4 ms·

That seems pretty opinionated, and by building a monoculture, persons with high openness to experience likely won't be drawn to your workplace, and you're also

by gyulai 1y ago

That seems pretty opinionated, and by building a monoculture, persons with high openness to experience likely won't be drawn to your workplace, and you're also leaving on the table the potential that comes from diversity (a loaded term these days, but substantively still a valid point). Depending on the kind of work you do and your customers, this may not matter to you, but in a lot of industries, you need the diversity to be able to properly represent and empathise with your customer base, who might be from a very different social cohort than your developers. And Linux desktops, which your customers almost certainly won't be using, may also make that difficult. People who spend a ton of time ricing their Linux desktops may be bad at setting priorities. If you expect them to continue their ricing, but not do it "on the clock", you're implicitly age-discriminating and discriminating against people with families and/or hobbies and/or "a life". Also keep in mind that your company is likely only one of a dozen or so workplaces that these people apply to in a given month, sometimes for many months before they land a job, and they probably haven't set up their computer specifically to impress you, but rather to fit the lowest common denominator among the requirements they face from all their application processes and educational activities, and some of that will require Windows.

dchftcs 1y ago
Yeah, seems I'd be doomed for doing interviews on my Windows laptop for the webcam and the compatibility with my bluetooth headset rather than my linux desktop. Tunnel vision and a lack of empathy are negative signals, so you could say I'd have dodged a bullet, but unfortunately in these situations I'd need the job more than the job would need me.
- kelnos 1y ago
  From my perspective, I think it shows poor judgment that you've chosen hardware where you can't get your webcam and bluetooth headset to work under Linux. Or you haven't bought a wired headset and a USB webcam that you've researched and know works properly under Linux. It sounds like the alternative you've chosen is to take interviews using an OS and development environment you're not comfortable in, which seems like a foolish choice to make. These days it's not difficult to buy hardware with Linux in mind, even on a budget. (And if you have two computers, I feel like budget is probably not really a problem for you.)
  - tpmoney 1y ago
    Even if you bought with Linux in mind, there’s no guarantee what works today works tomorrow. I have a Linux box that had working HDMI audio. A recent set of updates to the audio subsystems now means that when the box boots, the HDMI devices are muted by default. It seems like something changed in the order that things are initialized and the HDMI devices aren’t present when the audio system is initialized so none of your saved settings are re-applied. Every boot now requires manually fiddling with the audio settings to reset where audio should be going and unmute the devices. If my choice when going into an interview is the box that you need to buy specific hardware for and hope that no one re-configured the audio subsystems in the last update or the box that runs an os by a company known to put explicit code paths to recreate a prior edition bug that other software relies on… I might choose the latter too, even if it is windows. Of course I’d also probably choose the latter because there’s a non zero chance the interviewer is going to want to use some conferencing software or website that doesn’t work in Linux regardless of how well matched my hardware is.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - dchftcs 1y ago
    I simply don't use a headset or a webcam with my home Linux setup, because it's often been a hassle to deal with, and my work setup is separate. For screen-sharing type coding interviews, I have a perfectly functional remote SSH setup from my windows laptop, which took less time to setup than the last time I fiddled with a bad headset connection on Linux a long time ago. I find the "not using all of screen real estate" accusation to be strange as well, because usually screen-sharing is ergonomically limited to 1 screen, but people may usually work with two screens and not have developed habits to make 1 screen work.
jalk 1y ago
Some points in parent comment are absolutely valid IMO. Would you hire a carpenter who walks back and forth to his toolbox to pickup at single nail at a time and then use the hammer with both hands near the head. And when cutting a 4x4 beam will use 1-inch strokes with the handsaw (again with two hands).
- brenainn 1y ago
  I had my own reply, but using your analogy if I may: if I asked an apprentice carpenter to measure up and build some sort of structure in front of me with the tools provided, and they stumbled and made some awkward choices but the result was otherwise sound and they had other good qualities, yeah I'd consider hiring them. I think the scenario you describe though would be more equivalent to someone who flat out doesn't know how to even use a computer, which is a different case (I wouldn't hire that person).
  - jalk 1y ago
    I was thinking about basic tool use. I expect a junior engineer candidate to wield a computer way better than my mom. They are applying for a junior engineer position not and apprenticeship starting with close to zero training. I have no problem with candidates who stumble and make awkward choices during the interview, as juniors by definition lack experience and the interview process is a stressed situation.
    - danaris 1y ago
      I think we need to stop seeing "can program" as being equivalent to "is an expert computer user", because those are genuinely two different, if related and overlapping, skillsets. There is no particular reason that an expert C++ programmer also needs to know every keyboard shortcut or be an expert at the Linux command line, if those things are not actually relevant to the job you're trying to hire them for. Just because it's been common among millennial and older programmers (like most of us) to combine the two doesn't mean we should discriminate against programmers who don't fit that mold, as long as they're actually good programmers.
komali2 1y ago
> sometimes for many months before they land a job, and they probably haven't set up their computer specifically to impress you I wouldn't expect them to. I would expect them to have their computer set up to program. If it's not set up for programming, then, that's ok, they just won't fit in in an environment of people who really, really enjoy programming, and most likely aren't able to program at the level we expect. This theory worked out - about 10% of candidates were the kind that program regularly, for fun, or at least to build their portfolio, and of that 10% the one we ended up hiring turned out to be phenomenal. Like I said, the people who got furthest in the interview (solved the most problems) were the ones who had computers set up to program and were comfortable in their environment. Everyone got the same email, everyone knew they'd need to clone a repo and run node, and everyone who got the email had already passed the initial screening so I'd expect them to actually start reading our emails and taking this stage of the interview process seriously, considering it was the final stage (and the only stage involving actual programming). > you're also leaving on the table the potential that comes from diversity (a loaded term these days, but substantively still a valid point). Diversity comes in many forms. Someone not great at programming, or not that interested in it, I'm happy to select against. Do you have a reason I shouldn't filter these folks out? We're paying someone to code at the end of the day so I'm pretty confused at all this pushback to my bias towards "interest in computers." The other diversity markers I don't think were selected against - I have no idea what "high openness to experience" means but we had people with all sorts of different personalities and interests that we interviewed, all sorts of backgrounds, and sure all sorts of different gender expressions, national backgrounds, refugee status, race, so on. > People who spend a ton of time ricing their Linux desktops may be bad at setting priorities. If you expect them to continue their ricing, but not do it "on the clock", you're implicitly age-discriminating and discriminating against people with families and/or hobbies and/or "a life". Sure, and every hiring manager that puts people through a coding interview is implicitly engaging in ableism - someone with severe mental disabilities won't be able to pass the interview. Capitalism is ableist. I agree. They also had to have right to work - something I personally don't give a shit about but the State does. What am I supposed to do about it? Anyway interest in computing and "having a life" or hobbies or a family aren't mutually exclusive. At all the companies I've worked in, I've been surrounded by super nerds with families and other hobbies, alongside interest in computing. I've known a mom that went sailing every weekend and programmed circles around me, a married individual running a pokemon selling business and a lasercutting etsy store on the side all while having the healthiest marriage I've ever seen and personally aspire to, folks that brew beer or garden or make cheese, a hella greybeard that runs DND (and ran a campaign for the office alongside two others he was running)... all of these people I mentioned far better programmers than me, far more advanced knowledge of computers than me, and I don't do even close to that much outside of computer stuff. So, I don't know what to say other than I guess the last few companies where I worked and ran interviews at at just had really energetic people and wanted to hire more energetic people? That's something to criticize?

by gyulai 1y ago

dchftcs 1y ago

Yeah, seems I'd be doomed for doing interviews on my Windows laptop for the webcam and the compatibility with my bluetooth headset rather than my linux desktop. Tunnel vision and a lack of empathy are negative signals, so you could say I'd have dodged a bullet, but unfortunately in these situations I'd need the job more than the job would need me.

kelnos 1y ago
From my perspective, I think it shows poor judgment that you've chosen hardware where you can't get your webcam and bluetooth headset to work under Linux. Or you haven't bought a wired headset and a USB webcam that you've researched and know works properly under Linux. It sounds like the alternative you've chosen is to take interviews using an OS and development environment you're not comfortable in, which seems like a foolish choice to make. These days it's not difficult to buy hardware with Linux in mind, even on a budget. (And if you have two computers, I feel like budget is probably not really a problem for you.)
- tpmoney 1y ago
  Even if you bought with Linux in mind, there’s no guarantee what works today works tomorrow. I have a Linux box that had working HDMI audio. A recent set of updates to the audio subsystems now means that when the box boots, the HDMI devices are muted by default. It seems like something changed in the order that things are initialized and the HDMI devices aren’t present when the audio system is initialized so none of your saved settings are re-applied. Every boot now requires manually fiddling with the audio settings to reset where audio should be going and unmute the devices. If my choice when going into an interview is the box that you need to buy specific hardware for and hope that no one re-configured the audio subsystems in the last update or the box that runs an os by a company known to put explicit code paths to recreate a prior edition bug that other software relies on… I might choose the latter too, even if it is windows. Of course I’d also probably choose the latter because there’s a non zero chance the interviewer is going to want to use some conferencing software or website that doesn’t work in Linux regardless of how well matched my hardware is.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- dchftcs 1y ago
  I simply don't use a headset or a webcam with my home Linux setup, because it's often been a hassle to deal with, and my work setup is separate. For screen-sharing type coding interviews, I have a perfectly functional remote SSH setup from my windows laptop, which took less time to setup than the last time I fiddled with a bad headset connection on Linux a long time ago. I find the "not using all of screen real estate" accusation to be strange as well, because usually screen-sharing is ergonomically limited to 1 screen, but people may usually work with two screens and not have developed habits to make 1 screen work.

jalk 1y ago

Some points in parent comment are absolutely valid IMO. Would you hire a carpenter who walks back and forth to his toolbox to pickup at single nail at a time and then use the hammer with both hands near the head. And when cutting a 4x4 beam will use 1-inch strokes with the handsaw (again with two hands).

brenainn 1y ago
I had my own reply, but using your analogy if I may: if I asked an apprentice carpenter to measure up and build some sort of structure in front of me with the tools provided, and they stumbled and made some awkward choices but the result was otherwise sound and they had other good qualities, yeah I'd consider hiring them. I think the scenario you describe though would be more equivalent to someone who flat out doesn't know how to even use a computer, which is a different case (I wouldn't hire that person).
- jalk 1y ago
  I was thinking about basic tool use. I expect a junior engineer candidate to wield a computer way better than my mom. They are applying for a junior engineer position not and apprenticeship starting with close to zero training. I have no problem with candidates who stumble and make awkward choices during the interview, as juniors by definition lack experience and the interview process is a stressed situation.
  - danaris 1y ago
    I think we need to stop seeing "can program" as being equivalent to "is an expert computer user", because those are genuinely two different, if related and overlapping, skillsets. There is no particular reason that an expert C++ programmer also needs to know every keyboard shortcut or be an expert at the Linux command line, if those things are not actually relevant to the job you're trying to hire them for. Just because it's been common among millennial and older programmers (like most of us) to combine the two doesn't mean we should discriminate against programmers who don't fit that mold, as long as they're actually good programmers.

komali2 1y ago

> sometimes for many months before they land a job, and they probably haven't set up their computer specifically to impress you I wouldn't expect them to. I would expect them to have their computer set up to program. If it's not set up for programming, then, that's ok, they just won't fit in in an environment of people who really, really enjoy programming, and most likely aren't able to program at the level we expect. This theory worked out - about 10% of candidates were the kind that program regularly, for fun, or at least to build their portfolio, and of that 10% the one we ended up hiring turned out to be phenomenal. Like I said, the people who got furthest in the interview (solved the most problems) were the ones who had computers set up to program and were comfortable in their environment. Everyone got the same email, everyone knew they'd need to clone a repo and run node, and everyone who got the email had already passed the initial screening so I'd expect them to actually start reading our emails and taking this stage of the interview process seriously, considering it was the final stage (and the only stage involving actual programming). > you're also leaving on the table the potential that comes from diversity (a loaded term these days, but substantively still a valid point). Diversity comes in many forms. Someone not great at programming, or not that interested in it, I'm happy to select against. Do you have a reason I shouldn't filter these folks out? We're paying someone to code at the end of the day so I'm pretty confused at all this pushback to my bias towards "interest in computers." The other diversity markers I don't think were selected against - I have no idea what "high openness to experience" means but we had people with all sorts of different personalities and interests that we interviewed, all sorts of backgrounds, and sure all sorts of different gender expressions, national backgrounds, refugee status, race, so on. > People who spend a ton of time ricing their Linux desktops may be bad at setting priorities. If you expect them to continue their ricing, but not do it "on the clock", you're implicitly age-discriminating and discriminating against people with families and/or hobbies and/or "a life". Sure, and every hiring manager that puts people through a coding interview is implicitly engaging in ableism - someone with severe mental disabilities won't be able to pass the interview. Capitalism is ableist. I agree. They also had to have right to work - something I personally don't give a shit about but the State does. What am I supposed to do about it? Anyway interest in computing and "having a life" or hobbies or a family aren't mutually exclusive. At all the companies I've worked in, I've been surrounded by super nerds with families and other hobbies, alongside interest in computing. I've known a mom that went sailing every weekend and programmed circles around me, a married individual running a pokemon selling business and a lasercutting etsy store on the side all while having the healthiest marriage I've ever seen and personally aspire to, folks that brew beer or garden or make cheese, a hella greybeard that runs DND (and ran a campaign for the office alongside two others he was running)... all of these people I mentioned far better programmers than me, far more advanced knowledge of computers than me, and I don't do even close to that much outside of computer stuff. So, I don't know what to say other than I guess the last few companies where I worked and ran interviews at at just had really energetic people and wanted to hire more energetic people? That's something to criticize?