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One of the most exceptional CEOs I've worked with was a lawyer. I still think the proverb is largely correct, along with the other proverb about the exception p

by flkiwi 1y ago

One of the most exceptional CEOs I've worked with was a lawyer. I still think the proverb is largely correct, along with the other proverb about the exception proving the rule.

parineum 1y ago
That's not what "the exception proves the rule" means. It means, when you see a sign that says an exception, "no parking Wednesdays between 8 and 12", it proves the rule that parking is allowed otherwise.
- embwbam 1y ago
  I have heard that phrase a million times and never understood it until your example. Thank you
- cgio 1y ago
  A phrase does not mean anything by itself. People mean something when they use it. You could argue that expressions carry some meaning, by virtue of shared use. But your definition does not align with the meaning most people make of this specific expression as you can witness above.
  - parineum 1y ago
    The way most people use it is wrong though and not in the normal "language evolves" way. The exception of a lawyer being a good CEO does not, in any way, prove that lawyers are not good CEOs .
    - tsimionescu 1y ago
      The phrase "most people mean the wrong thing by this phrase" makes no sense. A phrase means what most people mean by saying it, or understand by hearing it. So, "the exception that proves the rule" is, as its main modern meaning, a joking way of admitting that a rule (especially one that the speaker had argued for) is not actually a universal rule, while maintaining that it generally holds true. The examples of legal signs and so on are a more specific, technical, meaning that is only used in certain contexts, such as actual legal proceedings or at least informal discussions about laws or contract terms. When /u/flkiwi above said this phrase, they obviously meant it in the joking sense I gave, and which they had actually explained above. They agree that, in general, lawyers make bad CEOs, but they also personally know of exceptions. This is not "wrong usage", as proven by the fact that everyone who read the comment understood exactly what they meant. This whole thing reminds me of the people who complain about the use of literally as an amplifier instead of for its primary meaning as "wrong", with seemingly no understanding of how flourishes and rhetoric work (nor even of the history of words like "very", which used to be quite similar to "literally" a long time ago).
    - bildung 1y ago
      Words are just noises. Think of them as pointers. They point to a concept in the brain. What concept that may be differs from person to person. But as long as the words point to something, they aren't used wrongly. The idea that there was some point in history were the pointer target was officially designated to be x is just false. That point in time never existed.
      - parineum 1y ago
        My point isn't that the use of the phrase is wrong, the point is that the colloquial understanding of the phrase is a bad concept. [All] lawyers are bad CEOs is a statement that was made. Evidence to the contrary was presented. "The exception proves the rule" was used to dismiss that evidence. It's used in a similar way as "God works in mysterious ways".
  - sfn42 1y ago
    People misuse expressions. A common one is the customer is always right. The actual wording is the customer is always right in matters of taste but people cut off the ending which changes it from a sensible and useful proverb to a bunch of nonsense. Of course the customer isn't always right. They're always right in terms of what they want to buy, not in all other terms. Similarly an exception like a lawyer being a good ceo does not prove a rule like lawyers are bad CEOs. It's nonsense. People who don't understand the proverb took it and misused it and then others took after them and here we are, I've been wondering about that proverb my entire life and I never understood how it makes any sense. Now I finally do, and I'm glad the other commenter clarified it
    - j5r5myk 1y ago
      There is a common phenomenon where people claim proverbial quotes were originally longer. One I often hear is “Jack of all trades master of none” originally including the follow up “often better than a master of none.” If you research this, as well as the customer as always right as you claim, you will find no evidence of their longer ‘original’ forms [1]. [1] https://www.snopes.com/articles/468815/customer-is-always-right-origin/ https://www.snopes.com/articles/468815/customer-is-always-ri...
    - bee_rider 1y ago
      On top of what j5r5myk mentioned, there is a fairly good record of the origin on “the customer is always right,” (described on Wikipedia) because it was something like a moderately well known person’s catchphrase, in an era when newspapers and marketing existed. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_customer_is_always_right https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_customer_is_always_right There’s some quibbling to be had about the meaning, but it puts it closer to “assume good faith” or something like that, rather than reducing it to just preferences. > The earliest known printed mention of the phrase is a September 1905 article in the Boston Globe about Field, which describes him as "broadly speaking" adhering to the theory that "the customer is always right". > However, John William Tebbel was of the opinion that Field never himself actually said such a thing, because he was "no master of idiom". Tebbel rather believed it probable that what Field would have actually said was "Assume the customer is right until it is plain beyond all question that he is not."
  - ahoka 1y ago
    A lot of people say a lot of stupid things, it does not make them less stupid and incorrect. Unless a million flies can't be wrong!
    - SilasX 1y ago
      But the intended insight isn't stupid, and "the exception proves the rule" is a natural, easily-inferred contraction of "the rarity of finding an exception proves the general validity of the rule".
- rendaw 1y ago
  GP's use is listed here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule#Proving_the_validity_of_a_rule_of_thumb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule... under "Proving the validity of a rule of thumb"
  - parineum 1y ago
    It's listed there as a way that people use it and then calls that usage objectionable and a misunderstanding. I don't dispute that people use it that way but it's objectively a misuse. The phrase's misuse implies that evidence against a statement supports the statement. > In many uses of the phrase, however, the existence of an exception is taken to more definitively 'prove' a rule to which the exception does not fit. > In what Fowler describes as the "most objectionable" variation of the phrase,[1] this sort of use comes closest to meaning "there is an exception to every rule", or even that the presence of an exception makes a rule more true; these uses Fowler attributes to misunderstanding.
    - sach1 1y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_description https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_description Try to understand that there is no individual ownership over turns of phrase, and that they tend to shift around over time. Bugs Bunny turned Nimrod from a byword for a competent hunter into an insult. This is natural and all of your favorite words have or will be subject to it as long as there are humans to communicate with them.
      - riffraff 1y ago
        Ooooh that's why nimrod is an insult! Now it makes sense! Thank you! Btw, let me add my personal pet peeve: "egregiously" somehow went from meaning "very good" to mean "very bad" in American English. In my native language "egregiamente" still has the original meaning so I was confused for a long time.
        willvarfar 1y ago
- ma2rten 1y ago
  Your use of the phrase makes no sense. It's the "no parking" that proofs the rule and not the exception.
  - parineum 1y ago
    "No parking on Wednesday between 9-12pm" Imagine you got a parking ticket on Tuesday. What would your defense in court be?
  - ddalex 1y ago
    that's actually the correct use of the phrase "the exception proves the rule" the rule is that the parking is allowed; the exception is that it's not allowed on Wednesdays; they didn't bother spelling out "parking is allowed at all other times except"
- jackyinger 1y ago
  There’s no need to be so literal. We’re discussing here, not formulating mathematical statements. Read for what was intended by the author and you’ll learn more.
  - parineum 1y ago
    > Lawyers are bad CEOs > That's weird because this one was good > Ah an exception to the rule. That proves it, lawyers are bad CEOs! Is that not what was intended by the author?
- ahoka 1y ago
  Attributed to Cicero, who was basically a lawyer.
- flkiwi 1y ago
  God Internet pendants are exhausting. I KNOW, but it's a harmless rhetorical device. This begs the question of why you care. There you go, that's a good one to get fired up about.
  - parineum 1y ago
    > I KNOW, but it's a harmless rhetorical device. I don't really care but but when I found out the actual meaning of the phrase (the usage of which never really made sense to me), it made a lot more sense to me. I thought it was interesting. I'd also argue that "it's harmless" is not always accurate. It's usage dismisses counter-evidence to a statement. Depending on the case, it may or may not be harmless.
- amelius 1y ago
  That's a logical fallacy.
  - bee_rider 1y ago
    But parking signs are not proofs.
    - amelius 1y ago
      That doesn't absolve you from being at least logically correct.
      - bee_rider 1y ago
        I think denying the antecedent (that’s what this is, right?) is a well known fallacy precisely because it is often the intended implication in typical speech.
- SilasX 1y ago
  Yes, but in common usage it has come to also mean "the [rarity of finding an] exception proves the [general validity of] the rule", and it was clear from context which one the parent meant.
safety1st 1y ago
Well, the proverb doesn't necessarily attribute the death of the company to the lawyer. If a company is dying (aka winding down), you most likely do in fact want a lawyer in charge, whatever their job title may be. For instance why would you put a scientist or engineer in charge of negotiating your acquisition? It's a great proverb and in particular the "accountants in charge to extract maximum value after maturity, lawyers in charge at the end to wind it down or sell it off" part is accurate of many businesses in general. No company gets to live in the startup and growth stages forever. At a certain point shareholders decide to get everything they can out of their investment and move on.

by flkiwi 1y ago

One of the most exceptional CEOs I've worked with was a lawyer. I still think the proverb is largely correct, along with the other proverb about the exception proving the rule.

parineum 1y ago

That's not what "the exception proves the rule" means. It means, when you see a sign that says an exception, "no parking Wednesdays between 8 and 12", it proves the rule that parking is allowed otherwise.

embwbam 1y ago
I have heard that phrase a million times and never understood it until your example. Thank you
cgio 1y ago
A phrase does not mean anything by itself. People mean something when they use it. You could argue that expressions carry some meaning, by virtue of shared use. But your definition does not align with the meaning most people make of this specific expression as you can witness above.
- parineum 1y ago
  The way most people use it is wrong though and not in the normal "language evolves" way. The exception of a lawyer being a good CEO does not, in any way, prove that lawyers are not good CEOs .
  - tsimionescu 1y ago
    The phrase "most people mean the wrong thing by this phrase" makes no sense. A phrase means what most people mean by saying it, or understand by hearing it. So, "the exception that proves the rule" is, as its main modern meaning, a joking way of admitting that a rule (especially one that the speaker had argued for) is not actually a universal rule, while maintaining that it generally holds true. The examples of legal signs and so on are a more specific, technical, meaning that is only used in certain contexts, such as actual legal proceedings or at least informal discussions about laws or contract terms. When /u/flkiwi above said this phrase, they obviously meant it in the joking sense I gave, and which they had actually explained above. They agree that, in general, lawyers make bad CEOs, but they also personally know of exceptions. This is not "wrong usage", as proven by the fact that everyone who read the comment understood exactly what they meant. This whole thing reminds me of the people who complain about the use of literally as an amplifier instead of for its primary meaning as "wrong", with seemingly no understanding of how flourishes and rhetoric work (nor even of the history of words like "very", which used to be quite similar to "literally" a long time ago).
  - bildung 1y ago
    Words are just noises. Think of them as pointers. They point to a concept in the brain. What concept that may be differs from person to person. But as long as the words point to something, they aren't used wrongly. The idea that there was some point in history were the pointer target was officially designated to be x is just false. That point in time never existed.
    - parineum 1y ago
      My point isn't that the use of the phrase is wrong, the point is that the colloquial understanding of the phrase is a bad concept. [All] lawyers are bad CEOs is a statement that was made. Evidence to the contrary was presented. "The exception proves the rule" was used to dismiss that evidence. It's used in a similar way as "God works in mysterious ways".
- sfn42 1y ago
  People misuse expressions. A common one is the customer is always right. The actual wording is the customer is always right in matters of taste but people cut off the ending which changes it from a sensible and useful proverb to a bunch of nonsense. Of course the customer isn't always right. They're always right in terms of what they want to buy, not in all other terms. Similarly an exception like a lawyer being a good ceo does not prove a rule like lawyers are bad CEOs. It's nonsense. People who don't understand the proverb took it and misused it and then others took after them and here we are, I've been wondering about that proverb my entire life and I never understood how it makes any sense. Now I finally do, and I'm glad the other commenter clarified it
  - j5r5myk 1y ago
    There is a common phenomenon where people claim proverbial quotes were originally longer. One I often hear is “Jack of all trades master of none” originally including the follow up “often better than a master of none.” If you research this, as well as the customer as always right as you claim, you will find no evidence of their longer ‘original’ forms [1]. [1] https://www.snopes.com/articles/468815/customer-is-always-right-origin/ https://www.snopes.com/articles/468815/customer-is-always-ri...
  - bee_rider 1y ago
    On top of what j5r5myk mentioned, there is a fairly good record of the origin on “the customer is always right,” (described on Wikipedia) because it was something like a moderately well known person’s catchphrase, in an era when newspapers and marketing existed. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_customer_is_always_right https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_customer_is_always_right There’s some quibbling to be had about the meaning, but it puts it closer to “assume good faith” or something like that, rather than reducing it to just preferences. > The earliest known printed mention of the phrase is a September 1905 article in the Boston Globe about Field, which describes him as "broadly speaking" adhering to the theory that "the customer is always right". > However, John William Tebbel was of the opinion that Field never himself actually said such a thing, because he was "no master of idiom". Tebbel rather believed it probable that what Field would have actually said was "Assume the customer is right until it is plain beyond all question that he is not."
- ahoka 1y ago
  A lot of people say a lot of stupid things, it does not make them less stupid and incorrect. Unless a million flies can't be wrong!
  - SilasX 1y ago
    But the intended insight isn't stupid, and "the exception proves the rule" is a natural, easily-inferred contraction of "the rarity of finding an exception proves the general validity of the rule".
rendaw 1y ago
GP's use is listed here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule#Proving_the_validity_of_a_rule_of_thumb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule... under "Proving the validity of a rule of thumb"
- parineum 1y ago
  It's listed there as a way that people use it and then calls that usage objectionable and a misunderstanding. I don't dispute that people use it that way but it's objectively a misuse. The phrase's misuse implies that evidence against a statement supports the statement. > In many uses of the phrase, however, the existence of an exception is taken to more definitively 'prove' a rule to which the exception does not fit. > In what Fowler describes as the "most objectionable" variation of the phrase,[1] this sort of use comes closest to meaning "there is an exception to every rule", or even that the presence of an exception makes a rule more true; these uses Fowler attributes to misunderstanding.
  - sach1 1y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_description https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_description Try to understand that there is no individual ownership over turns of phrase, and that they tend to shift around over time. Bugs Bunny turned Nimrod from a byword for a competent hunter into an insult. This is natural and all of your favorite words have or will be subject to it as long as there are humans to communicate with them.
    - riffraff 1y ago
      Ooooh that's why nimrod is an insult! Now it makes sense! Thank you! Btw, let me add my personal pet peeve: "egregiously" somehow went from meaning "very good" to mean "very bad" in American English. In my native language "egregiamente" still has the original meaning so I was confused for a long time.
      - willvarfar 1y ago
ma2rten 1y ago
Your use of the phrase makes no sense. It's the "no parking" that proofs the rule and not the exception.
- parineum 1y ago
  "No parking on Wednesday between 9-12pm" Imagine you got a parking ticket on Tuesday. What would your defense in court be?
- ddalex 1y ago
  that's actually the correct use of the phrase "the exception proves the rule" the rule is that the parking is allowed; the exception is that it's not allowed on Wednesdays; they didn't bother spelling out "parking is allowed at all other times except"
jackyinger 1y ago
There’s no need to be so literal. We’re discussing here, not formulating mathematical statements. Read for what was intended by the author and you’ll learn more.
- parineum 1y ago
  > Lawyers are bad CEOs > That's weird because this one was good > Ah an exception to the rule. That proves it, lawyers are bad CEOs! Is that not what was intended by the author?
ahoka 1y ago
Attributed to Cicero, who was basically a lawyer.
flkiwi 1y ago
God Internet pendants are exhausting. I KNOW, but it's a harmless rhetorical device. This begs the question of why you care. There you go, that's a good one to get fired up about.
- parineum 1y ago
  > I KNOW, but it's a harmless rhetorical device. I don't really care but but when I found out the actual meaning of the phrase (the usage of which never really made sense to me), it made a lot more sense to me. I thought it was interesting. I'd also argue that "it's harmless" is not always accurate. It's usage dismisses counter-evidence to a statement. Depending on the case, it may or may not be harmless.
amelius 1y ago
That's a logical fallacy.
- bee_rider 1y ago
  But parking signs are not proofs.
  - amelius 1y ago
    That doesn't absolve you from being at least logically correct.
    - bee_rider 1y ago
      I think denying the antecedent (that’s what this is, right?) is a well known fallacy precisely because it is often the intended implication in typical speech.
SilasX 1y ago
Yes, but in common usage it has come to also mean "the [rarity of finding an] exception proves the [general validity of] the rule", and it was clear from context which one the parent meant.

safety1st 1y ago

Well, the proverb doesn't necessarily attribute the death of the company to the lawyer. If a company is dying (aka winding down), you most likely do in fact want a lawyer in charge, whatever their job title may be. For instance why would you put a scientist or engineer in charge of negotiating your acquisition? It's a great proverb and in particular the "accountants in charge to extract maximum value after maturity, lawyers in charge at the end to wind it down or sell it off" part is accurate of many businesses in general. No company gets to live in the startup and growth stages forever. At a certain point shareholders decide to get everything they can out of their investment and move on.