5 ms·

While I don't deny that suspend is an issue on Linux I've just never seen this as a major problem? I simply turn off my laptop and turn it on when I need it - b

by worble 1y ago

While I don't deny that suspend is an issue on Linux I've just never seen this as a major problem? I simply turn off my laptop and turn it on when I need it - boot times are less than a minute so it really isn't a issue for me, just flick the power switch, wait for a bit then I'm good to go.

GZGavinZhao 1y ago
There are often browser tabs and other documents windows I would like to keep openers and I want to jump back to exactly where I left off as soon as possible.
- worble 1y ago
  Let me preface this reply with that I'm not trying to preach or tell you how to live your digital life - everyone is different and if you have setup that works for you then great, keep on trucking. That said, I worked the same way many years ago, with browser tabs and desktop sessions that were precious and I didn't want to drop them. But what I ended up realizing was that the stress of losing that state due to random power failures or software bugs was too much. I found it far better for my sanity and actual productivity to instead make sure I had a sane note taking system, where I could track what was actually important to me. It was a great relief to my mental state and general stress to allow myself to shut down all processes and start clean every day.
  - Implicated 1y ago
    While I understand your perspective here - let me counter with mine. I have the same issue where I maintain a 'state' that I'd prefer to maintain but my interest in maintaining it does have this anxiety you describe. It's just a huge waste of time to get it all back. I see it no different than being in the middle of a heavy coding/mental task and being interrupted to the point that you have to 'start over' in the sense of getting all that context back in the right places. Sure, I _could_ neatly close everything out and have a pristine perfect work/desktop environment. But, personally, when I see the work/desk environment of someone and it's absolutely pristine all I can think about is how they're spending energy to maintain that. To give another example - in my workshop (woodworking), if I'm in the middle of something and need to take a break/leave the shop... I'm not putting _anything_ away. I turn off the lights and walk out. That way when I return I don't have to set everything back up. Now - when I finish something, then I go through and clean up and organize and get the state freshened up. Same thing with my laptop/computer. Zero anxiety about it all - it's not about losing anything but time. And that's what's most important.
  - trinsic2 1y ago
    When I moved to Obsidian, I created a great note taking system that I use to track all my research. I didn't realize until you said this that I don't need to have my applications open any more because of this. Wow. Out of sight, out of mind I guess.
fizwidget 1y ago
“Less than a minute” is going to feel horribly slow to people that are used to instant-resume and not having to think about shutdown vs. sleep. You might be okay with it, but I suspect most consumers today won’t be.
- Implicated 1y ago
  This, so much. I read that comment and immediately recoiled at the idea of waiting "less than a minute" to be able to do anything. I'd estimate that 1/3 of the time I even open my laptop, I'm done with what I needed in less time than that boot up sequence takes and have closed it and moved on to something else. So often I just pop it open, do/check something and close it within seconds. I go _months_ without rebooting/proper shut downs. And this is on a MacOS install that I've migrated from one Macbook to another for 5 macbooks now O.O
  - anonzzzies 1y ago
    ...recoiled... Some people go to work, switch on their computer and turn it off when they leave. I would say most in the world do that. Sure they don't know the diff between clapping their macbook shut or switching something off, but 1 minute does not make people 'recoil'. Very strange.
    - Implicated 1y ago
      Totally understandable. You're right that those people are highly unlikely to really care between 2 seconds to being functional and 60 seconds. They're at the coffee machine anyway. I've been obsessed with building things since I got my first lincoln logs set. I don't "clock out". There's no work computer and life computer, or even more foreign to me, no computer when not at work. I take my laptop nearly everywhere with me and have been known to pull over into the nearest gas station or any parking lot, pull it out and immediately write some code or make some notes due to something I'd just then had some breakthrough or idea about. There's no way I'm doing that if it takes a full minute to boot up and I'm there looking at a fresh rebooted OS. But if I can open it, touch my finger to the fingerprint reader and _immediately_ be productive? Happens all the time. Hell, I'll walk across the room and open my laptop when my phone is in my pocket because it's just easier to use and it's immediately functional. Different strokes for different folks, but I'd venture to bet that my experience mimics that of many others.
heavyset_go 1y ago
S3 sleep is a solved problem and security issues around it are solved by Secure Boot and memory and disk encryption. The issue is that firmware vendors disable S3 sleep in favor of s0ix/Modern Standby instead, which just puts hardware into low power states instead of stopping them entirely. This will inherently drain more power over time than just keeping memory powered in S3 sleep. Modern Standby requires heavy integration with the OS to be power efficient. Turns out that takes a lot of reverse engineering because vendors will not release documentation or tune the kernel for their firmware.
- mjrpes 1y ago
  Not just laptops but affects computers too. I have a brand-new Mini PC with Windows 11 and when you turn it "off" it continues to pull 6-10 watts. Not a lot but still over a year if you were to only used it minimally that's 52-83kwh or around $25-45/year at PG&E rates. Vendors are removing support for classic standby/hibernate so the only way to go to <1 watt is to pull the plug. It shouldn't be this way.
  - trinsic2 1y ago
    Anybody know why their so hell bent on removing S3?
    - yehat 1y ago
      My thinking is that Microsoft is basically the most influential in that, as they badly want to do their "stuff" while the laptop is not in use. Their "stuff" requires network connectivity and seemingly they believe they can do updates, or any other "optimizations" when the laptop is in "modern sleep" mode.
      - PhilipRoman 1y ago
        I'm surprised this required implementing a whole new sleep mode. Since it seems to be mostly used for async background tasks, why not configure the RTC to wake the laptop every hour or so (I think every laptop in existence already supports suspend with timeout) and go back to suspend if no tasks need to be done?
lukeschlather 1y ago
My main use for laptops is as a notepad. If it takes a minute to start when I need it it's vastly inferior to a sheet of paper. If it can't remember what page I was on that's doubly so. Windows works more or less like a sheet of paper (though automatic reboots to apply security updates are a point in favor of paper that has no such issues.) And I often use my laptop for things where seconds matter. I've got things on the stove that could burn, I may not have 5 seconds to spare locating the next step in the recipe.
- kokada 1y ago
  For those use cases that I love my Chromebook. Underpowered, yes, but also it can basically sleep forever and also wakes up from sleep fast. Even if I need to turn it on if it is powered off it takes just a few seconds to boot.

by worble 1y ago

GZGavinZhao 1y ago

There are often browser tabs and other documents windows I would like to keep openers and I want to jump back to exactly where I left off as soon as possible.

worble 1y ago
Let me preface this reply with that I'm not trying to preach or tell you how to live your digital life - everyone is different and if you have setup that works for you then great, keep on trucking. That said, I worked the same way many years ago, with browser tabs and desktop sessions that were precious and I didn't want to drop them. But what I ended up realizing was that the stress of losing that state due to random power failures or software bugs was too much. I found it far better for my sanity and actual productivity to instead make sure I had a sane note taking system, where I could track what was actually important to me. It was a great relief to my mental state and general stress to allow myself to shut down all processes and start clean every day.
- Implicated 1y ago
  While I understand your perspective here - let me counter with mine. I have the same issue where I maintain a 'state' that I'd prefer to maintain but my interest in maintaining it does have this anxiety you describe. It's just a huge waste of time to get it all back. I see it no different than being in the middle of a heavy coding/mental task and being interrupted to the point that you have to 'start over' in the sense of getting all that context back in the right places. Sure, I _could_ neatly close everything out and have a pristine perfect work/desktop environment. But, personally, when I see the work/desk environment of someone and it's absolutely pristine all I can think about is how they're spending energy to maintain that. To give another example - in my workshop (woodworking), if I'm in the middle of something and need to take a break/leave the shop... I'm not putting _anything_ away. I turn off the lights and walk out. That way when I return I don't have to set everything back up. Now - when I finish something, then I go through and clean up and organize and get the state freshened up. Same thing with my laptop/computer. Zero anxiety about it all - it's not about losing anything but time. And that's what's most important.
- trinsic2 1y ago
  When I moved to Obsidian, I created a great note taking system that I use to track all my research. I didn't realize until you said this that I don't need to have my applications open any more because of this. Wow. Out of sight, out of mind I guess.

fizwidget 1y ago

“Less than a minute” is going to feel horribly slow to people that are used to instant-resume and not having to think about shutdown vs. sleep. You might be okay with it, but I suspect most consumers today won’t be.

Implicated 1y ago
This, so much. I read that comment and immediately recoiled at the idea of waiting "less than a minute" to be able to do anything. I'd estimate that 1/3 of the time I even open my laptop, I'm done with what I needed in less time than that boot up sequence takes and have closed it and moved on to something else. So often I just pop it open, do/check something and close it within seconds. I go _months_ without rebooting/proper shut downs. And this is on a MacOS install that I've migrated from one Macbook to another for 5 macbooks now O.O
- anonzzzies 1y ago
  ...recoiled... Some people go to work, switch on their computer and turn it off when they leave. I would say most in the world do that. Sure they don't know the diff between clapping their macbook shut or switching something off, but 1 minute does not make people 'recoil'. Very strange.
  - Implicated 1y ago
    Totally understandable. You're right that those people are highly unlikely to really care between 2 seconds to being functional and 60 seconds. They're at the coffee machine anyway. I've been obsessed with building things since I got my first lincoln logs set. I don't "clock out". There's no work computer and life computer, or even more foreign to me, no computer when not at work. I take my laptop nearly everywhere with me and have been known to pull over into the nearest gas station or any parking lot, pull it out and immediately write some code or make some notes due to something I'd just then had some breakthrough or idea about. There's no way I'm doing that if it takes a full minute to boot up and I'm there looking at a fresh rebooted OS. But if I can open it, touch my finger to the fingerprint reader and _immediately_ be productive? Happens all the time. Hell, I'll walk across the room and open my laptop when my phone is in my pocket because it's just easier to use and it's immediately functional. Different strokes for different folks, but I'd venture to bet that my experience mimics that of many others.

heavyset_go 1y ago

S3 sleep is a solved problem and security issues around it are solved by Secure Boot and memory and disk encryption. The issue is that firmware vendors disable S3 sleep in favor of s0ix/Modern Standby instead, which just puts hardware into low power states instead of stopping them entirely. This will inherently drain more power over time than just keeping memory powered in S3 sleep. Modern Standby requires heavy integration with the OS to be power efficient. Turns out that takes a lot of reverse engineering because vendors will not release documentation or tune the kernel for their firmware.

mjrpes 1y ago
Not just laptops but affects computers too. I have a brand-new Mini PC with Windows 11 and when you turn it "off" it continues to pull 6-10 watts. Not a lot but still over a year if you were to only used it minimally that's 52-83kwh or around $25-45/year at PG&E rates. Vendors are removing support for classic standby/hibernate so the only way to go to <1 watt is to pull the plug. It shouldn't be this way.
- trinsic2 1y ago
  Anybody know why their so hell bent on removing S3?
  - yehat 1y ago
    My thinking is that Microsoft is basically the most influential in that, as they badly want to do their "stuff" while the laptop is not in use. Their "stuff" requires network connectivity and seemingly they believe they can do updates, or any other "optimizations" when the laptop is in "modern sleep" mode.
    - PhilipRoman 1y ago
      I'm surprised this required implementing a whole new sleep mode. Since it seems to be mostly used for async background tasks, why not configure the RTC to wake the laptop every hour or so (I think every laptop in existence already supports suspend with timeout) and go back to suspend if no tasks need to be done?

lukeschlather 1y ago

My main use for laptops is as a notepad. If it takes a minute to start when I need it it's vastly inferior to a sheet of paper. If it can't remember what page I was on that's doubly so. Windows works more or less like a sheet of paper (though automatic reboots to apply security updates are a point in favor of paper that has no such issues.) And I often use my laptop for things where seconds matter. I've got things on the stove that could burn, I may not have 5 seconds to spare locating the next step in the recipe.

kokada 1y ago
For those use cases that I love my Chromebook. Underpowered, yes, but also it can basically sleep forever and also wakes up from sleep fast. Even if I need to turn it on if it is powered off it takes just a few seconds to boot.