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For those who are interested in origins, a Coinbase sponsored protocol. With Stripe moving into the space heavily and looking to lock things up in "Stripe-land

For those who are interested in origins, a Coinbase sponsored protocol. With Stripe moving into the space heavily and looking to lock things up in "Stripe-land", I think having an open protocol is great.

kreetx 1y ago
It's not the shape of the API payload that is the problem, is it? Few banks have a REST API for payments is the issue IMO.
- aeon_ai 1y ago
  The nature of the transaction itself is fundamentally different in a paygated/trustless API request. This is different from an API schema of a /payments/ endpoint being segregated from the actual resource that is being paid for. In this model, the payment is the cost of entry for the resource request itself. It's not as directly applicable to all payment scenarios, but enables a new class of transaction that is effectively pay-per-request. It's worth noting that this protocol is primarily supported by Coinbase today -- You'd be using USDC on the Base network (Layer 2 on top of Ethereum). However, the protocol itself is opening meaning anyone can self-host the same mechanics on any network, with any token/crypto asset.
- subscribed 1y ago
  There are modern banks-connected (including PBs) finance firms that offer modern protocols and can facilitate payments quickly and nicely (offering both custodial And non-custodial services). I support one of the similar projects in my organisation and I can't wait for golive.
- Qworg 1y ago
  FIS is just waiting for them to pay $250k/enabled API call to make it happen...
cornholio 1y ago
A truly open payment protocol should handle any currency (not force you to adopt crypto coins) and would leave it to the merchant and buyer to agree on their settlement method or intermediary, the cancelation and dispute policy etc. It's entirely possible then that some options would be available, for example in SEPA, that offer instant and irreversible settlement at zero cost.
- __erik 1y ago
  (x402 author here) Thats actually exactly what the intention with x402 is. Merchants express to the buyer multiple ways that they accept payment and the buyer chooses the one they prefer. As of right now stablecoins on various crypto rails are the major form (largely because they're the easiest to start with from a development standpoint), but as Cloudflare indicated in their blogpost, they're proposing a scheme that uses deferred payment via credit card or ACH https://blog.cloudflare.com/x402/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/x402/.
  - lucasverra 1y ago
    Thanks for stopping by.
  - contingencies 1y ago
    Hi Erik. Frankly, I wonder if this is an elaborate joke since there are some serious concerns in terms of CVP ("wait two seconds and retry"), in terms of gatekeeping potential nobody will sleepwalk in to ("we solve two the second wait with our CoinbaseCoin, get an enterprise subscription!"), or in terms of the inherent lack of openness in HTTP these days (client/server, HTTPS identity chains, DNS, gatekeepers like CloudFlare). For thoughts on a more open protocol without these drawbacks see https://raw.githubusercontent.com/globalcitizen/ifex-protocol/refs/heads/master/draft-ifex-00.txt https://raw.githubusercontent.com/globalcitizen/ifex-protoco... Sincerely, architect of a predecessor exchange (founder asked me not to continue work on open protocols).
- immibis 1y ago
  How would you make it open and decentralized without crypto? I mean, you say it's only open if it supports all currencies, but I say it's only open if it supports all users and use cases, and that's a thing that non-crypto currencies don't do (except for Liberty Reserve, which got shut down by the government for precisely this reason). Like, it's not really open if they have the option to require you to have a Wells Fargo account. We're not falling for the HTTP Cloudflare-great-firewall trick again, I hope. And for crypto payments they already don't need this because they can use the de-facto-standard Metamask API, at least for Ethereum-compatible blockchains.
egorfine 1y ago
Given that this protocol is Coinbase sponsored, you can be sure that the whole KYC/AML bullshit is going to be applied to every transaction. Want to read a paid message? Please upload your recent utility bill and confirm your identity with a video call. Sorry, you are not a US citizen with possession of the only subset of ID documents we support, reject.
- disgruntledphd2 1y ago
  > Given that this protocol is Coinbase sponsored, you can be sure that the whole KYC/AML bullshit is going to be applied to every transaction. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on perspective), this is the law basically everywhere where people have money. Like, you can avoid KYC/AML checks by using small operators, but as they get larger they'll have to introduce them or be regulated out of existence. If you really hate this (which is a valid position that I mostly don't share) then you should either run for elected office or sponsor/help other people to do this, as that's the only way to change the law. Fundamentally, as the internet ends up mapping to just society, it will be a reflection of society, much of which is driven by government regulation.
  - egorfine 1y ago
    Fortunately crypto exists. Fortunately, it is perfectly usable in real world while avoiding most of the KYC/AML crap.
    - disgruntledphd2 1y ago
      Honestly, probably not for long. Like, basically any Western headquartered crypto company will have (at least in theory) KYC/AML checks. And I'm not sure how you plan to get your crypto into fiat without hitting a bank/financial institution which will have these checks. Like, this is part of society (for some good and some bad reasons, like a lot of other things).
      - egorfine 1y ago

kreetx 1y ago

It's not the shape of the API payload that is the problem, is it? Few banks have a REST API for payments is the issue IMO.

aeon_ai 1y ago
The nature of the transaction itself is fundamentally different in a paygated/trustless API request. This is different from an API schema of a /payments/ endpoint being segregated from the actual resource that is being paid for. In this model, the payment is the cost of entry for the resource request itself. It's not as directly applicable to all payment scenarios, but enables a new class of transaction that is effectively pay-per-request. It's worth noting that this protocol is primarily supported by Coinbase today -- You'd be using USDC on the Base network (Layer 2 on top of Ethereum). However, the protocol itself is opening meaning anyone can self-host the same mechanics on any network, with any token/crypto asset.
subscribed 1y ago
There are modern banks-connected (including PBs) finance firms that offer modern protocols and can facilitate payments quickly and nicely (offering both custodial And non-custodial services). I support one of the similar projects in my organisation and I can't wait for golive.
Qworg 1y ago
FIS is just waiting for them to pay $250k/enabled API call to make it happen...

cornholio 1y ago

A truly open payment protocol should handle any currency (not force you to adopt crypto coins) and would leave it to the merchant and buyer to agree on their settlement method or intermediary, the cancelation and dispute policy etc. It's entirely possible then that some options would be available, for example in SEPA, that offer instant and irreversible settlement at zero cost.

__erik 1y ago
(x402 author here) Thats actually exactly what the intention with x402 is. Merchants express to the buyer multiple ways that they accept payment and the buyer chooses the one they prefer. As of right now stablecoins on various crypto rails are the major form (largely because they're the easiest to start with from a development standpoint), but as Cloudflare indicated in their blogpost, they're proposing a scheme that uses deferred payment via credit card or ACH https://blog.cloudflare.com/x402/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/x402/.
- lucasverra 1y ago
  Thanks for stopping by.
- contingencies 1y ago
  Hi Erik. Frankly, I wonder if this is an elaborate joke since there are some serious concerns in terms of CVP ("wait two seconds and retry"), in terms of gatekeeping potential nobody will sleepwalk in to ("we solve two the second wait with our CoinbaseCoin, get an enterprise subscription!"), or in terms of the inherent lack of openness in HTTP these days (client/server, HTTPS identity chains, DNS, gatekeepers like CloudFlare). For thoughts on a more open protocol without these drawbacks see https://raw.githubusercontent.com/globalcitizen/ifex-protocol/refs/heads/master/draft-ifex-00.txt https://raw.githubusercontent.com/globalcitizen/ifex-protoco... Sincerely, architect of a predecessor exchange (founder asked me not to continue work on open protocols).
immibis 1y ago
How would you make it open and decentralized without crypto? I mean, you say it's only open if it supports all currencies, but I say it's only open if it supports all users and use cases, and that's a thing that non-crypto currencies don't do (except for Liberty Reserve, which got shut down by the government for precisely this reason). Like, it's not really open if they have the option to require you to have a Wells Fargo account. We're not falling for the HTTP Cloudflare-great-firewall trick again, I hope. And for crypto payments they already don't need this because they can use the de-facto-standard Metamask API, at least for Ethereum-compatible blockchains.

egorfine 1y ago

Given that this protocol is Coinbase sponsored, you can be sure that the whole KYC/AML bullshit is going to be applied to every transaction. Want to read a paid message? Please upload your recent utility bill and confirm your identity with a video call. Sorry, you are not a US citizen with possession of the only subset of ID documents we support, reject.

disgruntledphd2 1y ago
> Given that this protocol is Coinbase sponsored, you can be sure that the whole KYC/AML bullshit is going to be applied to every transaction. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on perspective), this is the law basically everywhere where people have money. Like, you can avoid KYC/AML checks by using small operators, but as they get larger they'll have to introduce them or be regulated out of existence. If you really hate this (which is a valid position that I mostly don't share) then you should either run for elected office or sponsor/help other people to do this, as that's the only way to change the law. Fundamentally, as the internet ends up mapping to just society, it will be a reflection of society, much of which is driven by government regulation.
- egorfine 1y ago
  Fortunately crypto exists. Fortunately, it is perfectly usable in real world while avoiding most of the KYC/AML crap.
  - disgruntledphd2 1y ago
    Honestly, probably not for long. Like, basically any Western headquartered crypto company will have (at least in theory) KYC/AML checks. And I'm not sure how you plan to get your crypto into fiat without hitting a bank/financial institution which will have these checks. Like, this is part of society (for some good and some bad reasons, like a lot of other things).
    - egorfine 1y ago