6 ms·

I'd be curious to see how the all-in price of airline tickets has evolved in recent decades. It feels like it's now commonplace to have hundreds of dollars in a

I'd be curious to see how the all-in price of airline tickets has evolved in recent decades. It feels like it's now commonplace to have hundreds of dollars in additional fees for things like legroom. That means a cheap ticket is a midrange ticket and a midrange ticket can end up being quite expensive unless you fall for the "we get to strap you behind the bathroom with only the clothes on your back" Saver ticket. It also means that you're often still out actual money if you use award miles.

izacus 1y ago
Hundreds of dollars for legroom? Are you... sure? For what kind of flights?
- ghaff 1y ago
  I'm most familiar with United. Economy Plus (which is mostly about a bit more legroom) does have a modest premium absent sufficient status that gets you it for free. But Premium Economy that gives you somewhat wider seats as well as legroom gets into the hundreds of dollars. International business has lots of benefits including legroom and lie flat seating but that usually gets into the thousands.
  - makeitdouble 1y ago
    Nothing should be allowed to be called "Premium Economy"
    - ghaff 1y ago
      Eh, they already had economy plus. Premium economy is basically traditional domestic business class on widebody international flights that have lie-flat business (Polaris) seating as well. Honestly, putting it in the economy bucket in contrast to Polaris seems pretty honest in the scheme of things.
    - whatshisface 1y ago
      Premium doesn't have to mean "elite," it might also refer to a risk premium or any situation where a buyer has to pay extra. ;)
  - matwood 1y ago
    EP is just economy with slightly more leg room. PE is closer to business than EP. The food is upgraded along with the service. The seats are more recliner like and you generally have more room. Additionally, the PE seats are often the quickest to deplane if that's important. I can also work in PE seat, whereas EP not so much. The problem with PE is that it's often not that great of a deal. Unless it's a super busy route, you can usually keep shopping for an upgrade and just go all the way to lay flat business. Side note, when going business class, understand that not all plane layouts and seats are the same. Check seat guru. Source - I fly back and forth to the EU quite a bit.
    - ghaff 1y ago
      I agree with all that. The food still isn't great. And the seat still isn't great for a red-eye relative to business. I wouldn't generally work on a plane anyway. I've been in PE--don't remember the circumstances--but as I recall didn't think it was anything special for the cost.
      - matwood 1y ago
        Your final point is exactly it. PE is better, but the cost difference is generally too high above EP. At that point I tend to just go BC. To your other points, at the end of the day, it's an airplane. And since I'm usually flying US airlines, even business class isn't that special outside of laying flat. I do fly back and forth to the EU enough though, that being able to work for 4ish hours is pretty useful.
        ghaff 1y ago
        >it's an airplane Yeah. For me, $5K or whatever is still a decent amount and, even if you just put it in the vacation pile, that's a decent amount for meals and other experiences vs. being a bit more comfortable over a 10 hour (or whatever) flight.
        matwood 1y ago
        My trick is that I always just buy the base economy ticket that can still be upgraded. Then I check for upgrades every couple days. What I found is that prices to move classes will vary wildly as they try to sell all the seats. It also makes it easier to upgrade a single leg - an overnight flight is more important to be lay flat than a daytime flight for example. The other part of my equation is that I put a 'dollar figure x flight time' that I'm willing to pay to be more comfortable. If I see a price that hits my threshold I upgrade, otherwise not.
- arrozconcosas 1y ago
  One example: Chicago to New York on United, direct flight that is ~2.5 hours. $209 for economy and $381 for Economy Plus. This is a $172 difference.
  - hopelite 1y ago
    Maybe karma for short jokes? Next up, $200 for head-room. You didn't think you could fly keeping your head upright for free, did you?
    - hopelite 1y ago
      I guess people don’t like jokes? Or do people have chips on their shoulders? Sad state of affairs
  - sroussey 1y ago
    And its even more for first class!
    - showerst 1y ago
      Sure, but everyone agrees that first class is full of perks. “People taller than 6’1 can sit here without being in pain” shouldn’t be a multi-hundred dollar up charge.
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
- runako 1y ago
  In a search just now, Delta Main r/t from ATL-LAX is $337. Delta Comfort on the same flight is $727. (Yes, it's more than 2x the price.) Obviously Comfort boards earlier, but it's not unreasonable to attribute most of the fare differential to the legroom. Checked bags are also extra for either seat.
  - onionisafruit 1y ago
    Don’t forget they give you all the 10¢ bags of sun chips you can eat.
    - galaxy_gas 1y ago
      Recently I had received a mini packet of crisps that had four in it. Four How is that even worth the packaging cost
  - OkayPhysicist 1y ago
    I've never understood why boarding early is considered a premium worth paying for (for normal flights with assigned seating). Planes are never as comfortable as whatever I have access to in the airport, whether that's hanging out in the lounge or sipping a drink at a restaurant, or just stretching my legs walking around the airport.
    - abawany 1y ago
      When I used to have carry-ons, boarding early ensured that I got room in the overhead bins to place the bag. I now use under-seater bags only and pack light so I no longer care when I get to my seat.
      - pavel_lishin 1y ago
        Yep. I've taken several flights in the past few months, and _every time_ by the time my boarding group was called, the staff announced that there was no more overhead bin space, and people would have to check bags.
- tclancy 1y ago
  US flights (99% of what I have experienced) definitely can get into three figures for anything other than "middle seat, way back". They know there's at least a built-in audience of taller people who will spring for legroom on any flight over an hour. And now that I am old and tall, an aisle seat and legroom are incredibly valuable to me (don't tell 'em, ok?).
  - Y_Y 1y ago
    Oddly there is no such premium for wide people. I understand (somewhat) price discriminating based on the quantity of space required by the passenger (for comfort or from physical necessity), but then why does this apply to one dimension and not the other. I'm not even talking about pay-by-weight as was famously tried between pacific islands. Nobody wants to have someone spilling over the armrest into their seat, and I'm sure plenty of people who are wider than the seat would like to fit without going first class. I'm not even so unusually sized, but cannot sit in the aisle without being hit by every person and trolley passing by.
    - jdlshore 1y ago
      Most airlines require very wide people to buy an extra seat. The requirement is that they have to be able to lower the armrest.
      - brewdad 1y ago
        Delta is famous for selling that second seat out from under passengers who planned ahead. It shouldn't be legal but apparently is. There is a way to get that second seat permanently linked to your primary one but it involves calling and speaking to an agent. Online purchases won't be protected.
        jdlshore 1y ago
        Well, yes, their site says clearly that you need to talk to an agent to arrange this. (It also says they’ll refund it if the plane isn’t sold out.)
- joshstrange 1y ago
  Yes, as a 6' 2" person, I can assure you that a single leg of a flight will be less that $100 but round trip and multiple legs moves it to $200+ very easily.
- onionisafruit 1y ago
  The point of the comment is it’s hard to be sure because the pricing is anything but clear.
- mkipper 1y ago
  I'm 6'6" and I basically treat an exit row upgrade as non-negotiable. It's just a fundamental cost of long haul travel for me if I can't swing premium economy or business class. To get some extra legroom, I paid (round trip, in CAD) $250 for a trip to Dublin this year and $320 for a trip to Hong Kong in 2023. That's a lot of money, but it was <50% of the cost to upgrade to premium economy and <20% of the cost to upgrade to business class. This used to be much cheaper. I remember paying ~$100 for similar upgrades a decade ago, but airlines got wise to this at some point and jacked the prices way up.
  - pimlottc 1y ago
    Ah, for the days of old, when you could just ask nicely at the counter for exit row...
    - mkipper 1y ago
      This isn't totally dead. I missed a flight last year and got bumped to a flight the next morning on some weird ticket class where I didn't get a seat assignment until the gate. The gate agent was able to give me a bulkhead seat with extra legroom at no cost. And this was with United, not some airline with a shining reputation for customer service. So you can roll the dice and try to get a premium seat at the gate, but that's not a risk I'm usually willing to take.
hopelite 1y ago
Related to that; I am curious in what airlines think they will get or what motivates them to prioritize being deceptive, sneaky, dishonest, manipulative, lying, con-artists, i.e., just abusive all around? If everyone is required to provide "all in pricing" then there is no competitive advantage in being a bigger, better fraud; so must it be concluded that they think they have a competitive advantage at being the better scheming, fraudulent, manipulative con artist? The airline market is so constricted and basically well across the line of a cartel, but I guess they think they get something out of it or do they just like the getting one over on people? "ha, you thought you were going to have a good time with your family or see your grandmother's funeral for X price, but we squeezed another $200 out of you, Sucker! *board room high fives all around*" Or maybe is it a kind of momentum of the people and organizational structure that was built up over many years, aimed at facilitating the con and fraud perpetrated on the public that still has power to manipulate the airline enterprises themselves? The people who used to do that are after all, as I assume adept and oriented towards being deceptive, manipulative, scheming. It's all a bit odd to me and I would love if someone could spill the beans on what motivates the airlines on being so adamant about cheating, lying, abusing, scamming, conning and generally being really awful to people and society.
- nemomarx 1y ago
  First principle is that customers will choose whoever has the cheapest flights in general, and airlines that try to market on having an inclusive price without surprise fees suffer anyway because the real cost is closer to fees. The second is price discrimination - think current McDonald's prices. Soaking people who can afford it and letting people who are very frugal navigate your confusing system and membership etc is worth a good amount of money
  - ghaff 1y ago
    I'll just amend to say that many on this forum are probably not super price-sensitive. But, within the broader population, many people are going to be more or less unconditionally looking to shave $100 off their family vacation. Which encourages a lot of a la carte nickel and diming over all-in charges.

izacus 1y ago

Hundreds of dollars for legroom? Are you... sure? For what kind of flights?

ghaff 1y ago
I'm most familiar with United. Economy Plus (which is mostly about a bit more legroom) does have a modest premium absent sufficient status that gets you it for free. But Premium Economy that gives you somewhat wider seats as well as legroom gets into the hundreds of dollars. International business has lots of benefits including legroom and lie flat seating but that usually gets into the thousands.
- makeitdouble 1y ago
  Nothing should be allowed to be called "Premium Economy"
  - ghaff 1y ago
    Eh, they already had economy plus. Premium economy is basically traditional domestic business class on widebody international flights that have lie-flat business (Polaris) seating as well. Honestly, putting it in the economy bucket in contrast to Polaris seems pretty honest in the scheme of things.
  - whatshisface 1y ago
    Premium doesn't have to mean "elite," it might also refer to a risk premium or any situation where a buyer has to pay extra. ;)
- matwood 1y ago
  EP is just economy with slightly more leg room. PE is closer to business than EP. The food is upgraded along with the service. The seats are more recliner like and you generally have more room. Additionally, the PE seats are often the quickest to deplane if that's important. I can also work in PE seat, whereas EP not so much. The problem with PE is that it's often not that great of a deal. Unless it's a super busy route, you can usually keep shopping for an upgrade and just go all the way to lay flat business. Side note, when going business class, understand that not all plane layouts and seats are the same. Check seat guru. Source - I fly back and forth to the EU quite a bit.
  - ghaff 1y ago
    I agree with all that. The food still isn't great. And the seat still isn't great for a red-eye relative to business. I wouldn't generally work on a plane anyway. I've been in PE--don't remember the circumstances--but as I recall didn't think it was anything special for the cost.
    - matwood 1y ago
      Your final point is exactly it. PE is better, but the cost difference is generally too high above EP. At that point I tend to just go BC. To your other points, at the end of the day, it's an airplane. And since I'm usually flying US airlines, even business class isn't that special outside of laying flat. I do fly back and forth to the EU enough though, that being able to work for 4ish hours is pretty useful.
      - ghaff 1y ago
        >it's an airplane Yeah. For me, $5K or whatever is still a decent amount and, even if you just put it in the vacation pile, that's a decent amount for meals and other experiences vs. being a bit more comfortable over a 10 hour (or whatever) flight.
        matwood 1y ago
        My trick is that I always just buy the base economy ticket that can still be upgraded. Then I check for upgrades every couple days. What I found is that prices to move classes will vary wildly as they try to sell all the seats. It also makes it easier to upgrade a single leg - an overnight flight is more important to be lay flat than a daytime flight for example. The other part of my equation is that I put a 'dollar figure x flight time' that I'm willing to pay to be more comfortable. If I see a price that hits my threshold I upgrade, otherwise not.
arrozconcosas 1y ago
One example: Chicago to New York on United, direct flight that is ~2.5 hours. $209 for economy and $381 for Economy Plus. This is a $172 difference.
- hopelite 1y ago
  Maybe karma for short jokes? Next up, $200 for head-room. You didn't think you could fly keeping your head upright for free, did you?
  - hopelite 1y ago
    I guess people don’t like jokes? Or do people have chips on their shoulders? Sad state of affairs
- sroussey 1y ago
  And its even more for first class!
  - showerst 1y ago
    Sure, but everyone agrees that first class is full of perks. “People taller than 6’1 can sit here without being in pain” shouldn’t be a multi-hundred dollar up charge.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
runako 1y ago
In a search just now, Delta Main r/t from ATL-LAX is $337. Delta Comfort on the same flight is $727. (Yes, it's more than 2x the price.) Obviously Comfort boards earlier, but it's not unreasonable to attribute most of the fare differential to the legroom. Checked bags are also extra for either seat.
- onionisafruit 1y ago
  Don’t forget they give you all the 10¢ bags of sun chips you can eat.
  - galaxy_gas 1y ago
    Recently I had received a mini packet of crisps that had four in it. Four How is that even worth the packaging cost
- OkayPhysicist 1y ago
  I've never understood why boarding early is considered a premium worth paying for (for normal flights with assigned seating). Planes are never as comfortable as whatever I have access to in the airport, whether that's hanging out in the lounge or sipping a drink at a restaurant, or just stretching my legs walking around the airport.
  - abawany 1y ago
    When I used to have carry-ons, boarding early ensured that I got room in the overhead bins to place the bag. I now use under-seater bags only and pack light so I no longer care when I get to my seat.
    - pavel_lishin 1y ago
      Yep. I've taken several flights in the past few months, and _every time_ by the time my boarding group was called, the staff announced that there was no more overhead bin space, and people would have to check bags.
tclancy 1y ago
US flights (99% of what I have experienced) definitely can get into three figures for anything other than "middle seat, way back". They know there's at least a built-in audience of taller people who will spring for legroom on any flight over an hour. And now that I am old and tall, an aisle seat and legroom are incredibly valuable to me (don't tell 'em, ok?).
- Y_Y 1y ago
  Oddly there is no such premium for wide people. I understand (somewhat) price discriminating based on the quantity of space required by the passenger (for comfort or from physical necessity), but then why does this apply to one dimension and not the other. I'm not even talking about pay-by-weight as was famously tried between pacific islands. Nobody wants to have someone spilling over the armrest into their seat, and I'm sure plenty of people who are wider than the seat would like to fit without going first class. I'm not even so unusually sized, but cannot sit in the aisle without being hit by every person and trolley passing by.
  - jdlshore 1y ago
    Most airlines require very wide people to buy an extra seat. The requirement is that they have to be able to lower the armrest.
    - brewdad 1y ago
      Delta is famous for selling that second seat out from under passengers who planned ahead. It shouldn't be legal but apparently is. There is a way to get that second seat permanently linked to your primary one but it involves calling and speaking to an agent. Online purchases won't be protected.
      - jdlshore 1y ago
        Well, yes, their site says clearly that you need to talk to an agent to arrange this. (It also says they’ll refund it if the plane isn’t sold out.)
joshstrange 1y ago
Yes, as a 6' 2" person, I can assure you that a single leg of a flight will be less that $100 but round trip and multiple legs moves it to $200+ very easily.
onionisafruit 1y ago
The point of the comment is it’s hard to be sure because the pricing is anything but clear.
mkipper 1y ago
I'm 6'6" and I basically treat an exit row upgrade as non-negotiable. It's just a fundamental cost of long haul travel for me if I can't swing premium economy or business class. To get some extra legroom, I paid (round trip, in CAD) $250 for a trip to Dublin this year and $320 for a trip to Hong Kong in 2023. That's a lot of money, but it was <50% of the cost to upgrade to premium economy and <20% of the cost to upgrade to business class. This used to be much cheaper. I remember paying ~$100 for similar upgrades a decade ago, but airlines got wise to this at some point and jacked the prices way up.
- pimlottc 1y ago
  Ah, for the days of old, when you could just ask nicely at the counter for exit row...
  - mkipper 1y ago
    This isn't totally dead. I missed a flight last year and got bumped to a flight the next morning on some weird ticket class where I didn't get a seat assignment until the gate. The gate agent was able to give me a bulkhead seat with extra legroom at no cost. And this was with United, not some airline with a shining reputation for customer service. So you can roll the dice and try to get a premium seat at the gate, but that's not a risk I'm usually willing to take.

hopelite 1y ago

Related to that; I am curious in what airlines think they will get or what motivates them to prioritize being deceptive, sneaky, dishonest, manipulative, lying, con-artists, i.e., just abusive all around? If everyone is required to provide "all in pricing" then there is no competitive advantage in being a bigger, better fraud; so must it be concluded that they think they have a competitive advantage at being the better scheming, fraudulent, manipulative con artist? The airline market is so constricted and basically well across the line of a cartel, but I guess they think they get something out of it or do they just like the getting one over on people? "ha, you thought you were going to have a good time with your family or see your grandmother's funeral for X price, but we squeezed another $200 out of you, Sucker! *board room high fives all around*" Or maybe is it a kind of momentum of the people and organizational structure that was built up over many years, aimed at facilitating the con and fraud perpetrated on the public that still has power to manipulate the airline enterprises themselves? The people who used to do that are after all, as I assume adept and oriented towards being deceptive, manipulative, scheming. It's all a bit odd to me and I would love if someone could spill the beans on what motivates the airlines on being so adamant about cheating, lying, abusing, scamming, conning and generally being really awful to people and society.

nemomarx 1y ago
First principle is that customers will choose whoever has the cheapest flights in general, and airlines that try to market on having an inclusive price without surprise fees suffer anyway because the real cost is closer to fees. The second is price discrimination - think current McDonald's prices. Soaking people who can afford it and letting people who are very frugal navigate your confusing system and membership etc is worth a good amount of money
- ghaff 1y ago
  I'll just amend to say that many on this forum are probably not super price-sensitive. But, within the broader population, many people are going to be more or less unconditionally looking to shave $100 off their family vacation. Which encourages a lot of a la carte nickel and diming over all-in charges.