right, it is violent, nihilistic, masculine and whatever else. Thinking masculine is a criticism is quite a tell.
- mirabilis 1y agoHaven’t read “The Road” yet, but I was able to take the time to read “Blood Meridian” this year— I don’t think I would describe the violence depicted as “relished.” It came across as vivid in an arduous, can’t-look-away-from-the-wreckage-so-bear-witness way, and I was really intrigued by how the Kid’s POV dissolves during the worst of it. And about “why someone might write about the worst among us”—the glory-seeking and hypocrisy of the Glanton gang also felt timely, to be frank. So, to me, it felt more like a clinical exposure of ugly rot rather than a luridly violent power fantasy like Inglorious Basterds. Though I do kinda feel the “masculine” note in that quote haha, if only because the women that appeared in the story were steadfastly hospitable (or victims.) Disregarding any incident where the Judge was involved, it actually felt quaint, especially in contrast to everything else going on. I’ll be interested as I check out the rest of his catalogue as to if the stomach-churning detail involved still feels necessary, or if my tolerance starts to change.
- nylonstrung 1y agoYeah it's hard to say he's "relishing" violence when he a very well-researched depiction of complete horrific and genocidal chapter of the Manifest Destiny period that was essentially forgotten. I see the violence as a refutation of the idealized, sanitized version of the West popularized in mainstream Westerns. Where law and authority = good, even though the Glanton gang was funded and armed by US authorities
- justupvoting 1y agoI think McCarthy is one of the greatest American writers, but I will say my two main gripes with him are his tendency to drift over the line into overwrought (sometimes the biblical language is incredibly powerful, sometimes not), and his utter inability to write women. He did ok with Alicia in his last couple books, but even there he flounders some. "If I had a baby I wouldn't care about reality"? Hmm, ok? "His face was all covered in girljuice"? C'mon bud. But no writer is flawless.
- Slow_Hand 1y agoWatched a video essay yesterday by a female reader who found the Aunt’s four page monologue in ‘All the Pretty Horses’ one of the most insightful and moving explanations of women she’d ever read. She was particularly surprised to find such a passage in a book by McCarthy who she expected to be some gruff man’s man. I haven’t read that passage myself, but seemingly Cormac was capable of writing women when he chose to. Perhaps not enough, though.
- rgrieselhuber 1y agoI've always gotten the sense from McCarthy that he was keenly aware that civilization is not just something to take for granted and that there is always something dangerous at the edges that needs to be carefully guarded against.
- sharkweek 1y ago100% His worldview seemed to be that humans as a species are extremely violent and capable of the most inhumane acts and we’re hanging on by a thread. Some of his writing often covered what just a slight altering of our societal moral compass might look like. Probably my favorite author of all time, him or maybe Delilo.
- JKCalhoun 1y agoInstead, in my world-view most humans want to be kind. (And I don’t carry a gun everywhere like McCarthy either, ha ha.)
- privong 1y ago@sharweek said > Some of his writing often covered what just a slight altering of our societal moral compass might look like. @JKCalhoun > in my world-view most humans want to be kind. These two views aren't necessarily in conflict. Individuals can overwhelmingly want to be kind but still be in a system where society pushes them to behave to the contrary.
- internet_points 1y ago> He said that things would get better. > The old man shook his head doubtfully, paying the band of his cap through his fingers. I'm satisfied they caint get no worse, he said. > But there are no absolutes in human misery and things can always get worse, only Suttree didn't say so.
- username223 1y ago"Child of God?" You started at just about the darkest, least approachable place. Try "No Country for Old Men" or "All the Pretty Horses," both of which are far easier to read and contemplate.
- brennanpeterson 1y agoOr The Crossing, which, at least for the first third is his sparest and best writing. At least, I prefer the marriage of the gothic sensibility and poetry with the classic western.
- johnnienaked 1y agoThe first third ripped my heart out
- nylonstrung 1y agoAll the Pretty Horses has much of the bleakness that characterizes his stories but also genuinely beauty and romanticism that he pulls off equally well Love it
- phendrenad2 1y agoI have a theory that everyone has a different level of detachment vs self-insertion when consuming a fictional narrative. Those more self-insertive probably shouldn't read his books.
- wahnfrieden 1y agoIt's a media literacy issue. It's good to read challenging works to grow your understanding. I think the self-insertive tendency comes from consuming works oriented toward it with typical hero/villain structures
- lubesGordi 1y agoI think its just a simple matter of aesthetics. Some people find violence ugly, and don't like looking at it. Some people think that by looking at it you're somehow coming to a greater understanding of the world or something. Maybe that is the case for some super sheltered individuals, but I doubt it's the case on the whole. If anyone has any ideas on what the point of violence in art is, I'm open to hearing it. Obviously horror is a genre and so is gore, and people seem to enjoy being shocked. I don't think that is what McCarthy was going for though. And he wasn't going for the vengeance-catharsis angle like Tarantino either.
- crabkin 1y agoDon't really think so. I love Pynchon and there's not really a character I'm latching onto when I read that. McCarthy and Pynchon both fetishize a sort of violence. I find McCarthy's writing going there many times for shock value or aesthetic reasons and it makes me take him less seriously. Other people have mentioned Tarantino and I think that is apt.