3 ms·

I don't mean this to doubt you, it is a sincere question. Do you have any examples of that happening? It sounds very believable, but it would be great to have a

by anang 1y ago

I don't mean this to doubt you, it is a sincere question. Do you have any examples of that happening? It sounds very believable, but it would be great to have actual sources for future reference.

rdsubhas 1y ago
QUIC. HTTP/3. WebP. And more in this comment thread.
- Calavar 1y ago
  Yep, QUIC is what I was thinking about when I wrote my additional comment, but there are many examples, as others have pointed out.
dijit 1y ago
push notifications, webgpu and webusb are examples of chrome being a reference implementation and using things for their services while simultaneously pushing the standard. Push for mail, webgpu for maps (iirc) and I believe WebUSB is used for Android flash/debug.
- mistercow 1y ago
  WebGPU is the only one of those I’ve really followed, but hasn’t that had a huge amount of input and changes due to other voices in the working group? That seems to contradict the simplistic picture painted above of Google just dictating standards to the industry.
  - dijit 1y ago
    Would webgpu exist at all if Chrome hadn’t just pushed through with an implementation? Who knows. Not us, we’ll never know.
    - pjmlp 1y ago
      To add insult to injury, we probably would have gotten WebGL 2.0 Compute, which was initially done by Intel, if Chrome had not refused to ship it on Chrome, arguing that WebGPU was right around the corner, and it would take too much space, this was about 5 years ago. And to those rushing out to point out the excuse part about OpenGL on Mac not having support for compute, WebGL already back then wasn't backed up by OpenGL on all platforms, see Windows (DirectX), PlayStation (LibGNM). Also eventually Safari also moved their WebGL implementation from OpenGL to Metal, and Chrome did as well, replace their WebGL to run on top of Metal on Mac. So not really that much of a problem regarding the state of OpenGL on Mac as "required" implemenatation layer for WebGL.
- mendyberger 1y ago
  Not true about webgpu, but true about some APIs in Google's project-fugu
  - kinlan 1y ago
    We had very few products that use the fugu apis., and I don't believe we were the first to ship them either in a production website. If you're looking at fugu in particular (especially in the latter stages) we had external developers or businesses wanting the features. Note: there are some apis that a Google customer wanted to use first.
    - mendyberger 1y ago
      But the other browsers objected yet Chrome still shipped them
krageon 1y ago
It happens every single time. This isn't some well kept industry secret
troupo 1y ago
Anytime you see someone on HN lamenting that Safari is the new IE because it doesn't implement something, 99.9% of the time it's Chrome-only non-standards. - All of hardware standards. WebHID's timeline is especially egregious https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/459#issuecomment-886271967 https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/459#is... - Most of standards advertised on web.dev as "new exciting opportunities you can try now". E.g. WebTransport https://developer.chrome.com/docs/capabilities/web-apis/webtransport https://developer.chrome.com/docs/capabilities/web-apis/webt.... The status of that spec is "scribbled on a napkin", but somehow already released in Chrome. - Other "standards" and "specs" here and there like web share target https://w3c.github.io/web-share-target/ https://w3c.github.io/web-share-target/ Can I Use had to create a special UNOFF tag for all the web APIs that Chrome (mostly Chrome) ships. If you go to MDN and look at all APIs marked as "experimental", you'll find that most of them are already shipped in Chrome: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API

by anang 1y ago

I don't mean this to doubt you, it is a sincere question. Do you have any examples of that happening? It sounds very believable, but it would be great to have actual sources for future reference.

rdsubhas 1y ago

QUIC. HTTP/3. WebP. And more in this comment thread.

Calavar 1y ago
Yep, QUIC is what I was thinking about when I wrote my additional comment, but there are many examples, as others have pointed out.

dijit 1y ago

push notifications, webgpu and webusb are examples of chrome being a reference implementation and using things for their services while simultaneously pushing the standard. Push for mail, webgpu for maps (iirc) and I believe WebUSB is used for Android flash/debug.

mistercow 1y ago
WebGPU is the only one of those I’ve really followed, but hasn’t that had a huge amount of input and changes due to other voices in the working group? That seems to contradict the simplistic picture painted above of Google just dictating standards to the industry.
- dijit 1y ago
  Would webgpu exist at all if Chrome hadn’t just pushed through with an implementation? Who knows. Not us, we’ll never know.
  - pjmlp 1y ago
    To add insult to injury, we probably would have gotten WebGL 2.0 Compute, which was initially done by Intel, if Chrome had not refused to ship it on Chrome, arguing that WebGPU was right around the corner, and it would take too much space, this was about 5 years ago. And to those rushing out to point out the excuse part about OpenGL on Mac not having support for compute, WebGL already back then wasn't backed up by OpenGL on all platforms, see Windows (DirectX), PlayStation (LibGNM). Also eventually Safari also moved their WebGL implementation from OpenGL to Metal, and Chrome did as well, replace their WebGL to run on top of Metal on Mac. So not really that much of a problem regarding the state of OpenGL on Mac as "required" implemenatation layer for WebGL.
mendyberger 1y ago
Not true about webgpu, but true about some APIs in Google's project-fugu
- kinlan 1y ago
  We had very few products that use the fugu apis., and I don't believe we were the first to ship them either in a production website. If you're looking at fugu in particular (especially in the latter stages) we had external developers or businesses wanting the features. Note: there are some apis that a Google customer wanted to use first.
  - mendyberger 1y ago
    But the other browsers objected yet Chrome still shipped them

krageon 1y ago

It happens every single time. This isn't some well kept industry secret

troupo 1y ago

Anytime you see someone on HN lamenting that Safari is the new IE because it doesn't implement something, 99.9% of the time it's Chrome-only non-standards. - All of hardware standards. WebHID's timeline is especially egregious https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/459#issuecomment-886271967 https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/459#is... - Most of standards advertised on web.dev as "new exciting opportunities you can try now". E.g. WebTransport https://developer.chrome.com/docs/capabilities/web-apis/webtransport https://developer.chrome.com/docs/capabilities/web-apis/webt.... The status of that spec is "scribbled on a napkin", but somehow already released in Chrome. - Other "standards" and "specs" here and there like web share target https://w3c.github.io/web-share-target/ https://w3c.github.io/web-share-target/ Can I Use had to create a special UNOFF tag for all the web APIs that Chrome (mostly Chrome) ships. If you go to MDN and look at all APIs marked as "experimental", you'll find that most of them are already shipped in Chrome: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API