5 ms·

Apple pushes EU to repeal tech rules over feature delays, app vulnerabilities

39 points by doener 1y ago

ncruces 1y ago
They couldn't even resist adding a "just think of the children" in their argument.
- Weryj 1y ago
  Or blaming it for affecting their intuitive design, right after the iOS 26 regression.
nialse 1y ago
They want the EU to solve an issue they caused themselves by abstaining from complying with the law? How convenient. If there ever was a valid reason to designate Apple a gatekeeper, this kind of behavior is it.
- Veliladon 1y ago
  It's a double edged sword. The problem is that there's a lot of bad actors out there. You know why Apple doesn't let companies get access to the raw camera data on the Vision? Because Meta is salivating at getting inside people's homes and being able to get even more data. Some of us are able to navigate the minefield through a lot of hard won experience acquired over years if not decades. I lived through the J2ME era with compromised JARs, premium rate scams, carriers monopolizing things, and all the bullshit that came along with it. The App Store, for all its MANY faults basically solved all that for normal people in one fell swoop. A lot of people aren't going to realize what they might be giving up until it's too late. Apple is at least trying to mitigate this by keeping as much processing as possible on device and trying to secure those devices as best they can. For a lot of people who aren't technically inclined this is a godsend. DMA somewhat counteracts that because it forces Apple to give up some of the control that is keeping these bad actors at bay.
  - develatio 1y ago
    How would Meta gain access to my home if i don’t install Meta’s apps on my Vision?
    - aranelsurion 1y ago
      1. Install Meta app on your Vision 2. Accept every scary permission prompt Apple throws at you 3. ??? 4. Meta now has your home scanned. This is how I see Apple’s argument. I wonder why they let the Browser exist then. It opens you up to so many more dangers, they should’ve let you only visit “apple.com” and maybe a few trusted partners.
      - noiseinvacuum 1y ago
        if they could, they would put enormous restrictions on the browser as well. Chrome's popularity on iOS and MacOS is stopping them.
  - nialse 1y ago
    It's not a double edged sword. That is pure nonsense. Apple only needs to let OTHERS provide the protection service and we're done. Also, it is not the essence of the DMA.
  - microtonal 1y ago
    The problem is also that Apple uses security (which I agree is a good feature of Apple platforms) to give itself an exceptional position, making it hard to compete. For instance, it is nearly impossible to make a smartwatch with deep integration with iOS. This hugely benefits Apple’s own Apple Watch. With Google also quickly restricting Android, we have to ask if this is the future we want, where only Apple, Google and Samsung products work well with their devices.
    - antipaul 1y ago
      What's the difference between making a great integrated experience and making it hard to compete?
Muromec 1y ago
Can we skip to acceptance stage already?
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
bitpush 1y ago
I thought HN was super happy with DMA when it was first announced. People were all convinced that EU sticking it to Facebook/Meta was fun to watch. I wonder now that Apple is affected, will people reconsider their position?
- ginko 1y ago
  For me Apple was always the number one target of the DMA. If anything I'm annoyed the EU isn't more aggressive with them. They should be broken up.
  - microtonal 1y ago
    I am not sure if they should be broken up. It's more that once you are a gatekeeper (which Google and Apple are in mobile), then you get regulated like one. Similar to how in many European countries insurance companies, electricity companies, public transport companies, etc. are regulated because they are .*polies. You can do business, make a profit, but citizens and other companies should be protected against the enormous power you wield.
- arlcode 1y ago
  I expected and predicted exactly the behavior that Apple is showing right now. Currently it's impossible to differentiate real issues of the DMA from Apple being in active resistance. They themselves are not a trustworthy source on this because it endangers their power and income. Personally I still support the act and urge the EU to stay it's course. Once Apple returns to sanity and compliance we can talk about reasonable improvements where required. Right now they apparently still think they can bully themselves out of any obligation and this must not succeed. Users will live without mirroring and AI translation for a little bit.
- microtonal 1y ago
  Wait what? We always knew Apple would be affected, though I think the holding back of features is also partially out of spite and to weaponize users against the EU. I am super happy with the DMA (and DSA) and have been an Apple user since 2007. Monopolies, duopolies, and oligopolies should be regulated by law. The law is above Apple. Apple should deal with it and stop whining like a spoiled child. For me the most egregious thing is when China asks to jump, Apple asks how high. When a democracies ask, they fight it tooth and nail and go full malicious compliance. tl;dr: yes, it's a shame we are missing out on some features, but protecting the rules established by democracies is more important than a bunch of features.
lapcat 1y ago
Here's Apple's PR, which was oddly dropped at 3 AM UTC when most Europeans were asleep: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2025/09/the-digital-markets-acts-impacts-on-eu-users/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2025/09/the-digital-markets-a... See also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45368848 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45368848 (3 comments)
Woodi 1y ago
"DMA something something markets"... What a dead brains in Apple... DMA is not for Apple selling sealed things but for others using it, including "internals". When they catch up that no monopoly is better even for them ? And security. And markets. And childrens.
concinds 1y ago
I read the EU's DMA documents (and their responses to Apple) and what stuck out was that every time Apple brought up "privacy concerns" for any interoperability proposal, the EU response was basically: "that's invalid, protecting privacy is up to the law, not Apple". Apple has their own greedy reasons for locking down their platforms, but the EU hasn't curbstomped Facebook and never will. So there's no question the median users's privacy will be worse, because apps will get deep OS access gated by permission prompts that they'll click through without reading (due to permission fatigue). The EU is captured by corporate interests, you're naive if you think "Apple loses we win". It'll be "Apple loses, other big corps win" as always. Giving Meta/others access to most people's notifications (revealing everything about you), Wi-Fi networks (locations), iPhone Mirroring (unlocking and browsing an iPhone remotely), Continuity Camera (turning on your camera remotely), App Intents (basically making their apps an OS-within-the-OS). That's all stuff Meta has already requested from Apple under the DMA's interoperability requests procedure. Stuff Apple only does on-device, others will be able to grab and send to the cloud with little transparency to most people who don't understand this stuff.
- StopDisinfo910 1y ago
  > the EU hasn't curbstomped Facebook and never will The EU fined Meta 200 millions euros for failure to respect the DMA regarding their data collection policy. That's on top of the 1.2 billion euros fine Meta received in May for failure to respect GDPR. That certainly looks like curbstomping to me.
  - noiseinvacuum 1y ago
    Apple is always the victim and get singled out in the minds of its fans.
  - concinds 1y ago
    True, I forgot about that.
fredski42 1y ago
Having privacy should be a user choice. I am firmly in the Apple ecosystem and in the EU. Apple could engineer it such that interoperability means giving up privacy. User can choose. Apple could show in the App Store/settings exactly which data is leaked. Apple is using privacy as a tactic.
akmarinov 1y ago
Just do full and unconditional sideload and we'll be good. 90% of the users won't ever use it anyway.
- noiseinvacuum 1y ago
  They are scared that Meta and other popular apps might just abandon the AppStore altogether or offer significant advantage for side loaders. This is the problem with having too tight of a control, Apple is always living in fear of losing control.
NotPractical 1y ago
See also: Apple says it may stop shipping to the EU: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45372515 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45372515

39 points by doener 1y ago

ncruces 1y ago

They couldn't even resist adding a "just think of the children" in their argument.

Weryj 1y ago
Or blaming it for affecting their intuitive design, right after the iOS 26 regression.

nialse 1y ago

They want the EU to solve an issue they caused themselves by abstaining from complying with the law? How convenient. If there ever was a valid reason to designate Apple a gatekeeper, this kind of behavior is it.

Veliladon 1y ago
It's a double edged sword. The problem is that there's a lot of bad actors out there. You know why Apple doesn't let companies get access to the raw camera data on the Vision? Because Meta is salivating at getting inside people's homes and being able to get even more data. Some of us are able to navigate the minefield through a lot of hard won experience acquired over years if not decades. I lived through the J2ME era with compromised JARs, premium rate scams, carriers monopolizing things, and all the bullshit that came along with it. The App Store, for all its MANY faults basically solved all that for normal people in one fell swoop. A lot of people aren't going to realize what they might be giving up until it's too late. Apple is at least trying to mitigate this by keeping as much processing as possible on device and trying to secure those devices as best they can. For a lot of people who aren't technically inclined this is a godsend. DMA somewhat counteracts that because it forces Apple to give up some of the control that is keeping these bad actors at bay.
- develatio 1y ago
  How would Meta gain access to my home if i don’t install Meta’s apps on my Vision?
  - aranelsurion 1y ago
    1. Install Meta app on your Vision 2. Accept every scary permission prompt Apple throws at you 3. ??? 4. Meta now has your home scanned. This is how I see Apple’s argument. I wonder why they let the Browser exist then. It opens you up to so many more dangers, they should’ve let you only visit “apple.com” and maybe a few trusted partners.
    - noiseinvacuum 1y ago
      if they could, they would put enormous restrictions on the browser as well. Chrome's popularity on iOS and MacOS is stopping them.
- nialse 1y ago
  It's not a double edged sword. That is pure nonsense. Apple only needs to let OTHERS provide the protection service and we're done. Also, it is not the essence of the DMA.
- microtonal 1y ago
  The problem is also that Apple uses security (which I agree is a good feature of Apple platforms) to give itself an exceptional position, making it hard to compete. For instance, it is nearly impossible to make a smartwatch with deep integration with iOS. This hugely benefits Apple’s own Apple Watch. With Google also quickly restricting Android, we have to ask if this is the future we want, where only Apple, Google and Samsung products work well with their devices.
  - antipaul 1y ago
    What's the difference between making a great integrated experience and making it hard to compete?

Muromec 1y ago

Can we skip to acceptance stage already?

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

bitpush 1y ago

I thought HN was super happy with DMA when it was first announced. People were all convinced that EU sticking it to Facebook/Meta was fun to watch. I wonder now that Apple is affected, will people reconsider their position?

ginko 1y ago
For me Apple was always the number one target of the DMA. If anything I'm annoyed the EU isn't more aggressive with them. They should be broken up.
- microtonal 1y ago
  I am not sure if they should be broken up. It's more that once you are a gatekeeper (which Google and Apple are in mobile), then you get regulated like one. Similar to how in many European countries insurance companies, electricity companies, public transport companies, etc. are regulated because they are .*polies. You can do business, make a profit, but citizens and other companies should be protected against the enormous power you wield.
arlcode 1y ago
I expected and predicted exactly the behavior that Apple is showing right now. Currently it's impossible to differentiate real issues of the DMA from Apple being in active resistance. They themselves are not a trustworthy source on this because it endangers their power and income. Personally I still support the act and urge the EU to stay it's course. Once Apple returns to sanity and compliance we can talk about reasonable improvements where required. Right now they apparently still think they can bully themselves out of any obligation and this must not succeed. Users will live without mirroring and AI translation for a little bit.
microtonal 1y ago
Wait what? We always knew Apple would be affected, though I think the holding back of features is also partially out of spite and to weaponize users against the EU. I am super happy with the DMA (and DSA) and have been an Apple user since 2007. Monopolies, duopolies, and oligopolies should be regulated by law. The law is above Apple. Apple should deal with it and stop whining like a spoiled child. For me the most egregious thing is when China asks to jump, Apple asks how high. When a democracies ask, they fight it tooth and nail and go full malicious compliance. tl;dr: yes, it's a shame we are missing out on some features, but protecting the rules established by democracies is more important than a bunch of features.

lapcat 1y ago

Here's Apple's PR, which was oddly dropped at 3 AM UTC when most Europeans were asleep: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2025/09/the-digital-markets-acts-impacts-on-eu-users/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2025/09/the-digital-markets-a... See also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45368848 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45368848 (3 comments)

Woodi 1y ago

"DMA something something markets"... What a dead brains in Apple... DMA is not for Apple selling sealed things but for others using it, including "internals". When they catch up that no monopoly is better even for them ? And security. And markets. And childrens.

concinds 1y ago

I read the EU's DMA documents (and their responses to Apple) and what stuck out was that every time Apple brought up "privacy concerns" for any interoperability proposal, the EU response was basically: "that's invalid, protecting privacy is up to the law, not Apple". Apple has their own greedy reasons for locking down their platforms, but the EU hasn't curbstomped Facebook and never will. So there's no question the median users's privacy will be worse, because apps will get deep OS access gated by permission prompts that they'll click through without reading (due to permission fatigue). The EU is captured by corporate interests, you're naive if you think "Apple loses we win". It'll be "Apple loses, other big corps win" as always. Giving Meta/others access to most people's notifications (revealing everything about you), Wi-Fi networks (locations), iPhone Mirroring (unlocking and browsing an iPhone remotely), Continuity Camera (turning on your camera remotely), App Intents (basically making their apps an OS-within-the-OS). That's all stuff Meta has already requested from Apple under the DMA's interoperability requests procedure. Stuff Apple only does on-device, others will be able to grab and send to the cloud with little transparency to most people who don't understand this stuff.

StopDisinfo910 1y ago
> the EU hasn't curbstomped Facebook and never will The EU fined Meta 200 millions euros for failure to respect the DMA regarding their data collection policy. That's on top of the 1.2 billion euros fine Meta received in May for failure to respect GDPR. That certainly looks like curbstomping to me.
- noiseinvacuum 1y ago
  Apple is always the victim and get singled out in the minds of its fans.
- concinds 1y ago
  True, I forgot about that.

fredski42 1y ago

Having privacy should be a user choice. I am firmly in the Apple ecosystem and in the EU. Apple could engineer it such that interoperability means giving up privacy. User can choose. Apple could show in the App Store/settings exactly which data is leaked. Apple is using privacy as a tactic.

akmarinov 1y ago

Just do full and unconditional sideload and we'll be good. 90% of the users won't ever use it anyway.

noiseinvacuum 1y ago
They are scared that Meta and other popular apps might just abandon the AppStore altogether or offer significant advantage for side loaders. This is the problem with having too tight of a control, Apple is always living in fear of losing control.

NotPractical 1y ago

See also: Apple says it may stop shipping to the EU: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45372515 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45372515