6 ms·

So I currently have; A National Insurance Card (needed to get a job), drivers license and passport, one of latter is also needed (in practice) to get a job. W

by matt-p 1y ago

So I currently have; A National Insurance Card (needed to get a job), drivers license and passport, one of latter is also needed (in practice) to get a job. Why would a brit card help us reduce the number of people working illegally? The only notable 'employers' of illegal workers in the UK are American tech firms Uber and deliveroo (doordash) because they allow driver substitution without verifying that the substitute is legit. That should be made illegal and then fine them into the ground for anyone who slips through. Brit card doesn't help and is a distraction.

reactordev 1y ago
It has nothing to do with cards and everything to do with data.
- notavalleyman 1y ago
  But the person you're replying to, just explained to you, how the government already have the relevant data. So it's clearly not about data, because the government already issue his NINO and passport Edit - I mean, just play it back in your head. The PM is probably watching small boat arrivals and reform polling numbers like a hawk. And here's his idea to fix both problems, and you're saying, actually no, the PM is just doing this to get data on where I go to work, even though they already have my PAYE details
  - Lio 1y ago
    I think it's 100% about the data. I beleive that Labour see this new ID system as the solution to all the age verification questions now required by the Online Safety Act. e.g. access to things like Reddit, BlueSky messaging, Spotify. With that in mind I think new data you're talking about will be enhanced tracking and monitoring on everyday online activity of UK citizens.
    - motbus3 1y ago
      I don't think it is only online. It is really a distopean future in US and UK right now. I honestly understand the problem with immigration, but at the same time, I think this way of approaching the problem is just to create "the enemy" from 1984. It seems that immigrants right now move something between 4B-10B a month in UK which is not a small number. Considering the costs elsewhere altogether, it seems quite small win for the risk.
      - astonex 1y ago
        >It is really a distopean future in US and UK right now. This ignores the fact that most of Europe and Asia already have national IDs
        reactordev 1y ago
        We all have national ID’s. It’s about having digital ID’s in a system they control.
        motbus3 1y ago
        The digital id is not the reason for that comment, or not solely. I mean having AI cameras, legalised racial profiling, attack on vessels in international waters without proof (likely killing innocent civilians too when it could be intercepted easily on the coast), we have politics talking about cultural incompatibility of their own people because different religion, we have a post truth media, etc
    - matt-p 1y ago
      I tend to agree, that or a big distraction/white elephant/dead cat.
  - motbus3 1y ago
    I guess the guy above is right. It is about the data and the right to use your face and track you everywhere. This can be easily paired with that UK bonkers camera ai thing. They might not need to know who is illegal, but if the camera does not know you, you might need to explain yourself and show an id. At the same time, I wonder how will they deal with people wearing burkas, masks, balaclavas etc
    - matt-p 1y ago
      Government already have my photo for passport and driver's license, I struggle to believe that there's people here working who don't have at least a provisional license or passport of any kind.
      - motbus3 1y ago
        Maybe they plan to ask Uber and deliveroo to authenticate the workers via facial recognition?
        matt-p 1y ago
        In order to drive a motorcycle or car you need a driving license which has photo ID? Ok maybe you deliver by push bike.. but if you arrived here legally you will have a passport? If you didn't you ergo don't have the right to work here?
        reactordev 1y ago
        Outsourced to companies that don’t share data, which is why the government is requiring you to submit more data. How hard is this? Eventually they’ll have your DNA, Fingerprints, photos, family trees, employment history, money, spending habits, vices, travel locations, conversations, and your comings and goings via license plate readers. Welcome to your future.
        motbus3 1y ago
        It is happening already. Some insurance companies in my country wants to demand DNA testing and to withold that information for indeterminate time and to be able to sell that info. Thankfully, although not even close to EU data protection there is some and this was deemed irregular for now. Attention for the word "irregular". They will take maybe few more years to turn it onto regular. It is not illegal which is bonkers.
- paxys 1y ago
  What new data does another ID card give the government?
astonex 1y ago
A Brit can pass a RTW check without a drivers license or a passport - a paper birth certificate is also acceptable (and paper can be lost, damaged, forged), as neither a drivers license or a passport a mandatory. Getting those can be expensive for some people while this ID is free. A NI number is not ID, it's a reporting number. Lastly, a national ID is a tried and tested scheme in many, many countries and brings a lot of positives. The only "negatives" are slippery slope make-believe scenarios not based in reality. https://www.gov.uk/prove-right-to-work https://www.gov.uk/prove-right-to-work
- matt-p 1y ago
  I appreciate that, I decided to exclude it for simplicity because obviously not everyone working here was born here :) I don't really understand why I need a Fourth (or Fifth)! National ID? I don't really get the point on reporting number, true, but it's also a UID linked to a passport or birth certificate.
  - astonex 1y ago
    You don't currently have any National ID. You have forms of ID, which others might not have, but none are national mandatory ID that every citizen and resident has. As such many benefits in streamlining and simplifying processes cannot be achieved when everyone has a UID as such. Imagine making a system where you used various ID formats, and you couldn't guarantee anyone had one in particular, and some people had none. Your NI card literally says it's not identification. A NI number is not linked to a passport as it's not mandatory to have a passport, so that would not work for many people. It is just a number used for tax accounting.
    - matt-p 1y ago
      Ok then 'Government issued [photo] ID' so what if it's not a 'national ID'? They have all the data they need to tackle this. You can't get a NI number without proving who you are, if the government don't trust NI numbers (which they are minting?) then they could simply re-issue them? That would be far far easier than a new national ID.
foldr 1y ago
>A National Insurance Card (needed to get a job) You don't need the card itself in order to get a job, just the number. In this respect it's rather like an American social security card. (I know some US employers will ask to see the card, but that's not a legal requirement: https://www.ssa.gov/employer/SSNcard.htm https://www.ssa.gov/employer/SSNcard.htm)
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
t14000 1y ago
Because your NI card has no photo?

by matt-p 1y ago

reactordev 1y ago

It has nothing to do with cards and everything to do with data.

notavalleyman 1y ago
But the person you're replying to, just explained to you, how the government already have the relevant data. So it's clearly not about data, because the government already issue his NINO and passport Edit - I mean, just play it back in your head. The PM is probably watching small boat arrivals and reform polling numbers like a hawk. And here's his idea to fix both problems, and you're saying, actually no, the PM is just doing this to get data on where I go to work, even though they already have my PAYE details
- Lio 1y ago
  I think it's 100% about the data. I beleive that Labour see this new ID system as the solution to all the age verification questions now required by the Online Safety Act. e.g. access to things like Reddit, BlueSky messaging, Spotify. With that in mind I think new data you're talking about will be enhanced tracking and monitoring on everyday online activity of UK citizens.
  - motbus3 1y ago
    I don't think it is only online. It is really a distopean future in US and UK right now. I honestly understand the problem with immigration, but at the same time, I think this way of approaching the problem is just to create "the enemy" from 1984. It seems that immigrants right now move something between 4B-10B a month in UK which is not a small number. Considering the costs elsewhere altogether, it seems quite small win for the risk.
    - astonex 1y ago
      >It is really a distopean future in US and UK right now. This ignores the fact that most of Europe and Asia already have national IDs
      - reactordev 1y ago
        We all have national ID’s. It’s about having digital ID’s in a system they control.
      - motbus3 1y ago
        The digital id is not the reason for that comment, or not solely. I mean having AI cameras, legalised racial profiling, attack on vessels in international waters without proof (likely killing innocent civilians too when it could be intercepted easily on the coast), we have politics talking about cultural incompatibility of their own people because different religion, we have a post truth media, etc
  - matt-p 1y ago
    I tend to agree, that or a big distraction/white elephant/dead cat.
- motbus3 1y ago
  I guess the guy above is right. It is about the data and the right to use your face and track you everywhere. This can be easily paired with that UK bonkers camera ai thing. They might not need to know who is illegal, but if the camera does not know you, you might need to explain yourself and show an id. At the same time, I wonder how will they deal with people wearing burkas, masks, balaclavas etc
  - matt-p 1y ago
    Government already have my photo for passport and driver's license, I struggle to believe that there's people here working who don't have at least a provisional license or passport of any kind.
    - motbus3 1y ago
      Maybe they plan to ask Uber and deliveroo to authenticate the workers via facial recognition?
      - matt-p 1y ago
        In order to drive a motorcycle or car you need a driving license which has photo ID? Ok maybe you deliver by push bike.. but if you arrived here legally you will have a passport? If you didn't you ergo don't have the right to work here?
        reactordev 1y ago
        Outsourced to companies that don’t share data, which is why the government is requiring you to submit more data. How hard is this? Eventually they’ll have your DNA, Fingerprints, photos, family trees, employment history, money, spending habits, vices, travel locations, conversations, and your comings and goings via license plate readers. Welcome to your future.
        motbus3 1y ago
        It is happening already. Some insurance companies in my country wants to demand DNA testing and to withold that information for indeterminate time and to be able to sell that info. Thankfully, although not even close to EU data protection there is some and this was deemed irregular for now. Attention for the word "irregular". They will take maybe few more years to turn it onto regular. It is not illegal which is bonkers.
paxys 1y ago
What new data does another ID card give the government?

astonex 1y ago

A Brit can pass a RTW check without a drivers license or a passport - a paper birth certificate is also acceptable (and paper can be lost, damaged, forged), as neither a drivers license or a passport a mandatory. Getting those can be expensive for some people while this ID is free. A NI number is not ID, it's a reporting number. Lastly, a national ID is a tried and tested scheme in many, many countries and brings a lot of positives. The only "negatives" are slippery slope make-believe scenarios not based in reality. https://www.gov.uk/prove-right-to-work https://www.gov.uk/prove-right-to-work

matt-p 1y ago
I appreciate that, I decided to exclude it for simplicity because obviously not everyone working here was born here :) I don't really understand why I need a Fourth (or Fifth)! National ID? I don't really get the point on reporting number, true, but it's also a UID linked to a passport or birth certificate.
- astonex 1y ago
  You don't currently have any National ID. You have forms of ID, which others might not have, but none are national mandatory ID that every citizen and resident has. As such many benefits in streamlining and simplifying processes cannot be achieved when everyone has a UID as such. Imagine making a system where you used various ID formats, and you couldn't guarantee anyone had one in particular, and some people had none. Your NI card literally says it's not identification. A NI number is not linked to a passport as it's not mandatory to have a passport, so that would not work for many people. It is just a number used for tax accounting.
  - matt-p 1y ago
    Ok then 'Government issued [photo] ID' so what if it's not a 'national ID'? They have all the data they need to tackle this. You can't get a NI number without proving who you are, if the government don't trust NI numbers (which they are minting?) then they could simply re-issue them? That would be far far easier than a new national ID.

foldr 1y ago

>A National Insurance Card (needed to get a job) You don't need the card itself in order to get a job, just the number. In this respect it's rather like an American social security card. (I know some US employers will ask to see the card, but that's not a legal requirement: https://www.ssa.gov/employer/SSNcard.htm https://www.ssa.gov/employer/SSNcard.htm)

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

t14000 1y ago

Because your NI card has no photo?