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I don't think you need to run any experiment. Being married or not is just signing a paper. What matters is if the couple live together and in harmony. You can

I don't think you need to run any experiment. Being married or not is just signing a paper. What matters is if the couple live together and in harmony. You can do so without being married and having children, and it's everyday more common. That's why I'm saying you have cause and effect in the wrong order: children issues are tied to one or both parents not caring about them, and a symptom of that was having children before marriage, when marriage was "the only way" to a family. Nowadays things are different, and you can totally be a functional family without signing any contract on paper.

tonyhart7 1y ago
"Nowadays things are different" but is the modern way better??? or people just don't want to be held accountable if things go south in traditional way????
- fuzzfactor 1y ago
  Not my downvote but I do usually see things going south in a traditional way more as a consequence of tradition itself of some kind, overcoming the better judgement it would have required to avoid such a fate.
  - tonyhart7 1y ago
    but you can apply the same thing to modern way, both are have cons here
    - fuzzfactor 1y ago
      Right. Modern ways can easily be worse with effects never before contemplated.
flanked-evergl 1y ago
> Being married or not is just signing a paper. If we ignore almost all of human history save for the past 50 years, then yes. If we redefine marriage to not mean what most humans that have ever used the word meant by it, then yes. But why would we do these things? If you call all relations between two human beings marriage, you gain nothing, you just lose a word. Marriage is a covenant between two people, a man and a woman, with God, and incidentally, this covenant, not a piece of paper, it's also a precondition for two people to live together and in harmony. It's a commitment by both people to focus not on themselves, but on the family unit and the wellbeing of that family unit. > You can do so without being married and having children, and it's everyday more common. Children of married parents still have better outcomes, and the lower income people are, the bigger the advantage of having married parents are.
- malnourish 1y ago
  I'm married to my wife. We lived together happily for more than a decade before we married. We are childless atheists in a neighborhood of other childless, atheist, married couples, some of whom have been together almost as long as my wife and I have been alive. By your definition, are we all unmarried or living in disharmony?
  - flanked-evergl 1y ago
    > By your definition, are we all unmarried or living in disharmony? If we consider what the word meant up until about 50 years ago, then yes. If we consider the new definition, of "you signed a piece of paper given to you by the government, and gave it back to the government". Then, sure, you are married. I'm not trying to insult you or denigrate you, but again, if we use the word marriage for all relations between two human beings, then we gain nothing, we just lose a word.
    - james_marks 1y ago
      No one is suggesting marriage means "all relations between two human beings". Only that there are many ways to demonstrate and be committed to a person. The legal recognization by a church or government is one version, but not the key ingredient.
      - flanked-evergl 1y ago
        > Only that there are many ways to demonstrate and be committed to a person. And we don't need to use the word marriage for all of them. > The legal recognization by a church or government is one version, but not the key ingredient. The covenant with god has been a key ingredient for centuries.
        jacquesm 1y ago
        Can you please stop flaunting your ignorant and limited worldview all over this thread? You've insulted a good 30% of humanity by now and are on track to insult the remainder, it's getting a little hard on the eyes and there are only so many links of yours that I'm prepared to flag.
ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
Did Kurt Russell and Goldie Hawn ever get married? I'd think they would be the poster children for the two-week marriages that Hollywood is notorious for, but they aren't. Even in the most barren wastelands, flowers can grow.
carlosjobim 1y ago
> What matters is if the couple live together and in harmony. If a couple lives together in harmony and have children together, they are married.

tonyhart7 1y ago

"Nowadays things are different" but is the modern way better??? or people just don't want to be held accountable if things go south in traditional way????

fuzzfactor 1y ago
Not my downvote but I do usually see things going south in a traditional way more as a consequence of tradition itself of some kind, overcoming the better judgement it would have required to avoid such a fate.
- tonyhart7 1y ago
  but you can apply the same thing to modern way, both are have cons here
  - fuzzfactor 1y ago
    Right. Modern ways can easily be worse with effects never before contemplated.

flanked-evergl 1y ago

> Being married or not is just signing a paper. If we ignore almost all of human history save for the past 50 years, then yes. If we redefine marriage to not mean what most humans that have ever used the word meant by it, then yes. But why would we do these things? If you call all relations between two human beings marriage, you gain nothing, you just lose a word. Marriage is a covenant between two people, a man and a woman, with God, and incidentally, this covenant, not a piece of paper, it's also a precondition for two people to live together and in harmony. It's a commitment by both people to focus not on themselves, but on the family unit and the wellbeing of that family unit. > You can do so without being married and having children, and it's everyday more common. Children of married parents still have better outcomes, and the lower income people are, the bigger the advantage of having married parents are.

malnourish 1y ago
I'm married to my wife. We lived together happily for more than a decade before we married. We are childless atheists in a neighborhood of other childless, atheist, married couples, some of whom have been together almost as long as my wife and I have been alive. By your definition, are we all unmarried or living in disharmony?
- flanked-evergl 1y ago
  > By your definition, are we all unmarried or living in disharmony? If we consider what the word meant up until about 50 years ago, then yes. If we consider the new definition, of "you signed a piece of paper given to you by the government, and gave it back to the government". Then, sure, you are married. I'm not trying to insult you or denigrate you, but again, if we use the word marriage for all relations between two human beings, then we gain nothing, we just lose a word.
  - james_marks 1y ago
    No one is suggesting marriage means "all relations between two human beings". Only that there are many ways to demonstrate and be committed to a person. The legal recognization by a church or government is one version, but not the key ingredient.
    - flanked-evergl 1y ago
      > Only that there are many ways to demonstrate and be committed to a person. And we don't need to use the word marriage for all of them. > The legal recognization by a church or government is one version, but not the key ingredient. The covenant with god has been a key ingredient for centuries.
      - jacquesm 1y ago
        Can you please stop flaunting your ignorant and limited worldview all over this thread? You've insulted a good 30% of humanity by now and are on track to insult the remainder, it's getting a little hard on the eyes and there are only so many links of yours that I'm prepared to flag.

ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago

Did Kurt Russell and Goldie Hawn ever get married? I'd think they would be the poster children for the two-week marriages that Hollywood is notorious for, but they aren't. Even in the most barren wastelands, flowers can grow.

carlosjobim 1y ago

> What matters is if the couple live together and in harmony. If a couple lives together in harmony and have children together, they are married.