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Wow, absolutely brilliant. I can't believe this article popped up on HN's front page tonight. I just got back from looking at engagement rings with my girlfrien

Wow, absolutely brilliant. I can't believe this article popped up on HN's front page tonight. I just got back from looking at engagement rings with my girlfriend. I've known about this monopoly for a while, and so has she. Heck, one of the first movies we watched together when we first started dating 7 years ago was Blood Diamond. Here's the conversation we had while in the jewellery store tonight. Me: "Sweety, I really don't want to buy you a diamond. I really would rather buy you something that at least has some more value associated with it, like a sapphire." Her: "Well, I've always pictured a diamond ring. That's what everyone gets." Me: "Well, what do you like about the diamond that the sapphire doesn't give you?" Her: "I like the sparkle." Me: "Ok, that's fair. What about moissanite? (Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moissanite http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moissanite) It's supposedly even more sparkly and brilliant than diamonds." Her: "What's it made of?" Me: "You know how diamond is just carbon? Moissanite is silicon and carbon in the same type of crystal structure." Her: "And it's natural?" Me: "Well, it can occur naturally, but it's extremely rare. So the ones you buy are usually created in a lab, but are more brilliant than a diamond, but actually cost less. I can apparently get a 1.5 carat stone for $800." Her: (annoyed) "I don't want something fake!" Me: "Oh, so it's not about the sparkle then?" I swear, De Beers has probably pulled off the greatest marketing stunt in the history of humanity. The fact that it's so ingrained in our minds, to the point where a smart, educated, and informed person like my girlfriend still wants a diamond even after knowing all the issues with them, is fascinating. Honestly, as a community of people in the startup ecosystem, we could stand to learn a thing or two here.

humbledrone 14y ago
If you end up going with a diamond, you might consider a company like Brilliant Earth [1], which offers "conflict free" diamonds (and other gems), and recycled precious metals. Their gems come from mines that employ adults at reasonable wages. I'm not associated with the company, but they made my fiance's engagement ring and we're very happy with it. [1] http://www.brilliantearth.com/conflict-free-diamonds/ http://www.brilliantearth.com/conflict-free-diamonds/
- HorizonXP 14y ago
  Thank you for the link! I've been trying to find a decent source for conflict-free diamonds, and this seems to fit the bill. I hope I can convince my girlfriend to go with an alternative, but this is likely a battle that I will lose. The issue centres around the social stigma of not having a diamond ring. Friends and family will ask what the stone is, and need to be educated. And no matter what you tell them, the perception will be that I was too cheap to buy her a real engagement ring. Nevermind the fact that I'm not actually saving any money, I'm just spending it somewhat more wisely. It's actually a little bit of a stressful situation for me. I'm in the Royal Canadian Mint's MintChip Challenge, and I'm hoping to win some gold from the competition, so I can melt it down and make an engagement ring for her from that. In my eyes, that has more meaning behind it. Moreover, she's going on a trip with her sister to Prague & Rome in a month, a few days before our 7 year anniversary. Since she knows a proposal is coming, I was hoping to surprise her by showing up in Rome and proposing to her there. May not be the wisest way to spend my money, especially when I'm not exactly swimming in cash right now, but I felt it would be worth it for the memory and moment. To me, that's a better use for my money than some artificially-valued diamond. Seems like I'll have to scrap that plan and save more money for the ring she wants.
  - jquery 14y ago
    Went through the same thing with my wife. In the end I caved and just bought the best damn diamond I could find after 3 months of searching. Easier to explain why you bought an alternative stone than why you bought a shitty diamond.
  - YokoZar 14y ago
    You could do the economist thing and try to phrase it in terms of opportunity cost. That is, by insisting on a diamond, she's giving up a moissanite stone that's 5 times the size; by insisting on an uncultured diamond she's giving up a diamond that's twice the size (and more pure to boot).
    - Cass 14y ago
      Speaking as a girl without even the least bit of interest in diamonds, "If you give up the thing you want, you can get a thing you don't want that's TWICE AS BIG" is just in no way a selling point, especially as long as her association with those stones is that they're fakes. You can try to make the moissanite seem cooler, or the lab diamond more ethical, but women are already aware that if you buy "fake" jewelry, you can get bigger stones, and generally that's just seen as trashy.
clobber 14y ago
Congrats on presenting a diamond-alternative to her. The diamond trade is absolutely disgusting and unfortunately many people seem to equate "love" with a shiny rock. If it came down to it, I would have to reevaluate marrying someone that refused to believe otherwise.
- hkmurakami 14y ago
  I started thinking about this issue a few days ago and have yet to come up with a strategy for convincing a (future) partner on the follies of purchasing a diamond. Is there any recourse at all to the epic marketing job De Beers has masterminded?
  - jquery 14y ago
    Good luck. It's akin to convincing your SO that you don't want to celebrate Christmas because it's a product of retail marketing.
    - hkmurakami 14y ago
      Oh, did I mention that our family hasn't bought one another gifts on Christmas ever sine I was about 12 years old? :) Maybe there is hope after all! (not)
      - heretohelp 14y ago
        Well. We can't all be generalists.
  - katabatic 14y ago
    How about sending them this article?
  - icelancer 14y ago
    Find someone who can think logically. Not easy, of course...
  - dllthomas 14y ago
dllthomas 14y ago
> "I don't want something fake!" Symbolizing the triumph of technology and human progress is not really the ideal for an engagement ring, but it's a lot better than symbolizing blood and oppression (depending, I suppose, on your views on marriage, but given that you were looking at engagement rings I expect yours are favorable...) My wife has a lab-grown emerald from GreenKarat (http://greenkarat.com http://greenkarat.com) on her finger, and she's very happy with it. She was even more opposed to diamonds than I was, going in (I think they look nice, just not worth the money or ethics, she doesn't like the look either). But yeah, for the record, "That's what everyone gets" is off by at least one! If her heart is really set on the diamond, the best option is a ring in your family or hers, if one exists. Failing that, vintage rings you can find at estate sales and the like may be a more ethical approach than buying new diamonds. They'll have a bloody history but at least you're not adding to demand that will spur new bloodshed. "Ethical" diamonds sold presently in jewelry stores, per my understanding, are better than they were 10 years ago, but the Kimberley Process still has issues.
deleted 14y ago
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boyter 14y ago
I actually had this argument as well recently. She however did agree with me and is now sporting a Sapphire engagement ring. It does have some diamonds on it but the main stone in Sapphire. She wanted it because she didn't want what everyone else had. Not sure how old you are, but I have also noticed this trend in Gen Y (friends like myself) starting to get colored gemstones. Of course this is totally anecdotal but maybe De Beers stranglehold is finally going away? Congratulations as well by the way.
- evincarofautumn 14y ago
  I haven’t noticed such a trend, but it would be welcome. Never liked the look of diamonds, myself, so I always figured if I got engaged I’d just look for the gemstone that’s right for my partner—their look, their personality.
  - boyter 14y ago
    As I said purely anecdotal, but it does seem to be a trend in my circle of friends. BTW you will have little to no say in the process. Just go with whatever she requests it will make your life easier.
  - raleec 14y ago
    The fact that you (and probably she) are presuming that a stone is required in the first place means that DeBeers has won the larger victory.
    - evincarofautumn 14y ago
      I don’t; jewelry is just nice.
- brazzy 14y ago
  Sapphires are actually even more bizarre. They can be produced artifically, at perfect quality and any size, relatively cheaply. The only way to distinguish natural ones is by their impurities. The artificial ones are literally a superior product in every way, yet are considered "fake" and thus disgraceful to wear.
philwelch 14y ago
My fiancee and I did tattoos instead. We came up with a design that we both got in the same place and can be filled in and completed when we get married. The best part is, we are the only two people who had to suffer and shed blood for it.
- Symmetry 14y ago
  Ooh, nice. To the extent that an engagement ring says "I'm willing to make a sacrifice to prove that I'm serious about you" a tattoo totally works.
caf 14y ago
I was lucky, my fiancee is dead keen on Moissanite. She likes the idea that its a "meterorite stone" (even though the ones you can actually buy are industrially grown).
prawn 14y ago
I could not bring myself to spend my full budget on a stone, regardless of the dreams of my then fiancee. Instead I split the budget between the ring and flying her overseas for a while to propose. She got something she still stares at on her hand, and we both had a memorable trip and event that we won't ever forget.
w1ntermute 14y ago
There are a lot of irrational things that smart, educated, and informed people believe in. Not to start a flamewar, but God is a great example of this.
- icelancer 14y ago
  A belief in a higher power can easily be a rational decision.
  - indiecore 14y ago
    and here we gooooo
  - Tichy 14y ago
    Interesting: how can a belief ever be a rational decision? Isn't it irrational by definition?
    - brazzy 14y ago
      Look up Pascal's wager. Te postulates are debatable, but it's certainly a rational argument.
      - Tichy 14y ago
        He doesn't really show that it is possible to believe something intentionally, though.
        gnaffle 14y ago
        I think it's certainly possible to make an intentional decision to train/brainwash yourself into believing in something.
      - confluence 14y ago
        Pascal's wager is interesting but it makes a core assumption that makes it laughable - namely which God/religion/deity do you bet on? The positive sum that the wager demonstrates in a belief in a God is nullified when you divide by the number of Gods/religions/deities in existence (many thousands/millions). Indeed - if you factor exclusive Gods/religions/deities that condemn separate beliefs - the wager goes negative since holding many beliefs that negate each other, with the addition of trying to believe them all, will cost you much more than just not doing so. This assumes pure "afterlife" expected probabilistic value - I'm ignoring societal pressures which would eliminate this problem of many Gods/afterlife and replace it with "Believe in what we do - or die!". Then it's not Pascal's wager any more - it's believe or die because others force you to.
brc 14y ago
>Honestly, as a community of people in the startup ecosystem, we could stand to learn a thing or two here. Yup. Bang on. Apple does a line in 'oh, but you didn't get an Apple' better than anyone else (they aren't a startup but once were) >I swear, De Beers has probably pulled off the greatest marketing stunt in the history of humanity The Australian Meat & Livestock board came up with a marketing idea. On Australia Day, which falls in the middle of Summer, it's very popular to have a family barbecue. About 8 or 9 years ago, they came up with the idea that it was an Australian tradition to put lamb chops on the barbecue for Australia day. Now, I've been around for a few Australia days myself, and I can tell you it's never been a tradition at all. But they got a popular former football player to start running ads (in a humorous manner) to say it was 'unAustralian' not to have Lamb Chops on the Barbecue for Australia day. The actual tagline is 'Don't be unAustralian, serve Lamb on Australia day'. It has been a big success, and now they release pop singles on YouTube and generally create a 'big suspense' to see what they will do this year. Overall, it's been a massive success, and in just a short time, if you arrive at an Australia day barbecue, it would be surprising to not find Lamp Chops sizzling away. In another decade, it will just be one of those societal norms that will require very little advertising to keep it going. http://www.mla.com.au/Marketing-red-meat/Domestic-marketing/Lamb-campaigns http://www.mla.com.au/Marketing-red-meat/Domestic-marketing/... So, these types of stunts find success when the right pieces fall together. Definitely a lot to learn for the budding startup.
- MikeCapone 14y ago
  Unless I'm misremembering, I think there are lots of recently made up holidays that are basically just marketing ploys (Mother's Day and Father's Day).
  - JoeAltmaier 14y ago
    Mothers' Day: 1870 Fathers' Day: 1972
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
elwin 14y ago
> I swear, De Beers has probably pulled off the greatest marketing stunt in the history of humanity. De Beers has the advantage of selling a luxury good. The point of buying a diamond is to demonstrate one's financial ability. People don't really want cheap diamonds. I doubt their marketing campaign is a good pattern for normal products.
- JoeAltmaier 14y ago
  How about the iPhone? Many 'imitations' yet people who don't really know any better by the Apple product. "I don't want a fake" is very likely the reason.
  - theorique 14y ago
    In that case, though, the UI and details actually create a different user experience. As a professional software engineer, I like to think that I "know better" on various criteria. I've used Android phones and while they are fine enough, the UI feels a little 'off' and the responsiveness is lower. It's enough to make a real, subjective difference.
    - JoeAltmaier 14y ago
      The point is, most consumer buy without knowing any of that, or even trying the phone out.
      - theorique 14y ago
        I'm sure there's a lot of following the herd. I like to think that I got an iPhone after carefully considering all the alternatives and making an informed technical analysis because I am a unique individual and I would never follow the herd or copy other peoples' actions. (At least that's what I tell myself.)
      - Bud 14y ago
        You think (based on nothing) that "most" consumers have never tried an iPhone? You might want to think different (sic) about that for a moment, given that there are hundreds of millions of iOS devices out there in use right now. Virtually everyone who can afford an iPhone either has one already, or has at least tried one out a bit.
luser001 14y ago
Not sure if the "gold is made of stars, diamonds are from coal" line will convince her. https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7397200 https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=739720... I give major props to my now wife being OK with the gold engagement ring I bought out of principle. It had a fanciful cheesy design too. :) Good luck!
patio11 14y ago
She even told you her true requirement, which is to look good for her girlfriends. (Watch what happens when ladies announce an engagement or look for the ring shot on Facebook, then tell me I'm off base.) You did not sell her a product which would make her the envy of her girlfriends. "Cheaper than their rings" is the opposite of a victory condition. Don't sell cheap. Sell authentic, sell natural, sell one-of-a-kind, sell meaning, sell status, sell a story, etc.
- patio11 14y ago
  P.S. If you understand the thing she is trying to buy, you don't have to sell her a ring at all. There turns out to be an arbitrage opportunity in social status for, say, middle or upper-middle class Japanese women. Anybody can buy rocks, but nobody can buy a man vacation, so a man who demonstrates ability to take long vacations must be able to buy virtually unlimited amounts of rocks. Regardless of whether I can afford rocks, I can afford long vacations quite easily, so we announced a small rock and a long honeymoon on the same day. It's absolutely unreal how effective that was. All relevant stakeholders believe I'm unreasonably well-off. Ironically, this caused them to sharply upgrade their estimations of what the (quite modest) ring must be worth.
  - andyjsong 14y ago
    What's a long vacation? 6 months in Male, Maldives?
    - rmc 14y ago
      For the modern professional, 1 month would be long.
      - dalke 14y ago
        Excepting modern professionals in various European countries where 1 month is pretty standard.
  - joshkaufman 14y ago
bobowzki 14y ago
You should think twice before you marry...
kkihara 14y ago
Stick with your guns. Why would you buy a diamond when you're so opposed to it for perfectly valid (although potentially subjective) reasons? Does the perception of other people that you are "too poor to afford a real ring" matter to you so much? My wife was appalled when I told her I refused to buy her a diamond engagement ring. "Why wouldn't you want to give me a diamond ring? I couldn't marry someone who wouldn't give me a diamond ring." We're married now and she doesn't even wear the sapphire ring that I bought for her because of chores, etc. Sure, she had to explain to almost everyone why it wasn't a diamond ring but that just means that she had one more topic to go through with her friends.
- HorizonXP 14y ago
  The only person's opinion that matters to me is my girlfriend's, and then my own. I really don't care what others think. I prefer to buck the trend and be non-conformant. However, I have to take my girlfriend's feelings into account. I have to buy the ring, but she's the one that has to wear it. If she has ill-feelings towards the ring when she wears it, she'll hate it. I'm not saying that's what'll happen, I'm just saying I need to take her wants and needs into account. Simply making a decision for her because "I know what's best." is selfish. Anyway, I'm slowly whittling her down. She just told me she may be interested in a sapphire ring.
cabalamat 14y ago
> De Beers has probably pulled off the greatest marketing stunt in the history of humanity. The fact that it's so ingrained in our minds, to the point where a smart, educated, and informed person like my girlfriend still wants a diamond even after knowing all the issues with them, is fascinating. Does she still want the diamond after being shown the article? Most people don't like being manipulated.
- HorizonXP 14y ago
  I sent it to her, and it's a long article. I'm hoping she reads most of it. We went out for coffee after shopping. She knows I'm right about diamonds. Her issue is a) she has difficulty listening to me about these things because she's stubborn and feels like I'm manipulating her b) she doesn't want to buck the trend, be different, and have to explain things to her friends and family. She hates being different, and she hates being the centre of attention. She feels that by not getting a diamond engagement ring, others will speak ill of her behind her back, and she doesn't want to stand out like that. I'm the opposite. I could care less what others think. I don't love being the centre of attention, but I don't mind it. I hate being conformant though. Anyway, it's not criticism of her. I love her dearly, I just need her to see the light.
  - theorique 14y ago
    Anyway, it's not criticism of her. I love her dearly, I just need her to see the light. It kind of sounds like criticism of her. And it reads like you love her conditionally. And you "need her to see the light", is that true? What happens if she doesn't come around to your point of view?
  - katharinen 14y ago
    Might it help to point out that both Princess Di and Kate Middleton got sapphires? I think she'd be pleasantly surprised to hear how much of a non-issue it has been among friends, family, and acquiantances that me and my (also female) fiancee don't wear any engagement ring at all (our ruby and sapphire rings are both waiting to be resized). That said, the point of a gift is to give something the recipient would enjoy -- not something you would want yourself. So, if it really makes a difference to her or her family, I'd recommend getting a diamond, even if it sets back your plans for a house, etc (I hope she understands that!!)
gadders 14y ago
If it's not a diamond, not matter what you call it people are going to think QVC and Diamonique. It's not rational, and these stones might be nicer, but they're not diamonds. Branding, there.
melvinmt 14y ago
> I can't believe this article popped up on HN's front page tonight. This article was actually already posted somewhere in the comments a couple of days ago: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4523063 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4523063
andyjsong 14y ago
Here's my 2 cents on the start up industry, devs are still undervalued. I'm hearing a good dev can command $125k-$150k/year + the hope of an exit, I think that's cute. Lawyers with less value command salaries $250k to $500k. What made De Beers and the diamond industry was with cartels and marketing. I think devs inherently lack both those features being independent thinkers and gasp introverted. Let's change that.
- jlgreco 14y ago
  You want to change developers being independant thinkers? Developers lack the "feature" of cartels? This comment makes no sense and appears to me to be a poorly concealed attempt to wedge an unnecessary argument into this discussion.
dkobia 14y ago
I read a similar article right before I married my wife. Trust me when I say it's a losing battle trying to rationalize how we've been duped by marketing. You'd have to convince both her and her social network... Good luck with that.
nasmorn 14y ago
Buy her the moissanite and deBeer stock worth the price difference. It is just as pretty, shows your financial prowess and will pay for a year of your future childrens college.
guard-of-terra 14y ago
"That's what everyone gets" sums it up. If a person is content to get something "what everyone gets", they are good to be defrauded while supporting labor violations in some third word country. Accepting "what everyone gets" is a real no-go, it's a surefire way to measure a person up. "Too light". Me and my wife, we got outselves a pair of titanium rings for the wedding. They look downright alien, everybody asks about them on sight. But all those opportinities are lost to you once you accept "what everyone gets"
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robflynn 14y ago
My girlfriend wants a Winnebago type thing instead of a diamond, presumably so she can go somewhere if I become especially annoying. ;)
deveac 14y ago
I recently purchased a diamond engagement ring for my fiance. That shopping experience perfectly encapsulated everything there is that I could possibly hate about making a consumer purchase: 1)Product is monopolistic, with supply artificially constrained in order to generate prices that reflect that. Actual value of say, a one carat diamond, is probably a few hundred bucks max. 2)Cultural demand was artificially crafted by a sustained (admittedly brilliant) marketing campaign by the monopolistic entity years ago. It is now ingrained into the core of our culture. Annoying to think that it didn't exist at the beginning of the previous century and that its arrival was not organic. 3)I cannot realistically educate myself on the product in any meaningful sense like I can with a TV or a car. Yes, I visited many jewelers. They all were quite happy to educate me on how diamonds are graded. I read up on my 'Four C's". I peered into the jewelers lens and nodded as I saw the slight imperfections of one stone vs another. But you know what? At the end of the day, there is NO WAY I could accurately grade them, even after all of my research and hands on 'training'. Is that diamond a VS3 or WS1? No idea, but one is far more expensive even though they look the same under the scope. It would probably take me years to be able to identify why. 4)Blood diamonds. People are being enslaved, murdered, and abused in order get these stones to me. Not to mention other horrible labor abuses, and the guns that those diamonds go to fund that wreak havoc in the origin communities. Honestly, there is no way to tell a stone's history, especially when you are dealing with a cartel. You can't exactly ask for proof, and anything they tell/show you...can you really trust the authenticity? So. Anyway. Yeah. I mitigated the 4th point by buying a lab grown diamond. (Not much cheaper than mined diamonds btw if you are wondering). Don't get me wrong, -I was happy to give my fiance something that made her so happy. One of the hilarious premises we all learned when we took our first Econ class was that in order to make those simple models work, we assumed consumers were rational. We all know how true this isn't. This purchase exemplifies that for me. I'm acutely aware of how irrational I personally find it, while being simultaneously aware that I have no problem setting that aside in this (somewhat rare for me) instance. I am infinitely more rational with purchases I make for myself than for those I love. That last sentence is where a lot of margin lies for a LOT of products.
- stuaxo 14y ago
  Ha, the rationality thing is so true - just finished reading 23 things they don't tell you about the free market - it covers just this.
chc 14y ago
I had almost the same conversation with my fiancee. Fast forward nine months, she loves her moissanite ring. I think what changed her mind was actually seeing a moissanite — it is very obviously not "fake," and the stone's fire is amazing. Incidentally, rather than pitch it as "the ones you buy are created in a lab and are cheap," I'd go for something more along the lines of "they grow them through a natural process, kinda like pearls." It's not scientific, but it's true enough.
charlieok 14y ago
This Atlantic article is 30 years old (and still relevant -- props for that). Here's a related one from yesterday: http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/09/study-social-cues-are-the-key-to-an-attractive-facebook-profile-picture/262421/ http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/09/study-soci... “What behavioral psychology reveals about your online photos: Comments and approval from other users end up being more important than the way you look.” It's the same phenomenon both times -- social proof. It's the same reason you're more attractive in a club if you appear to be getting approval from other attractive people. The same reason the original PageRank algorithm did a good job of surfacing web pages people wanted to see.
jcr 14y ago
There are two ways to avoid cartel diamonds. The first you probably know about, namely, man made diamonds, but I've got a hunch her "fake" complaint might apply here too. The second is "Polar Diamonds" from Canada. They are the only source of natural diamonds that I know about that isn't controlled by the cartel.

humbledrone 14y ago

If you end up going with a diamond, you might consider a company like Brilliant Earth [1], which offers "conflict free" diamonds (and other gems), and recycled precious metals. Their gems come from mines that employ adults at reasonable wages. I'm not associated with the company, but they made my fiance's engagement ring and we're very happy with it. [1] http://www.brilliantearth.com/conflict-free-diamonds/ http://www.brilliantearth.com/conflict-free-diamonds/

HorizonXP 14y ago
Thank you for the link! I've been trying to find a decent source for conflict-free diamonds, and this seems to fit the bill. I hope I can convince my girlfriend to go with an alternative, but this is likely a battle that I will lose. The issue centres around the social stigma of not having a diamond ring. Friends and family will ask what the stone is, and need to be educated. And no matter what you tell them, the perception will be that I was too cheap to buy her a real engagement ring. Nevermind the fact that I'm not actually saving any money, I'm just spending it somewhat more wisely. It's actually a little bit of a stressful situation for me. I'm in the Royal Canadian Mint's MintChip Challenge, and I'm hoping to win some gold from the competition, so I can melt it down and make an engagement ring for her from that. In my eyes, that has more meaning behind it. Moreover, she's going on a trip with her sister to Prague & Rome in a month, a few days before our 7 year anniversary. Since she knows a proposal is coming, I was hoping to surprise her by showing up in Rome and proposing to her there. May not be the wisest way to spend my money, especially when I'm not exactly swimming in cash right now, but I felt it would be worth it for the memory and moment. To me, that's a better use for my money than some artificially-valued diamond. Seems like I'll have to scrap that plan and save more money for the ring she wants.
- jquery 14y ago
  Went through the same thing with my wife. In the end I caved and just bought the best damn diamond I could find after 3 months of searching. Easier to explain why you bought an alternative stone than why you bought a shitty diamond.
- YokoZar 14y ago
  You could do the economist thing and try to phrase it in terms of opportunity cost. That is, by insisting on a diamond, she's giving up a moissanite stone that's 5 times the size; by insisting on an uncultured diamond she's giving up a diamond that's twice the size (and more pure to boot).
  - Cass 14y ago
    Speaking as a girl without even the least bit of interest in diamonds, "If you give up the thing you want, you can get a thing you don't want that's TWICE AS BIG" is just in no way a selling point, especially as long as her association with those stones is that they're fakes. You can try to make the moissanite seem cooler, or the lab diamond more ethical, but women are already aware that if you buy "fake" jewelry, you can get bigger stones, and generally that's just seen as trashy.

clobber 14y ago

Congrats on presenting a diamond-alternative to her. The diamond trade is absolutely disgusting and unfortunately many people seem to equate "love" with a shiny rock. If it came down to it, I would have to reevaluate marrying someone that refused to believe otherwise.

hkmurakami 14y ago
I started thinking about this issue a few days ago and have yet to come up with a strategy for convincing a (future) partner on the follies of purchasing a diamond. Is there any recourse at all to the epic marketing job De Beers has masterminded?
- jquery 14y ago
  Good luck. It's akin to convincing your SO that you don't want to celebrate Christmas because it's a product of retail marketing.
  - hkmurakami 14y ago
    Oh, did I mention that our family hasn't bought one another gifts on Christmas ever sine I was about 12 years old? :) Maybe there is hope after all! (not)
    - heretohelp 14y ago
      Well. We can't all be generalists.
- katabatic 14y ago
  How about sending them this article?
- icelancer 14y ago
  Find someone who can think logically. Not easy, of course...
- dllthomas 14y ago

dllthomas 14y ago

> "I don't want something fake!" Symbolizing the triumph of technology and human progress is not really the ideal for an engagement ring, but it's a lot better than symbolizing blood and oppression (depending, I suppose, on your views on marriage, but given that you were looking at engagement rings I expect yours are favorable...) My wife has a lab-grown emerald from GreenKarat (http://greenkarat.com http://greenkarat.com) on her finger, and she's very happy with it. She was even more opposed to diamonds than I was, going in (I think they look nice, just not worth the money or ethics, she doesn't like the look either). But yeah, for the record, "That's what everyone gets" is off by at least one! If her heart is really set on the diamond, the best option is a ring in your family or hers, if one exists. Failing that, vintage rings you can find at estate sales and the like may be a more ethical approach than buying new diamonds. They'll have a bloody history but at least you're not adding to demand that will spur new bloodshed. "Ethical" diamonds sold presently in jewelry stores, per my understanding, are better than they were 10 years ago, but the Kimberley Process still has issues.

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boyter 14y ago

I actually had this argument as well recently. She however did agree with me and is now sporting a Sapphire engagement ring. It does have some diamonds on it but the main stone in Sapphire. She wanted it because she didn't want what everyone else had. Not sure how old you are, but I have also noticed this trend in Gen Y (friends like myself) starting to get colored gemstones. Of course this is totally anecdotal but maybe De Beers stranglehold is finally going away? Congratulations as well by the way.

evincarofautumn 14y ago
I haven’t noticed such a trend, but it would be welcome. Never liked the look of diamonds, myself, so I always figured if I got engaged I’d just look for the gemstone that’s right for my partner—their look, their personality.
- boyter 14y ago
  As I said purely anecdotal, but it does seem to be a trend in my circle of friends. BTW you will have little to no say in the process. Just go with whatever she requests it will make your life easier.
- raleec 14y ago
  The fact that you (and probably she) are presuming that a stone is required in the first place means that DeBeers has won the larger victory.
  - evincarofautumn 14y ago
    I don’t; jewelry is just nice.
brazzy 14y ago
Sapphires are actually even more bizarre. They can be produced artifically, at perfect quality and any size, relatively cheaply. The only way to distinguish natural ones is by their impurities. The artificial ones are literally a superior product in every way, yet are considered "fake" and thus disgraceful to wear.

philwelch 14y ago

My fiancee and I did tattoos instead. We came up with a design that we both got in the same place and can be filled in and completed when we get married. The best part is, we are the only two people who had to suffer and shed blood for it.

Symmetry 14y ago
Ooh, nice. To the extent that an engagement ring says "I'm willing to make a sacrifice to prove that I'm serious about you" a tattoo totally works.

caf 14y ago

I was lucky, my fiancee is dead keen on Moissanite. She likes the idea that its a "meterorite stone" (even though the ones you can actually buy are industrially grown).

prawn 14y ago

I could not bring myself to spend my full budget on a stone, regardless of the dreams of my then fiancee. Instead I split the budget between the ring and flying her overseas for a while to propose. She got something she still stares at on her hand, and we both had a memorable trip and event that we won't ever forget.

w1ntermute 14y ago

There are a lot of irrational things that smart, educated, and informed people believe in. Not to start a flamewar, but God is a great example of this.

icelancer 14y ago
A belief in a higher power can easily be a rational decision.
- indiecore 14y ago
  and here we gooooo
- Tichy 14y ago
  Interesting: how can a belief ever be a rational decision? Isn't it irrational by definition?
  - brazzy 14y ago
    Look up Pascal's wager. Te postulates are debatable, but it's certainly a rational argument.
    - Tichy 14y ago
      He doesn't really show that it is possible to believe something intentionally, though.
      - gnaffle 14y ago
        I think it's certainly possible to make an intentional decision to train/brainwash yourself into believing in something.
    - confluence 14y ago
      Pascal's wager is interesting but it makes a core assumption that makes it laughable - namely which God/religion/deity do you bet on? The positive sum that the wager demonstrates in a belief in a God is nullified when you divide by the number of Gods/religions/deities in existence (many thousands/millions). Indeed - if you factor exclusive Gods/religions/deities that condemn separate beliefs - the wager goes negative since holding many beliefs that negate each other, with the addition of trying to believe them all, will cost you much more than just not doing so. This assumes pure "afterlife" expected probabilistic value - I'm ignoring societal pressures which would eliminate this problem of many Gods/afterlife and replace it with "Believe in what we do - or die!". Then it's not Pascal's wager any more - it's believe or die because others force you to.

brc 14y ago

>Honestly, as a community of people in the startup ecosystem, we could stand to learn a thing or two here. Yup. Bang on. Apple does a line in 'oh, but you didn't get an Apple' better than anyone else (they aren't a startup but once were) >I swear, De Beers has probably pulled off the greatest marketing stunt in the history of humanity The Australian Meat & Livestock board came up with a marketing idea. On Australia Day, which falls in the middle of Summer, it's very popular to have a family barbecue. About 8 or 9 years ago, they came up with the idea that it was an Australian tradition to put lamb chops on the barbecue for Australia day. Now, I've been around for a few Australia days myself, and I can tell you it's never been a tradition at all. But they got a popular former football player to start running ads (in a humorous manner) to say it was 'unAustralian' not to have Lamb Chops on the Barbecue for Australia day. The actual tagline is 'Don't be unAustralian, serve Lamb on Australia day'. It has been a big success, and now they release pop singles on YouTube and generally create a 'big suspense' to see what they will do this year. Overall, it's been a massive success, and in just a short time, if you arrive at an Australia day barbecue, it would be surprising to not find Lamp Chops sizzling away. In another decade, it will just be one of those societal norms that will require very little advertising to keep it going. http://www.mla.com.au/Marketing-red-meat/Domestic-marketing/Lamb-campaigns http://www.mla.com.au/Marketing-red-meat/Domestic-marketing/... So, these types of stunts find success when the right pieces fall together. Definitely a lot to learn for the budding startup.

MikeCapone 14y ago
Unless I'm misremembering, I think there are lots of recently made up holidays that are basically just marketing ploys (Mother's Day and Father's Day).
- JoeAltmaier 14y ago
  Mothers' Day: 1870 Fathers' Day: 1972
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]

elwin 14y ago

> I swear, De Beers has probably pulled off the greatest marketing stunt in the history of humanity. De Beers has the advantage of selling a luxury good. The point of buying a diamond is to demonstrate one's financial ability. People don't really want cheap diamonds. I doubt their marketing campaign is a good pattern for normal products.

JoeAltmaier 14y ago
How about the iPhone? Many 'imitations' yet people who don't really know any better by the Apple product. "I don't want a fake" is very likely the reason.
- theorique 14y ago
  In that case, though, the UI and details actually create a different user experience. As a professional software engineer, I like to think that I "know better" on various criteria. I've used Android phones and while they are fine enough, the UI feels a little 'off' and the responsiveness is lower. It's enough to make a real, subjective difference.
  - JoeAltmaier 14y ago
    The point is, most consumer buy without knowing any of that, or even trying the phone out.
    - theorique 14y ago
      I'm sure there's a lot of following the herd. I like to think that I got an iPhone after carefully considering all the alternatives and making an informed technical analysis because I am a unique individual and I would never follow the herd or copy other peoples' actions. (At least that's what I tell myself.)
    - Bud 14y ago
      You think (based on nothing) that "most" consumers have never tried an iPhone? You might want to think different (sic) about that for a moment, given that there are hundreds of millions of iOS devices out there in use right now. Virtually everyone who can afford an iPhone either has one already, or has at least tried one out a bit.

luser001 14y ago

Not sure if the "gold is made of stars, diamonds are from coal" line will convince her. https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7397200 https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=739720... I give major props to my now wife being OK with the gold engagement ring I bought out of principle. It had a fanciful cheesy design too. :) Good luck!

patio11 14y ago

She even told you her true requirement, which is to look good for her girlfriends. (Watch what happens when ladies announce an engagement or look for the ring shot on Facebook, then tell me I'm off base.) You did not sell her a product which would make her the envy of her girlfriends. "Cheaper than their rings" is the opposite of a victory condition. Don't sell cheap. Sell authentic, sell natural, sell one-of-a-kind, sell meaning, sell status, sell a story, etc.

patio11 14y ago
P.S. If you understand the thing she is trying to buy, you don't have to sell her a ring at all. There turns out to be an arbitrage opportunity in social status for, say, middle or upper-middle class Japanese women. Anybody can buy rocks, but nobody can buy a man vacation, so a man who demonstrates ability to take long vacations must be able to buy virtually unlimited amounts of rocks. Regardless of whether I can afford rocks, I can afford long vacations quite easily, so we announced a small rock and a long honeymoon on the same day. It's absolutely unreal how effective that was. All relevant stakeholders believe I'm unreasonably well-off. Ironically, this caused them to sharply upgrade their estimations of what the (quite modest) ring must be worth.
- andyjsong 14y ago
  What's a long vacation? 6 months in Male, Maldives?
  - rmc 14y ago
    For the modern professional, 1 month would be long.
    - dalke 14y ago
      Excepting modern professionals in various European countries where 1 month is pretty standard.
- joshkaufman 14y ago

bobowzki 14y ago

You should think twice before you marry...

kkihara 14y ago

Stick with your guns. Why would you buy a diamond when you're so opposed to it for perfectly valid (although potentially subjective) reasons? Does the perception of other people that you are "too poor to afford a real ring" matter to you so much? My wife was appalled when I told her I refused to buy her a diamond engagement ring. "Why wouldn't you want to give me a diamond ring? I couldn't marry someone who wouldn't give me a diamond ring." We're married now and she doesn't even wear the sapphire ring that I bought for her because of chores, etc. Sure, she had to explain to almost everyone why it wasn't a diamond ring but that just means that she had one more topic to go through with her friends.

HorizonXP 14y ago
The only person's opinion that matters to me is my girlfriend's, and then my own. I really don't care what others think. I prefer to buck the trend and be non-conformant. However, I have to take my girlfriend's feelings into account. I have to buy the ring, but she's the one that has to wear it. If she has ill-feelings towards the ring when she wears it, she'll hate it. I'm not saying that's what'll happen, I'm just saying I need to take her wants and needs into account. Simply making a decision for her because "I know what's best." is selfish. Anyway, I'm slowly whittling her down. She just told me she may be interested in a sapphire ring.

cabalamat 14y ago

> De Beers has probably pulled off the greatest marketing stunt in the history of humanity. The fact that it's so ingrained in our minds, to the point where a smart, educated, and informed person like my girlfriend still wants a diamond even after knowing all the issues with them, is fascinating. Does she still want the diamond after being shown the article? Most people don't like being manipulated.

HorizonXP 14y ago
I sent it to her, and it's a long article. I'm hoping she reads most of it. We went out for coffee after shopping. She knows I'm right about diamonds. Her issue is a) she has difficulty listening to me about these things because she's stubborn and feels like I'm manipulating her b) she doesn't want to buck the trend, be different, and have to explain things to her friends and family. She hates being different, and she hates being the centre of attention. She feels that by not getting a diamond engagement ring, others will speak ill of her behind her back, and she doesn't want to stand out like that. I'm the opposite. I could care less what others think. I don't love being the centre of attention, but I don't mind it. I hate being conformant though. Anyway, it's not criticism of her. I love her dearly, I just need her to see the light.
- theorique 14y ago
  Anyway, it's not criticism of her. I love her dearly, I just need her to see the light. It kind of sounds like criticism of her. And it reads like you love her conditionally. And you "need her to see the light", is that true? What happens if she doesn't come around to your point of view?
- katharinen 14y ago
  Might it help to point out that both Princess Di and Kate Middleton got sapphires? I think she'd be pleasantly surprised to hear how much of a non-issue it has been among friends, family, and acquiantances that me and my (also female) fiancee don't wear any engagement ring at all (our ruby and sapphire rings are both waiting to be resized). That said, the point of a gift is to give something the recipient would enjoy -- not something you would want yourself. So, if it really makes a difference to her or her family, I'd recommend getting a diamond, even if it sets back your plans for a house, etc (I hope she understands that!!)

gadders 14y ago

If it's not a diamond, not matter what you call it people are going to think QVC and Diamonique. It's not rational, and these stones might be nicer, but they're not diamonds. Branding, there.

melvinmt 14y ago

> I can't believe this article popped up on HN's front page tonight. This article was actually already posted somewhere in the comments a couple of days ago: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4523063 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4523063

andyjsong 14y ago

Here's my 2 cents on the start up industry, devs are still undervalued. I'm hearing a good dev can command $125k-$150k/year + the hope of an exit, I think that's cute. Lawyers with less value command salaries $250k to $500k. What made De Beers and the diamond industry was with cartels and marketing. I think devs inherently lack both those features being independent thinkers and gasp introverted. Let's change that.

jlgreco 14y ago
You want to change developers being independant thinkers? Developers lack the "feature" of cartels? This comment makes no sense and appears to me to be a poorly concealed attempt to wedge an unnecessary argument into this discussion.

dkobia 14y ago

I read a similar article right before I married my wife. Trust me when I say it's a losing battle trying to rationalize how we've been duped by marketing. You'd have to convince both her and her social network... Good luck with that.

nasmorn 14y ago

Buy her the moissanite and deBeer stock worth the price difference. It is just as pretty, shows your financial prowess and will pay for a year of your future childrens college.

guard-of-terra 14y ago

"That's what everyone gets" sums it up. If a person is content to get something "what everyone gets", they are good to be defrauded while supporting labor violations in some third word country. Accepting "what everyone gets" is a real no-go, it's a surefire way to measure a person up. "Too light". Me and my wife, we got outselves a pair of titanium rings for the wedding. They look downright alien, everybody asks about them on sight. But all those opportinities are lost to you once you accept "what everyone gets"

deleted 14y ago

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robflynn 14y ago

My girlfriend wants a Winnebago type thing instead of a diamond, presumably so she can go somewhere if I become especially annoying. ;)

deveac 14y ago

I recently purchased a diamond engagement ring for my fiance. That shopping experience perfectly encapsulated everything there is that I could possibly hate about making a consumer purchase: 1)Product is monopolistic, with supply artificially constrained in order to generate prices that reflect that. Actual value of say, a one carat diamond, is probably a few hundred bucks max. 2)Cultural demand was artificially crafted by a sustained (admittedly brilliant) marketing campaign by the monopolistic entity years ago. It is now ingrained into the core of our culture. Annoying to think that it didn't exist at the beginning of the previous century and that its arrival was not organic. 3)I cannot realistically educate myself on the product in any meaningful sense like I can with a TV or a car. Yes, I visited many jewelers. They all were quite happy to educate me on how diamonds are graded. I read up on my 'Four C's". I peered into the jewelers lens and nodded as I saw the slight imperfections of one stone vs another. But you know what? At the end of the day, there is NO WAY I could accurately grade them, even after all of my research and hands on 'training'. Is that diamond a VS3 or WS1? No idea, but one is far more expensive even though they look the same under the scope. It would probably take me years to be able to identify why. 4)Blood diamonds. People are being enslaved, murdered, and abused in order get these stones to me. Not to mention other horrible labor abuses, and the guns that those diamonds go to fund that wreak havoc in the origin communities. Honestly, there is no way to tell a stone's history, especially when you are dealing with a cartel. You can't exactly ask for proof, and anything they tell/show you...can you really trust the authenticity? So. Anyway. Yeah. I mitigated the 4th point by buying a lab grown diamond. (Not much cheaper than mined diamonds btw if you are wondering). Don't get me wrong, -I was happy to give my fiance something that made her so happy. One of the hilarious premises we all learned when we took our first Econ class was that in order to make those simple models work, we assumed consumers were rational. We all know how true this isn't. This purchase exemplifies that for me. I'm acutely aware of how irrational I personally find it, while being simultaneously aware that I have no problem setting that aside in this (somewhat rare for me) instance. I am infinitely more rational with purchases I make for myself than for those I love. That last sentence is where a lot of margin lies for a LOT of products.

stuaxo 14y ago
Ha, the rationality thing is so true - just finished reading 23 things they don't tell you about the free market - it covers just this.

chc 14y ago

I had almost the same conversation with my fiancee. Fast forward nine months, she loves her moissanite ring. I think what changed her mind was actually seeing a moissanite — it is very obviously not "fake," and the stone's fire is amazing. Incidentally, rather than pitch it as "the ones you buy are created in a lab and are cheap," I'd go for something more along the lines of "they grow them through a natural process, kinda like pearls." It's not scientific, but it's true enough.

charlieok 14y ago

This Atlantic article is 30 years old (and still relevant -- props for that). Here's a related one from yesterday: http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/09/study-social-cues-are-the-key-to-an-attractive-facebook-profile-picture/262421/ http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/09/study-soci... “What behavioral psychology reveals about your online photos: Comments and approval from other users end up being more important than the way you look.” It's the same phenomenon both times -- social proof. It's the same reason you're more attractive in a club if you appear to be getting approval from other attractive people. The same reason the original PageRank algorithm did a good job of surfacing web pages people wanted to see.

jcr 14y ago

There are two ways to avoid cartel diamonds. The first you probably know about, namely, man made diamonds, but I've got a hunch her "fake" complaint might apply here too. The second is "Polar Diamonds" from Canada. They are the only source of natural diamonds that I know about that isn't controlled by the cartel.