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As a Linux user I feel you. The Mac Desktop is vastly inferior to the Linux world (for power users) but the hardware is so, so good. For me it is about having

As a Linux user I feel you. The Mac Desktop is vastly inferior to the Linux world (for power users) but the hardware is so, so good. For me it is about having a completely silent setup. It is so, so hard to go back to noisy fans. I really hope Asahi Linux keep going so I can have the best of both worlds.

Aurornis 1y ago
> The Mac Desktop is vastly inferior to the Linux world I have to use Mac, Linux, and Windows desktops in my work. They all have their pros and cons, but I can’t say I’d ever argue that the Mac desktop experience is vastly inferior to the Linux desktop experience. Edit: Getting a lot of downvotes but most of the comments are about someone’s highly customized Linux desktop compared to completely vanilla Mac desktop. I’m referring to apples to apples comparison where they’re either some standard out of the box version or when customized with available tools and mods. Comparing your highly customized Linux desktop to a completely uncustomized Mac setup with no attempt at other tools or utilities isn’t an interesting comparison because it’s not apples to apples, it’s just a statement about your current preference.
- yauneyz 1y ago
  Depends how you configure it. If you like things like tiling window managers and keyboard driven computing, Linux is in a category of its own.
  - presbyterian 1y ago
    There are a dozen or more options for tiling systems and keyboard-driven computing on macOS. Personally, one of the reasons I use macOS over Linux is because I find it easier to create custom keyboard commands and shortcuts. It’s all doable on Linux, sure, but on macOS there are several apps that make it easy.
    - aeroevan 1y ago
      If you haven't used something like i3/sway/awesomewm/hyprland on the linux side you won't know what you're missing. While there are several apps to create custom keyboard commands, only yabai+skhd come close to what's available on linux, and it's not even that close tbh.
      - presbyterian 1y ago
        I’ve used i3 and awesomewm and bspwm etc etc. I’d be happy to never use them again!
- cardanome 1y ago
  Are you a gnome user? Linux Mint with Cinnamon is bliss. Or well anything else, you are absolutely spoiled for choice with Desktop Environments in Linux. There is the perfect one for everyone. At least if you use X11, wayland is still a turd. I found the Mac Desktop absolutely unusable for any development work as it comes out of the box. You need a metric ton of third-party extensions for simple stuff like proper alt-tab support or custom shortcuts. An configuration is supper limited. And it will get so much worse with the whole glasses ui thing.
  - dsego 1y ago
    > You are absolutely spoiled for choice with Desktop Environments in Linux. That is both a pro and a con. For someone offering tech support or writing documentation it's a pretty big negative.
  - jebarker 1y ago
    > as it comes out of the box This doesn’t seem like a fair way to evaluate MacOS given the effort involved in configuring a Linux installation
  - Aurornis 1y ago
    > Linux Mint with Cinnamon is bliss. This is one of my go-tos when I need a VM, so I’m familiar. > I found the Mac Desktop absolutely unusable for any development work as it comes out of the box. But why are we comparing vanilla macOS to an extreme customized Linux setup as if they’re the same thing? Why one set of rules for one platform but those criteria are suspended for Linux, where we get to assume some specific set of perfectly configured everything? This is the hyperbole that I can’t really take seriously. Calling it “absolutely unusable” just isn’t something I can take seriously. I understand that some people like to customize their environments to the Nth degree and can’t live without their personal set of customizations, but that’s personal preferences. Calling other platforms “absolutely unusable” or “vastly inferior” is just an exaggeration when millions of devs use them just fine.
    - cardanome 1y ago
      > But why are we comparing vanilla macOS to an extreme customized Linux setup as if they’re the same thing? Why one set of rules for one platform but those criteria are suspended for Linux, where we get to assume some specific set of perfectly configured everything? My Linux Mint installation is actually barely customized. It absolutely works out of the box. I disabled a few animations and selected a different theme and added like three extra shortcuts but that is it. Nothing that would take more than ten minutes. I was comparing the vanilla experience. And yes, I should have specified that I am talking about my needs. I totally believe that the Mac Desktop might be better for the average user but that is no me.
- coldpie 1y ago
  Man just give me a way to switch between only the two most recent windows using a keyboard shortcut (without requiring some janky 3rd party program). Windows-style alt-tab. It's not a big ask and would make the macOS experience go from "barely usable" to "perfectly fine."
  - WillAdams 1y ago
    Does Command tab not do this? It brings up a list of applications in most recently to least recently used order, so two apps switched to/from will constantly switch places.
    - zhivota 1y ago
      Not if the windows are both from the same program. Then it's a different keybind, CMD-~ which doesn't have the same priority order style as CMD-Tab. I get caught up on this constantly, to the point where I decided to stop using one Chrome window under my work profile, and one under my personal profile, just so I can have my personal browser under a different program so CMD-Tab works better.
      - WillAdams 1y ago
        Is that window priority order governed by the OS or the application? I don't recall the difficulty you mention happening with Safari.
      - baq 1y ago
        I actually use Edge for personal stuff on my work MacBook for this exact reason. The workflow simply isn’t possible otherwise.
    - coldpie 1y ago
      > It brings up a list of applications "Applications" is the problem. I want to switch between windows.
  - cschep 1y ago
    cmd-tab does this. what are we missing? cmd-tab, cmd-tab. terminal, browser. browser, terminal. has for years.
- dmm 1y ago
  On a Mac, you can switch between apps with Command-Tab or windows of the same app with Command-` but there's no way to cycle between all windows or bounce between to two most recently used windows. Maybe this used to make sense when apps were single purpose but I do basically everything in a web browser or a terminal so not being able to bounce between the previously selected window(of whatever kind), as I can with Alt-Tab on linux or windows, is frustrating. Also Command-` switches to the next window, not the previous one like I would expect. MacOS removed subpixel antialiasing, honestly for understandable reasons, making rendering on low-ppi displays blurry, but high-ppi displays are still super expensive. I got a 32" 4k monitor(~140ppi) at Costco for $250. A >200ppi display of the same size costs 20x that amount.
  - cosmic_cheese 1y ago
    For web apps, spinning them into “installed” apps (doable in both Chrome and Safari now) is the move. This unclogs your tab bar, gets rid of the pointless persistent browser chrome, and gives you the benefit of OS task management capabilities. You can add Shift to both Command-Tab and Command-` to move in the reverse direction.
    - boredtofears 1y ago
      Woah, I did not know about this installable web app feature - this is a game changer. Thanks for sharing.
    - nehal3m 1y ago
      Also I find the default Command-` to be unintuitive, especially on non-US keyboards (` is next to left Shift for me). I remapped Command-` to Option-Tab so you only have to move your thumb.
  - acc348 1y ago
    32" 6K monitor from ASUS costs $1400, 27" 5K Dahua monitor is $500, it's not $250, but we are slowly getting there ...
    - 1y ago
- dheera 1y ago
  The point is that Linux allows you to customize it to your liking, almost infinitely. There is almost nothing you cannot do. People are comparing them to vanilla Mac setups because Macs don't really let you have a non-vanilla experience.
- AceJohnny2 1y ago
  > I’m referring to apples to apples comparison where they’re either some standard out of the box version or when customized with available tools and mods. Comparing your highly customized Linux desktop to a completely uncustomized Mac setup with no attempt at other tools or utilities isn’t an interesting comparison because it’s not apples to apples, it’s just a statement about your current preference. Perhaps you missed the parent's "(for power users)"? So here's an apples-to-apples comparison: customizing Mac desktop for one's preferences compared to Linux. I've been on Mac for 10 years because of Work. Before that I was on Linux, using the AwesomeWM tiling window manager. I dearly miss AwesomeWM. I've tried most 3rd-party window managers for Mac, and nothing comes close to the snappiness and functionality of Linux's tiling managers like AwesomeWM. Nowadays I just use window-movers like Rectangle [1], and I feel handicapped. The simple fact of the matter is that Mac does not allow the level of customization that Linux inherently does. MacOS' UI hooks are through the Accessibility framework, and in my user experience, it's just a slower, jankier emulation of what a more deeply integrated WM can do. As a specific example, the author of DisplayMaid [2] has complained elsewhere on HN that macOS does not provide reliable identifiers for the displays, so they had to implement their own heuristics. Side-note: for a system so inherently dockable as macbooks, it's a tragedy that I have to rely on a 3rd-party app to re-position my windows for one of my 2 regular work setups. I'm sure Apple could implement the hooks for better WM customization, they've certainly done their few updates with Spaces and their own poor-man's tiling, but the years with no update to integration demonstrate that they consider the Accessibility hooks to be Good Enough. [1] https://rectangleapp.com https://rectangleapp.com [2] https://funk-isoft.com/display-maid.html https://funk-isoft.com/display-maid.html
  - aeroevan 1y ago
    yabai is as close as I've seen, but yeah nothing close to awesomewm or even something like sawywm
mschaef 1y ago
> The Mac Desktop is vastly inferior to the Linux world Asking out of curiosity, why is this? What's the functionality you miss on Mac?
- cardanome 1y ago
  Most of it is there but you need a crap-load of third party extension and some even cost money. Like proper alt-tab, better keyboard configuration, Finder is the worst file manager I have ever used, a classical task bar and so on. You can manage but the defaults are really bad for power users. Honestly Apple just needs to let me install a proper Desktop Environment like KDE on it. The unix base is decent, just give me more freedom.
  - wqaatwt 1y ago
    To be fair KDE is also pretty wonky out of the box (basic stuff like turning numlock on boot is unnecessarily buggy or confusing). you usually also need a bunch of extensions. And 50% of them are broken due to various if you try to use KDE builtin extension thing.
- pm215 1y ago
  The one I have always missed is proper focus-follows-mouse support. The mac desktop always feels really clunky without that when working with multiple windows.
  - voltaireodactyl 1y ago
    FWIW, this is now possible albeit with a third party app: https://github.com/sbmpost/AutoRaise https://github.com/sbmpost/AutoRaise
    - pm215 1y ago
      Proper focus-follows-mouse does not autoraise the window when it gives it focus. I see that that app does offer "don't raise the window" (which I think is an improvement from last time I was researching this some years back), but only under an "experimental feature" flag that relies on undocumented private macos APIs that might go away in any future macos version...
jsheard 1y ago
Desktop Macs do have fans so they're not completely silent, but if you were under the impression there aren't any then that reflects well on how good their tuning is. AFAIK the MacBook Air is the only passively cooled Mac.
- cardanome 1y ago
  I know that they have fans but I really can't hear them. Maaaybe when gaming but I would to have to really concentrate on that. And I am super sensitive to noise. It is so sad that apparently no one else bothers to tune their fans properly. It is such a killer feature for me.
  - WorldPeas 1y ago
    for real. the only brand that comes close are the chromeboxes, or passive industrial computers, though the speed there isn't flawless, or close to it.
didacusc 1y ago
Saying that the macOS desktop is vastly inferior to Linux desktops is absolutely nuts. I've tried to get my relatives on Linux desktops so many times, just for it to go completely wrong a couple of weeks after and having to reinstall Windows. It's just not made for average (or below-average) users, so I don't see how it can be VASTLY inferior to something as easy and polished as macOS.
- cardanome 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - jebarker 1y ago
    I do all my software development in remote clusters/supercomputers. I’d consider myself a power user. My laptop is for running a terminal, vscode, a browser and the various applications my company requires, e.g. Teams, Slack. So I want reliability, low configuration and maintenance overhead on my part and good battery life. Linux can’t compete on these fronts.
    - cardanome 1y ago
      All those pros you list have nothing to do with the desktop environment. Maybe low configuration but you can have that on Linux too. I totally agree that the hardware and the underlying Unix is decent. Audio on Mac is also way less of a hassle. I am not saying that a power user wouldn't have good reason to chose a Mac, just that the desktop is for me the weakest part of it compared to Linux.
    - trueismywork 1y ago
      I do the same and I prefer KDE much more than Mac OS X apart from battery part.
  - cosmic_cheese 1y ago
    It’s more subjective of a thing than many would like to admit. As someone who’s been working as a dev for a decade and writing code outside of work for twice that, one of the things keeping me away from Linux is that there simply isn’t a true Mac analogue DE.

Aurornis 1y ago

> The Mac Desktop is vastly inferior to the Linux world I have to use Mac, Linux, and Windows desktops in my work. They all have their pros and cons, but I can’t say I’d ever argue that the Mac desktop experience is vastly inferior to the Linux desktop experience. Edit: Getting a lot of downvotes but most of the comments are about someone’s highly customized Linux desktop compared to completely vanilla Mac desktop. I’m referring to apples to apples comparison where they’re either some standard out of the box version or when customized with available tools and mods. Comparing your highly customized Linux desktop to a completely uncustomized Mac setup with no attempt at other tools or utilities isn’t an interesting comparison because it’s not apples to apples, it’s just a statement about your current preference.

yauneyz 1y ago
Depends how you configure it. If you like things like tiling window managers and keyboard driven computing, Linux is in a category of its own.
- presbyterian 1y ago
  There are a dozen or more options for tiling systems and keyboard-driven computing on macOS. Personally, one of the reasons I use macOS over Linux is because I find it easier to create custom keyboard commands and shortcuts. It’s all doable on Linux, sure, but on macOS there are several apps that make it easy.
  - aeroevan 1y ago
    If you haven't used something like i3/sway/awesomewm/hyprland on the linux side you won't know what you're missing. While there are several apps to create custom keyboard commands, only yabai+skhd come close to what's available on linux, and it's not even that close tbh.
    - presbyterian 1y ago
      I’ve used i3 and awesomewm and bspwm etc etc. I’d be happy to never use them again!
cardanome 1y ago
Are you a gnome user? Linux Mint with Cinnamon is bliss. Or well anything else, you are absolutely spoiled for choice with Desktop Environments in Linux. There is the perfect one for everyone. At least if you use X11, wayland is still a turd. I found the Mac Desktop absolutely unusable for any development work as it comes out of the box. You need a metric ton of third-party extensions for simple stuff like proper alt-tab support or custom shortcuts. An configuration is supper limited. And it will get so much worse with the whole glasses ui thing.
- dsego 1y ago
  > You are absolutely spoiled for choice with Desktop Environments in Linux. That is both a pro and a con. For someone offering tech support or writing documentation it's a pretty big negative.
- jebarker 1y ago
  > as it comes out of the box This doesn’t seem like a fair way to evaluate MacOS given the effort involved in configuring a Linux installation
- Aurornis 1y ago
  > Linux Mint with Cinnamon is bliss. This is one of my go-tos when I need a VM, so I’m familiar. > I found the Mac Desktop absolutely unusable for any development work as it comes out of the box. But why are we comparing vanilla macOS to an extreme customized Linux setup as if they’re the same thing? Why one set of rules for one platform but those criteria are suspended for Linux, where we get to assume some specific set of perfectly configured everything? This is the hyperbole that I can’t really take seriously. Calling it “absolutely unusable” just isn’t something I can take seriously. I understand that some people like to customize their environments to the Nth degree and can’t live without their personal set of customizations, but that’s personal preferences. Calling other platforms “absolutely unusable” or “vastly inferior” is just an exaggeration when millions of devs use them just fine.
  - cardanome 1y ago
    > But why are we comparing vanilla macOS to an extreme customized Linux setup as if they’re the same thing? Why one set of rules for one platform but those criteria are suspended for Linux, where we get to assume some specific set of perfectly configured everything? My Linux Mint installation is actually barely customized. It absolutely works out of the box. I disabled a few animations and selected a different theme and added like three extra shortcuts but that is it. Nothing that would take more than ten minutes. I was comparing the vanilla experience. And yes, I should have specified that I am talking about my needs. I totally believe that the Mac Desktop might be better for the average user but that is no me.
coldpie 1y ago
Man just give me a way to switch between only the two most recent windows using a keyboard shortcut (without requiring some janky 3rd party program). Windows-style alt-tab. It's not a big ask and would make the macOS experience go from "barely usable" to "perfectly fine."
- WillAdams 1y ago
  Does Command tab not do this? It brings up a list of applications in most recently to least recently used order, so two apps switched to/from will constantly switch places.
  - zhivota 1y ago
    Not if the windows are both from the same program. Then it's a different keybind, CMD-~ which doesn't have the same priority order style as CMD-Tab. I get caught up on this constantly, to the point where I decided to stop using one Chrome window under my work profile, and one under my personal profile, just so I can have my personal browser under a different program so CMD-Tab works better.
    - WillAdams 1y ago
      Is that window priority order governed by the OS or the application? I don't recall the difficulty you mention happening with Safari.
    - baq 1y ago
      I actually use Edge for personal stuff on my work MacBook for this exact reason. The workflow simply isn’t possible otherwise.
  - coldpie 1y ago
    > It brings up a list of applications "Applications" is the problem. I want to switch between windows.
- cschep 1y ago
  cmd-tab does this. what are we missing? cmd-tab, cmd-tab. terminal, browser. browser, terminal. has for years.
dmm 1y ago
On a Mac, you can switch between apps with Command-Tab or windows of the same app with Command-` but there's no way to cycle between all windows or bounce between to two most recently used windows. Maybe this used to make sense when apps were single purpose but I do basically everything in a web browser or a terminal so not being able to bounce between the previously selected window(of whatever kind), as I can with Alt-Tab on linux or windows, is frustrating. Also Command-` switches to the next window, not the previous one like I would expect. MacOS removed subpixel antialiasing, honestly for understandable reasons, making rendering on low-ppi displays blurry, but high-ppi displays are still super expensive. I got a 32" 4k monitor(~140ppi) at Costco for $250. A >200ppi display of the same size costs 20x that amount.
- cosmic_cheese 1y ago
  For web apps, spinning them into “installed” apps (doable in both Chrome and Safari now) is the move. This unclogs your tab bar, gets rid of the pointless persistent browser chrome, and gives you the benefit of OS task management capabilities. You can add Shift to both Command-Tab and Command-` to move in the reverse direction.
  - boredtofears 1y ago
    Woah, I did not know about this installable web app feature - this is a game changer. Thanks for sharing.
  - nehal3m 1y ago
    Also I find the default Command-` to be unintuitive, especially on non-US keyboards (` is next to left Shift for me). I remapped Command-` to Option-Tab so you only have to move your thumb.
- acc348 1y ago
  32" 6K monitor from ASUS costs $1400, 27" 5K Dahua monitor is $500, it's not $250, but we are slowly getting there ...
  - 1y ago
dheera 1y ago
The point is that Linux allows you to customize it to your liking, almost infinitely. There is almost nothing you cannot do. People are comparing them to vanilla Mac setups because Macs don't really let you have a non-vanilla experience.
AceJohnny2 1y ago
> I’m referring to apples to apples comparison where they’re either some standard out of the box version or when customized with available tools and mods. Comparing your highly customized Linux desktop to a completely uncustomized Mac setup with no attempt at other tools or utilities isn’t an interesting comparison because it’s not apples to apples, it’s just a statement about your current preference. Perhaps you missed the parent's "(for power users)"? So here's an apples-to-apples comparison: customizing Mac desktop for one's preferences compared to Linux. I've been on Mac for 10 years because of Work. Before that I was on Linux, using the AwesomeWM tiling window manager. I dearly miss AwesomeWM. I've tried most 3rd-party window managers for Mac, and nothing comes close to the snappiness and functionality of Linux's tiling managers like AwesomeWM. Nowadays I just use window-movers like Rectangle [1], and I feel handicapped. The simple fact of the matter is that Mac does not allow the level of customization that Linux inherently does. MacOS' UI hooks are through the Accessibility framework, and in my user experience, it's just a slower, jankier emulation of what a more deeply integrated WM can do. As a specific example, the author of DisplayMaid [2] has complained elsewhere on HN that macOS does not provide reliable identifiers for the displays, so they had to implement their own heuristics. Side-note: for a system so inherently dockable as macbooks, it's a tragedy that I have to rely on a 3rd-party app to re-position my windows for one of my 2 regular work setups. I'm sure Apple could implement the hooks for better WM customization, they've certainly done their few updates with Spaces and their own poor-man's tiling, but the years with no update to integration demonstrate that they consider the Accessibility hooks to be Good Enough. [1] https://rectangleapp.com https://rectangleapp.com [2] https://funk-isoft.com/display-maid.html https://funk-isoft.com/display-maid.html
- aeroevan 1y ago
  yabai is as close as I've seen, but yeah nothing close to awesomewm or even something like sawywm

mschaef 1y ago

> The Mac Desktop is vastly inferior to the Linux world Asking out of curiosity, why is this? What's the functionality you miss on Mac?

cardanome 1y ago
Most of it is there but you need a crap-load of third party extension and some even cost money. Like proper alt-tab, better keyboard configuration, Finder is the worst file manager I have ever used, a classical task bar and so on. You can manage but the defaults are really bad for power users. Honestly Apple just needs to let me install a proper Desktop Environment like KDE on it. The unix base is decent, just give me more freedom.
- wqaatwt 1y ago
  To be fair KDE is also pretty wonky out of the box (basic stuff like turning numlock on boot is unnecessarily buggy or confusing). you usually also need a bunch of extensions. And 50% of them are broken due to various if you try to use KDE builtin extension thing.
pm215 1y ago
The one I have always missed is proper focus-follows-mouse support. The mac desktop always feels really clunky without that when working with multiple windows.
- voltaireodactyl 1y ago
  FWIW, this is now possible albeit with a third party app: https://github.com/sbmpost/AutoRaise https://github.com/sbmpost/AutoRaise
  - pm215 1y ago
    Proper focus-follows-mouse does not autoraise the window when it gives it focus. I see that that app does offer "don't raise the window" (which I think is an improvement from last time I was researching this some years back), but only under an "experimental feature" flag that relies on undocumented private macos APIs that might go away in any future macos version...

jsheard 1y ago

Desktop Macs do have fans so they're not completely silent, but if you were under the impression there aren't any then that reflects well on how good their tuning is. AFAIK the MacBook Air is the only passively cooled Mac.

cardanome 1y ago
I know that they have fans but I really can't hear them. Maaaybe when gaming but I would to have to really concentrate on that. And I am super sensitive to noise. It is so sad that apparently no one else bothers to tune their fans properly. It is such a killer feature for me.
- WorldPeas 1y ago
  for real. the only brand that comes close are the chromeboxes, or passive industrial computers, though the speed there isn't flawless, or close to it.

didacusc 1y ago

Saying that the macOS desktop is vastly inferior to Linux desktops is absolutely nuts. I've tried to get my relatives on Linux desktops so many times, just for it to go completely wrong a couple of weeks after and having to reinstall Windows. It's just not made for average (or below-average) users, so I don't see how it can be VASTLY inferior to something as easy and polished as macOS.

cardanome 1y ago
[flagged]
- jebarker 1y ago
  I do all my software development in remote clusters/supercomputers. I’d consider myself a power user. My laptop is for running a terminal, vscode, a browser and the various applications my company requires, e.g. Teams, Slack. So I want reliability, low configuration and maintenance overhead on my part and good battery life. Linux can’t compete on these fronts.
  - cardanome 1y ago
    All those pros you list have nothing to do with the desktop environment. Maybe low configuration but you can have that on Linux too. I totally agree that the hardware and the underlying Unix is decent. Audio on Mac is also way less of a hassle. I am not saying that a power user wouldn't have good reason to chose a Mac, just that the desktop is for me the weakest part of it compared to Linux.
  - trueismywork 1y ago
    I do the same and I prefer KDE much more than Mac OS X apart from battery part.
- cosmic_cheese 1y ago
  It’s more subjective of a thing than many would like to admit. As someone who’s been working as a dev for a decade and writing code outside of work for twice that, one of the things keeping me away from Linux is that there simply isn’t a true Mac analogue DE.