4 ms·

> It doesn't say "if your opinion is correct". Opinions cannot be right or wrong. > It makes no exceptions whatsoever, and that is what we need to strive for.

by gwd 1y ago

> It doesn't say "if your opinion is correct". Opinions cannot be right or wrong. > It makes no exceptions whatsoever, and that is what we need to strive for. It certainly does. See libel / defamation / perjury / false representation / fraud / false advertising / trademark infringement.

xienze 1y ago
> Opinions cannot be right or wrong. I’d say if you can be jailed for a particular opinion, someone has certainly made a judgement call that your opinion is wrong!
- gwd 1y ago
  > I’d say if you can be jailed for a particular opinion Can you give an example of someone in a modern democracy jailed for their "opinion"? To wit, are the examples you're thinking of "statement of opinion", "statement of fact", "pejorative insult", or "incitement"? Saying "I think <public figure> is an idiot" is an opinion. "The earth is flat" or "The holocaust never happened" are not opinions; neither is, "Kick out all the <insert pejorative here>." And yeah, in North Korea you'll absolutely be jailed for expressing some opinions. That may make them illegal, but it doesn't make them no longer opinions.
  - xienze 1y ago
    > "The holocaust never happened" are not opinions But would you dare state out loud in Germany that, in your opinion, the official number of Holocaust victims is actually much less than what's been widely reported? Even if you had what you believed was solid evidence supporting your argument? I bet you wouldn't. > neither is, "Kick out all the <insert pejorative here>." How about voicing your opinion that <people from some country> should be barred from emigrating to <European country> because <crime statistics>? Bet you wouldn't try that either, because your opinion is in "hate speech" territory now.
    - freejazz 1y ago
      >Even if you had what you believed was solid evidence supporting your argument? I bet you wouldn't. Ugh, what?
    - 9dev 1y ago
      Solid evidence that generations of historians have somehow overlooked? Great, let’s hear it! I can assure you that Germany would welcome anything that lifts some guilt from our collective shoulders here, so if you as opposed to a lot of smart people know the truth, we will invite you on a beer for sure.
  - femiagbabiaka 1y ago
    https://www.counterterrorism.police.uk/man-from-harlow-jailed-for-posting-support-on-social-media-for-terrorist-groups/ https://www.counterterrorism.police.uk/man-from-harlow-jaile... https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5yl7p4l11po https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5yl7p4l11po https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_R%C3%BCmeysa_%C3%96zt%C3%BCrk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_R%C3%BCmeysa_%C3%... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_Mahmoud_Khalil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_Mahmoud_Khalil
    - gwd 1y ago
      > Connolly, from Northampton, ...urged her followers on X to "set fire" to hotels housing asylum seekers. This isn't an opinion, it's incitement to a crime. > Detention of Rümeysa Öztürk / Mahmoud Khalil These clearly are for opinion, and are widely criticized as being vindictive and unconstitutional.
  - buzer 1y ago
    > "The holocaust never happened" Not really an opinion but it can be a belief. I'm not sure why we are okay with people believing that Earth is ~6000 years old, but not with someone believing that we are in a simulation and everything before e.g. year 1999 is just a collective memory fabrication.
    - Braxton1980 1y ago
      >Not really an opinion but it can be a belief. Yes. You can believe this fact to be false but you might also be lying. How do you show this? By showing why you believe it to be false
    - IAmBroom 1y ago
      I am not "okay" with either belief, but it's not my place to police other people's beliefs - so long as they don't hurt others. If you want to visit that idiotic Noah's Ark museum, go. If you want to prohibit teaching about evolution in schools, go to hell.
  - whycome 1y ago
    How is "the earth is flat" not an opinion? People form opinions based on the information they have (or are willing to accept). For their worldview, their opinion is valid. If they don't accept certain voices of reason, they have that right. We saw people not allowed to ask about the origins of the covid19 virus because it went against a public narrative. At the beginning of the pandemic, people who expressed that masks should be worn were rejected by even government officials. People might not have gone to jail, but they did have voices and access to society limited or removed because of their opinions.
- croes 1y ago
  I doubt that they are jailed for opinions but for lies or threats or defamation etc.
  - IAmBroom 1y ago
    I guarantee you that, if only they could, there are governments that would jail people for opinions. The US would have likely have done something to homosexuals, with or without sexual activity. Ditto on supporting Communism 'in your heart'. NK and other countries would do the same (OK, not NK for supporters of communism...).
- IAmBroom 1y ago
  People can make judgment calls. Those are opinions. That still doesn't make yours, nor theirs, wrong. Immoral, unethical, impractical, or contrary to human rights, perhaps.
  - gwd 1y ago
    > People can make judgment calls. Those are opinions. I'm not sure that's a helpful distinction. In some sense, everything we classify as a 'fact' is a judgement call: is the sun a giant ball of fusing hydrogen? I mean, probably, but maybe we're all living in some sort simulation and it doesn't really exist at all; Or maybe you are living in your own personal "Truman Show", being fed lies by everyone who shows you scientific "evidence" about the sun's nature. But "the sun is a giant ball of fusing hydrogen" is a different type of statement than "chocolate ice cream is better than vanilla", or "Mozart is better than Beethoven".
    - collinmcnulty 1y ago
      I think the most useful distinction is between “opinions” and “beliefs” rather than opinions and facts. A belief represents your confidence in the truth or falsehood of a statement. While an opinion has no underlying objective reality. “Apples are better than peaches” is an opinion. “More people ate apples than bananas in 2024” is a belief; it may be a true belief or a false belief but there is an answer.
    - Braxton1980 1y ago
      An opinion can't be falsified. "The sun is a giant ball of fusing hydrogen" has the possibility of being proven false. This means it's either a true or false fact. If I said "NYC is the capital of the United States"* I'm either lying or mistaken What makes it a lie vs mistaken? Whether it's a genuine belief, that I have a reason to have the belief. For example if I made the assumption it's the capital because it's the biggest city then I'm mistaken. It's a lie if I know it's not true, if I ignore information that falsifies the fact. *To avoid semantics I mean the official capital of the country not like "it's important"
      - 1y ago

by gwd 1y ago

xienze 1y ago

> Opinions cannot be right or wrong. I’d say if you can be jailed for a particular opinion, someone has certainly made a judgement call that your opinion is wrong!

gwd 1y ago
> I’d say if you can be jailed for a particular opinion Can you give an example of someone in a modern democracy jailed for their "opinion"? To wit, are the examples you're thinking of "statement of opinion", "statement of fact", "pejorative insult", or "incitement"? Saying "I think <public figure> is an idiot" is an opinion. "The earth is flat" or "The holocaust never happened" are not opinions; neither is, "Kick out all the <insert pejorative here>." And yeah, in North Korea you'll absolutely be jailed for expressing some opinions. That may make them illegal, but it doesn't make them no longer opinions.
- xienze 1y ago
  > "The holocaust never happened" are not opinions But would you dare state out loud in Germany that, in your opinion, the official number of Holocaust victims is actually much less than what's been widely reported? Even if you had what you believed was solid evidence supporting your argument? I bet you wouldn't. > neither is, "Kick out all the <insert pejorative here>." How about voicing your opinion that <people from some country> should be barred from emigrating to <European country> because <crime statistics>? Bet you wouldn't try that either, because your opinion is in "hate speech" territory now.
  - freejazz 1y ago
    >Even if you had what you believed was solid evidence supporting your argument? I bet you wouldn't. Ugh, what?
  - 9dev 1y ago
    Solid evidence that generations of historians have somehow overlooked? Great, let’s hear it! I can assure you that Germany would welcome anything that lifts some guilt from our collective shoulders here, so if you as opposed to a lot of smart people know the truth, we will invite you on a beer for sure.
- femiagbabiaka 1y ago
  https://www.counterterrorism.police.uk/man-from-harlow-jailed-for-posting-support-on-social-media-for-terrorist-groups/ https://www.counterterrorism.police.uk/man-from-harlow-jaile... https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5yl7p4l11po https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5yl7p4l11po https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_R%C3%BCmeysa_%C3%96zt%C3%BCrk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_R%C3%BCmeysa_%C3%... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_Mahmoud_Khalil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_Mahmoud_Khalil
  - gwd 1y ago
    > Connolly, from Northampton, ...urged her followers on X to "set fire" to hotels housing asylum seekers. This isn't an opinion, it's incitement to a crime. > Detention of Rümeysa Öztürk / Mahmoud Khalil These clearly are for opinion, and are widely criticized as being vindictive and unconstitutional.
- buzer 1y ago
  > "The holocaust never happened" Not really an opinion but it can be a belief. I'm not sure why we are okay with people believing that Earth is ~6000 years old, but not with someone believing that we are in a simulation and everything before e.g. year 1999 is just a collective memory fabrication.
  - Braxton1980 1y ago
    >Not really an opinion but it can be a belief. Yes. You can believe this fact to be false but you might also be lying. How do you show this? By showing why you believe it to be false
  - IAmBroom 1y ago
    I am not "okay" with either belief, but it's not my place to police other people's beliefs - so long as they don't hurt others. If you want to visit that idiotic Noah's Ark museum, go. If you want to prohibit teaching about evolution in schools, go to hell.
- whycome 1y ago
  How is "the earth is flat" not an opinion? People form opinions based on the information they have (or are willing to accept). For their worldview, their opinion is valid. If they don't accept certain voices of reason, they have that right. We saw people not allowed to ask about the origins of the covid19 virus because it went against a public narrative. At the beginning of the pandemic, people who expressed that masks should be worn were rejected by even government officials. People might not have gone to jail, but they did have voices and access to society limited or removed because of their opinions.
croes 1y ago
I doubt that they are jailed for opinions but for lies or threats or defamation etc.
- IAmBroom 1y ago
  I guarantee you that, if only they could, there are governments that would jail people for opinions. The US would have likely have done something to homosexuals, with or without sexual activity. Ditto on supporting Communism 'in your heart'. NK and other countries would do the same (OK, not NK for supporters of communism...).
IAmBroom 1y ago
People can make judgment calls. Those are opinions. That still doesn't make yours, nor theirs, wrong. Immoral, unethical, impractical, or contrary to human rights, perhaps.
- gwd 1y ago
  > People can make judgment calls. Those are opinions. I'm not sure that's a helpful distinction. In some sense, everything we classify as a 'fact' is a judgement call: is the sun a giant ball of fusing hydrogen? I mean, probably, but maybe we're all living in some sort simulation and it doesn't really exist at all; Or maybe you are living in your own personal "Truman Show", being fed lies by everyone who shows you scientific "evidence" about the sun's nature. But "the sun is a giant ball of fusing hydrogen" is a different type of statement than "chocolate ice cream is better than vanilla", or "Mozart is better than Beethoven".
  - collinmcnulty 1y ago
    I think the most useful distinction is between “opinions” and “beliefs” rather than opinions and facts. A belief represents your confidence in the truth or falsehood of a statement. While an opinion has no underlying objective reality. “Apples are better than peaches” is an opinion. “More people ate apples than bananas in 2024” is a belief; it may be a true belief or a false belief but there is an answer.
  - Braxton1980 1y ago
    An opinion can't be falsified. "The sun is a giant ball of fusing hydrogen" has the possibility of being proven false. This means it's either a true or false fact. If I said "NYC is the capital of the United States"* I'm either lying or mistaken What makes it a lie vs mistaken? Whether it's a genuine belief, that I have a reason to have the belief. For example if I made the assumption it's the capital because it's the biggest city then I'm mistaken. It's a lie if I know it's not true, if I ignore information that falsifies the fact. *To avoid semantics I mean the official capital of the country not like "it's important"
    - 1y ago