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> I was horrified by what I saw; just how broken the infrastructure was, how poor and destitute the people were. Yet they manage to have better healthcare over

by Qem 1y ago

> I was horrified by what I saw; just how broken the infrastructure was, how poor and destitute the people were. Yet they manage to have better healthcare overall.

PaulHoule 1y ago
Compared to many places in Latin America, yes, but that’s not a high standard.
- cogman10 1y ago
  Compared to the US. While not uncontested (they are accused of falsifying data), cuba posts better infant mortality rates. A lot of the medical issues in Cuba aren't related to the healthcare system but rather to trade embargos. It's a small miracle they do as well as they do given the constraints of being an island nation. The reason for their success on a shoestring budget is administrative competence. They have a large number of clinics (rather than big hospital complexes) and education in medicine starts at those clinics. Future doctors work and are educated in medicine moving up into specialties. It's a little like making everyone that wants to practice medicine start as a orderly in a family medicine clinic. IMO, this is superior to the US system of requiring several years of schooling before ever interacting with patients. And if you know an old nurse, you'll know they often do know a lot more than new doctors.
  - charlescearl 1y ago
    This amidst an unrelenting united states “embargo” - in another world this embargo would be called the crime against humanity that it is. I often think of this Logic article on Cuban information retrieval design. “ Informatics of the Oppressed”, by Rodrigo Ochigame https://logicmag.io/care/informatics-of-the-oppressed/ https://logicmag.io/care/informatics-of-the-oppressed/
    - nradov 1y ago
      I don't think you understand what an embargo is. The USA isn't blockading Cuba; they're free to trade with other countries like Venezuela or whatever. International trade requires the consent of both parties, and there's no moral or legal obligation to trade with a hostile foreign power (or allow our financial systems to be used to facilitate such trade). The embargo would likely end soon if the Cuban government takes basic, simple steps like introducing open multiparty democracy, free market capitalism, and freedom for political prisoners. These steps would obviously benefit all Cubans so there's no possible reason to delay making those changes regardless of their impact on international trade.
      - cogman10 1y ago
        The US enforces the embargo by cutting trade with any country doing trade with Cuba. It's not just a simple embargo between the US and Cuba, it's one that forces a country/company to make the decision "trade with Cuba or trade with the US".
        nradov 1y ago
        Yes, exactly. Countries are free to make that choice. They can't have their cake and eat it, too.
        Tadpole9181 1y ago
        > The US isn't blockading Cuba That's what you said, but it is a just a coy semantic game by any real interpretation. The US took extra measures and went out of there way to strong arm any potential trade partners. No sane or responsible nation would give up trade with the US and major parts of it's hemisphere of influence (Europe, Japan, Korea, etc) to access an island with nothing to offer in an inconvenient place. The US, out of spite, demolished the Cuban economy and then spent decades beating the corpse for good measure long after the fight was over or justified. Last I checked, they basically only got access to meaningful trade from Venezuela and China for a few decades, right?
- southernplaces7 1y ago
  Written by someone who apparently doesn't know a thing about Latin American healthcare and has no experience of it. As someone who lives in a major Latin American country and has for many years, and has spent time in several others, I can tell you that both the public and private healthcare standards are very good for the most part, and standards are a lot higher than whatever caricature idea of some banana republic jungle hospital you seem to have. Mexico and Brazil in particular have hospitals that are at least as good as most American counterparts would be.
pharos92 1y ago
That's a horrific price to pay for the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. Personally I look to Scandinavia for the ideal model. High economic freedom & mobile capital, excellent healthcare & public services, high degree of social rights & liberties.
- nradov 1y ago
  The Scandinavian economic model has certain positives but it's hardly ideal. Collapsing population demographics, high immigration rates, and the need to increase military spending are creating a lot of pressure. But more importantly there is a severe lack of economic dynamism: in terms of major technology companies they basically have Spotify, Ericsson, and that's it. So long term they risk being left behind by the world economy, and reduced to the status of vassal states.
mensetmanusman 1y ago
How do you define better? Cost? The U.S. leads in advanced diagnostics (MRI, CT scans), surgical techniques, pharmaceuticals, and access to the latest therapies. (Cuban hospitals often lack basic supplies, equipment, and medications.) Care? Patients in Cuba often face rationing and shortages of drugs, even common antibiotics or painkillers. The U.S. has issues with affordability but generally ensures availability once in the system. Doctors? Cuba trains many doctors, but the government sends them abroad for revenue, leaving gaps in domestic care. Advanced treatments? The U.S. is the global leader in pharmaceutical development, medical devices, and innovation. “better” might imply higher quality of care and outcomes for complex conditions, where the U.S. clearly outperforms.
southernplaces7 1y ago
>Yet they manage to have better healthcare overall. Really? You've got the numbers and overall view to know this, as opposed to simply the stats from a famously mendacious, repressive one-party regime that has been repressing all kinds of access to information against even its own people for decades?
- Qem 1y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicko https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicko
  - southernplaces7 1y ago
    This is your response? That the U.S healthcare system is full of problems no doubt, but you think referencing a Michael Moore documentary is a case of using good data? Hilarious.

by Qem 1y ago

> I was horrified by what I saw; just how broken the infrastructure was, how poor and destitute the people were. Yet they manage to have better healthcare overall.

PaulHoule 1y ago

Compared to many places in Latin America, yes, but that’s not a high standard.

cogman10 1y ago
Compared to the US. While not uncontested (they are accused of falsifying data), cuba posts better infant mortality rates. A lot of the medical issues in Cuba aren't related to the healthcare system but rather to trade embargos. It's a small miracle they do as well as they do given the constraints of being an island nation. The reason for their success on a shoestring budget is administrative competence. They have a large number of clinics (rather than big hospital complexes) and education in medicine starts at those clinics. Future doctors work and are educated in medicine moving up into specialties. It's a little like making everyone that wants to practice medicine start as a orderly in a family medicine clinic. IMO, this is superior to the US system of requiring several years of schooling before ever interacting with patients. And if you know an old nurse, you'll know they often do know a lot more than new doctors.
- charlescearl 1y ago
  This amidst an unrelenting united states “embargo” - in another world this embargo would be called the crime against humanity that it is. I often think of this Logic article on Cuban information retrieval design. “ Informatics of the Oppressed”, by Rodrigo Ochigame https://logicmag.io/care/informatics-of-the-oppressed/ https://logicmag.io/care/informatics-of-the-oppressed/
  - nradov 1y ago
    I don't think you understand what an embargo is. The USA isn't blockading Cuba; they're free to trade with other countries like Venezuela or whatever. International trade requires the consent of both parties, and there's no moral or legal obligation to trade with a hostile foreign power (or allow our financial systems to be used to facilitate such trade). The embargo would likely end soon if the Cuban government takes basic, simple steps like introducing open multiparty democracy, free market capitalism, and freedom for political prisoners. These steps would obviously benefit all Cubans so there's no possible reason to delay making those changes regardless of their impact on international trade.
    - cogman10 1y ago
      The US enforces the embargo by cutting trade with any country doing trade with Cuba. It's not just a simple embargo between the US and Cuba, it's one that forces a country/company to make the decision "trade with Cuba or trade with the US".
      - nradov 1y ago
        Yes, exactly. Countries are free to make that choice. They can't have their cake and eat it, too.
        Tadpole9181 1y ago
        > The US isn't blockading Cuba That's what you said, but it is a just a coy semantic game by any real interpretation. The US took extra measures and went out of there way to strong arm any potential trade partners. No sane or responsible nation would give up trade with the US and major parts of it's hemisphere of influence (Europe, Japan, Korea, etc) to access an island with nothing to offer in an inconvenient place. The US, out of spite, demolished the Cuban economy and then spent decades beating the corpse for good measure long after the fight was over or justified. Last I checked, they basically only got access to meaningful trade from Venezuela and China for a few decades, right?
southernplaces7 1y ago
Written by someone who apparently doesn't know a thing about Latin American healthcare and has no experience of it. As someone who lives in a major Latin American country and has for many years, and has spent time in several others, I can tell you that both the public and private healthcare standards are very good for the most part, and standards are a lot higher than whatever caricature idea of some banana republic jungle hospital you seem to have. Mexico and Brazil in particular have hospitals that are at least as good as most American counterparts would be.

pharos92 1y ago

That's a horrific price to pay for the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. Personally I look to Scandinavia for the ideal model. High economic freedom & mobile capital, excellent healthcare & public services, high degree of social rights & liberties.

nradov 1y ago
The Scandinavian economic model has certain positives but it's hardly ideal. Collapsing population demographics, high immigration rates, and the need to increase military spending are creating a lot of pressure. But more importantly there is a severe lack of economic dynamism: in terms of major technology companies they basically have Spotify, Ericsson, and that's it. So long term they risk being left behind by the world economy, and reduced to the status of vassal states.

mensetmanusman 1y ago

How do you define better? Cost? The U.S. leads in advanced diagnostics (MRI, CT scans), surgical techniques, pharmaceuticals, and access to the latest therapies. (Cuban hospitals often lack basic supplies, equipment, and medications.) Care? Patients in Cuba often face rationing and shortages of drugs, even common antibiotics or painkillers. The U.S. has issues with affordability but generally ensures availability once in the system. Doctors? Cuba trains many doctors, but the government sends them abroad for revenue, leaving gaps in domestic care. Advanced treatments? The U.S. is the global leader in pharmaceutical development, medical devices, and innovation. “better” might imply higher quality of care and outcomes for complex conditions, where the U.S. clearly outperforms.

southernplaces7 1y ago

>Yet they manage to have better healthcare overall. Really? You've got the numbers and overall view to know this, as opposed to simply the stats from a famously mendacious, repressive one-party regime that has been repressing all kinds of access to information against even its own people for decades?

Qem 1y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicko https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicko
- southernplaces7 1y ago
  This is your response? That the U.S healthcare system is full of problems no doubt, but you think referencing a Michael Moore documentary is a case of using good data? Hilarious.