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> The "official" data reported by China can't be attempted to be believed. Most of it is highly manipulated. Attempts at independent verification are punished,

> The "official" data reported by China can't be attempted to be believed. Most of it is highly manipulated. Attempts at independent verification are punished, or blocked by making the raw data a state secret. If that's the case, then you should be able to provide tons of evidence. It's difficult to "hide" or "manipulate" data in a country the size of china that is tied to the global trading system. > But there's a enormous difference between China and democratic countries. "Democratic countries". Like russia? Or venezuela? Oh, let me guess, democratic countries you don't like are not "democratic countries". Right. You are just repeating the standard anti-china propaganda. It's the same of nonsense over and over again. "None of china's data can be trusted. They are lying and they are about to collapse". Followed by, "Oh my god china is an existential threat. They are going to overtake us. Deep seek, rare earth minerals blah blah blah". Make up your mind.

sharikous 1y ago
> If that's the case, then you should be able to provide tons of evidence. It's difficult to "hide" or "manipulate" data in a country the size of china that is tied to the global trading system. not very tied, actually, precisely because of heavy government interventions > "Democratic countries". Like russia? Or venezuela? Oh, let me guess, democratic countries you don't like are not "democratic countries". Right. I think that we can agree that democratic countries are countries where there is a choice and you see changes of government caused by free elections. That's not the case for Russia or Venezuela but it is (still) the case for most of the Western world > You are just repeating the standard anti-china propaganda. It's the same of nonsense over and over again. > "None of china's data can be trusted. They are lying and they are about to collapse". Followed by, "Oh my god china is an existential threat. They are going to overtake us. Deep seek, rare earth minerals blah blah blah". > Make up your mind. Who said that? Only you
spwa4 1y ago
Proof? Okay: https://merics.org/en/report/increasing-challenge-obtaining-information-xis-china https://merics.org/en/report/increasing-challenge-obtaining-... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-08-16/china-is-hiding-more-and-more-data-from-the-rest-of-the-world https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-08-16/china-is-... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-08-16/china-is-hiding-more-and-more-data-from-the-rest-of-the-world https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-08-16/china-is-... https://chinadigitaltimes.net/2025/05/censored-statistics-deleted-data-muddy-the-waters/ https://chinadigitaltimes.net/2025/05/censored-statistics-de... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1043951X01000657 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S10439... https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/china-is-hiding-more-and-more-data-from-the-world-especially-on-its-economy-101692156649940.html https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/china-is-hiding-mo... https://www.economist.com/briefing/2024/09/05/the-chinese-authorities-are-concealing-the-state-of-the-economy https://www.economist.com/briefing/2024/09/05/the-chinese-au... https://www.socsci.uci.edu/newsevents/news/2024/2024-07-17-wang-feng-newsweek.php https://www.socsci.uci.edu/newsevents/news/2024/2024-07-17-w... https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/17/health/covid-origins-who.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/17/health/covid-origins-who.... Standard communist playbook: as soon as something is embarrassing (like the youth unemployment rate in China), declare it a state secret. The fact that it's getting hard to find something they're not hiding is not a good sign. The list of things they're hiding is getting pretty damn long: internal trade statistics, housing sales, population numbers (first in the "ghost cities", then border regions, now all of China), disease statistics (they suddenly classified COVID statistics, now everything), unemployment rate (started with unemployed miners, then youth, now everything), immigration/emigration policies, economic growth, how they're treating various ethnic groups (Nepalese, Uyghurs, ...) A big question a lot of people are starting to ask: is the data the government itself is operating on still accurate? Because, of course, in Soviet Russia and other communist states it wasn't. Such states made very large, often disastrous, decisions based on fictitious data, so odds seem good the same is unfolding in China.
- hearsathought 1y ago
  [flagged]
- andelink 1y ago
  > https://www.socsci.uci.edu/newsevents/news/2024/2024-07-17-wang-feng-newsweek.php https://www.socsci.uci.edu/newsevents/news/2024/2024-07-17-w... It’s clear you didn’t read your links because this one concludes with: > "Scholars in China and at the UN have analyzed these and other data. Not a single person has 'discovered' such a huge discrepancy." ... "China has had at least three censuses since the start of the millennium, and there has been no evidence that more than 100 million people are overreported in China," Wang said.
nradov 1y ago
I'm old enough to remember when supposedly Japan was going to overtake us. Their economy was growing rapidly under MITI control while ours was stagnating. At the peak in 1991 the nominal value of real estate in Japan was higher than all of North America. Then the bubble popped in 1992 and Japan has been struggling ever since. The same thing will inevitably happen to China although it may take a while. Central planning is great at creating the illusion of growth but when you probe deeper you find the actual fair market value generated is much less.
- rzerowan 1y ago
  Theres the little matter of the US imposed Plaza Accords that have been skipped in the timeline there , which are widely acknowledged to have precipitated Japan's lost decades.
  - mgh95 1y ago
    > Theres the little matter of the US imposed Plaza Accords that have been skipped in the timeline there , which are widely acknowledged to have precipitated Japan's lost decades. Actually, no. The CPC generally argues this is the case, but it is largely incorrect. Japan responded to the Plaza accords by attempting to massively increase stimulus and preserve the structure (significant industrial, limited service/consumption economy) they started. In contrast, (West) Germany kept the stimulus relatively low and rotated into higher productivity enterprises and R&D and had a substantially lessened impact. See this (https://www.atlantis-press.com/article/125961733.pdf https://www.atlantis-press.com/article/125961733.pdf) The whole "US destroyed Japan with the Plaza accords" is basically CPC propaganda. China will have its own issues, but I would guess they look more like the 1992 sterling crisis where China cannot hold its yuan peg as it continues to have trade expansion without corresponding foreign exchange growth.
- Incipient 1y ago
  The main difference I'd say with China is population. They have 5x the people of the US and that just gives them a massive advantage. They also have the authoritarian government that's able to have a consistent focus on a mercanalist vision. They also have a large enough domestic market to develop technology. The US is in serious trouble. If you don't believe trump has already done irreversible damage, he will soon.
skinnymuch 1y ago
China is New Democracy. Democracy for these people’s chauvinism just means whatever the state dept wants them to believe.
- UltraSane 1y ago
  China isn't democratic at all.
  - skinnymuch 1y ago
    Yes it is. Unless you’re saying it’s not “old democratic” any more. Which is true since Mao Zedong Thought contains what he calls and enacted as “new democracy”. I’d be curious what your definition of democracy is. Mine is the will of the people is happening and it’s systematic and institutional. That for example doesn’t happen in America and never has as evidenced by the constitution
    - UltraSane 1y ago
      Mao Zedong was an idiot who badly damaged China. Democracy requires the freedom to create new political parties and for anyone to run in honest elections. The fact that the CCP is the only political party allowed in China proves it isn't democratic by definition. The US is absolutely not the gold standard for democracy. In fact the GOP's goal seems to be to become a single party dictatorship much like the CCP is.
      - lucyjojo 1y ago
        I don't think there are many democracies in the world. Republics are not démocraties as you elect a master instead of giving power to the people. Corruption sets in and rot everything in due time. Democracy mean that all citizen inherently have equal legitimacy and capacity to exert political power. For true démocraties you either need random choice of citizens who decide, or votes by all citizen. We currently have a bunch of oligarchies around the world bending the laws in ridiculous manners to answer to those with power (currently mostly, but not necessarily, the very rich). You only need to study the past of our "démocraties" when violent and deadly répression of popular upheaval to the benefit of industry barons was a regular thing. Nowadays you get more of these things in slightly indirect ways, ergonomic social and cultural violence. Also, a brief mention of the Epstein files make it pretty obvious that the people's will does not really matter. And do not think one second this is unique to America. A few years ago in France you had the Europe referendum, a rare moment of democracy, where the people voted "the wrong way" according to the néolibérals in power, and thus they proceeded to simply ignore said vote. The founders of our various political systems made it pretty clear they despised democracy in the first place. The word became popular relatively recently... Democracy is a radical idea. I don't even think many people in this forum actually want democracy. They will think plumbers, or nurses, of people of the "opposite party" are subhumans unfit to decide for the good of the people.
wqaatwt 1y ago
> "Democratic countries". Like russia? Do you think a country can be both fascist and democratic at the same time?

sharikous 1y ago

> If that's the case, then you should be able to provide tons of evidence. It's difficult to "hide" or "manipulate" data in a country the size of china that is tied to the global trading system. not very tied, actually, precisely because of heavy government interventions > "Democratic countries". Like russia? Or venezuela? Oh, let me guess, democratic countries you don't like are not "democratic countries". Right. I think that we can agree that democratic countries are countries where there is a choice and you see changes of government caused by free elections. That's not the case for Russia or Venezuela but it is (still) the case for most of the Western world > You are just repeating the standard anti-china propaganda. It's the same of nonsense over and over again. > "None of china's data can be trusted. They are lying and they are about to collapse". Followed by, "Oh my god china is an existential threat. They are going to overtake us. Deep seek, rare earth minerals blah blah blah". > Make up your mind. Who said that? Only you

spwa4 1y ago

Proof? Okay: https://merics.org/en/report/increasing-challenge-obtaining-information-xis-china https://merics.org/en/report/increasing-challenge-obtaining-... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-08-16/china-is-hiding-more-and-more-data-from-the-rest-of-the-world https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-08-16/china-is-... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-08-16/china-is-hiding-more-and-more-data-from-the-rest-of-the-world https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-08-16/china-is-... https://chinadigitaltimes.net/2025/05/censored-statistics-deleted-data-muddy-the-waters/ https://chinadigitaltimes.net/2025/05/censored-statistics-de... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1043951X01000657 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S10439... https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/china-is-hiding-more-and-more-data-from-the-world-especially-on-its-economy-101692156649940.html https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/china-is-hiding-mo... https://www.economist.com/briefing/2024/09/05/the-chinese-authorities-are-concealing-the-state-of-the-economy https://www.economist.com/briefing/2024/09/05/the-chinese-au... https://www.socsci.uci.edu/newsevents/news/2024/2024-07-17-wang-feng-newsweek.php https://www.socsci.uci.edu/newsevents/news/2024/2024-07-17-w... https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/17/health/covid-origins-who.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/17/health/covid-origins-who.... Standard communist playbook: as soon as something is embarrassing (like the youth unemployment rate in China), declare it a state secret. The fact that it's getting hard to find something they're not hiding is not a good sign. The list of things they're hiding is getting pretty damn long: internal trade statistics, housing sales, population numbers (first in the "ghost cities", then border regions, now all of China), disease statistics (they suddenly classified COVID statistics, now everything), unemployment rate (started with unemployed miners, then youth, now everything), immigration/emigration policies, economic growth, how they're treating various ethnic groups (Nepalese, Uyghurs, ...) A big question a lot of people are starting to ask: is the data the government itself is operating on still accurate? Because, of course, in Soviet Russia and other communist states it wasn't. Such states made very large, often disastrous, decisions based on fictitious data, so odds seem good the same is unfolding in China.

hearsathought 1y ago
[flagged]
andelink 1y ago
> https://www.socsci.uci.edu/newsevents/news/2024/2024-07-17-wang-feng-newsweek.php https://www.socsci.uci.edu/newsevents/news/2024/2024-07-17-w... It’s clear you didn’t read your links because this one concludes with: > "Scholars in China and at the UN have analyzed these and other data. Not a single person has 'discovered' such a huge discrepancy." ... "China has had at least three censuses since the start of the millennium, and there has been no evidence that more than 100 million people are overreported in China," Wang said.

nradov 1y ago

I'm old enough to remember when supposedly Japan was going to overtake us. Their economy was growing rapidly under MITI control while ours was stagnating. At the peak in 1991 the nominal value of real estate in Japan was higher than all of North America. Then the bubble popped in 1992 and Japan has been struggling ever since. The same thing will inevitably happen to China although it may take a while. Central planning is great at creating the illusion of growth but when you probe deeper you find the actual fair market value generated is much less.

rzerowan 1y ago
Theres the little matter of the US imposed Plaza Accords that have been skipped in the timeline there , which are widely acknowledged to have precipitated Japan's lost decades.
- mgh95 1y ago
  > Theres the little matter of the US imposed Plaza Accords that have been skipped in the timeline there , which are widely acknowledged to have precipitated Japan's lost decades. Actually, no. The CPC generally argues this is the case, but it is largely incorrect. Japan responded to the Plaza accords by attempting to massively increase stimulus and preserve the structure (significant industrial, limited service/consumption economy) they started. In contrast, (West) Germany kept the stimulus relatively low and rotated into higher productivity enterprises and R&D and had a substantially lessened impact. See this (https://www.atlantis-press.com/article/125961733.pdf https://www.atlantis-press.com/article/125961733.pdf) The whole "US destroyed Japan with the Plaza accords" is basically CPC propaganda. China will have its own issues, but I would guess they look more like the 1992 sterling crisis where China cannot hold its yuan peg as it continues to have trade expansion without corresponding foreign exchange growth.
Incipient 1y ago
The main difference I'd say with China is population. They have 5x the people of the US and that just gives them a massive advantage. They also have the authoritarian government that's able to have a consistent focus on a mercanalist vision. They also have a large enough domestic market to develop technology. The US is in serious trouble. If you don't believe trump has already done irreversible damage, he will soon.

skinnymuch 1y ago

China is New Democracy. Democracy for these people’s chauvinism just means whatever the state dept wants them to believe.

UltraSane 1y ago
China isn't democratic at all.
- skinnymuch 1y ago
  Yes it is. Unless you’re saying it’s not “old democratic” any more. Which is true since Mao Zedong Thought contains what he calls and enacted as “new democracy”. I’d be curious what your definition of democracy is. Mine is the will of the people is happening and it’s systematic and institutional. That for example doesn’t happen in America and never has as evidenced by the constitution
  - UltraSane 1y ago
    Mao Zedong was an idiot who badly damaged China. Democracy requires the freedom to create new political parties and for anyone to run in honest elections. The fact that the CCP is the only political party allowed in China proves it isn't democratic by definition. The US is absolutely not the gold standard for democracy. In fact the GOP's goal seems to be to become a single party dictatorship much like the CCP is.
    - lucyjojo 1y ago
      I don't think there are many democracies in the world. Republics are not démocraties as you elect a master instead of giving power to the people. Corruption sets in and rot everything in due time. Democracy mean that all citizen inherently have equal legitimacy and capacity to exert political power. For true démocraties you either need random choice of citizens who decide, or votes by all citizen. We currently have a bunch of oligarchies around the world bending the laws in ridiculous manners to answer to those with power (currently mostly, but not necessarily, the very rich). You only need to study the past of our "démocraties" when violent and deadly répression of popular upheaval to the benefit of industry barons was a regular thing. Nowadays you get more of these things in slightly indirect ways, ergonomic social and cultural violence. Also, a brief mention of the Epstein files make it pretty obvious that the people's will does not really matter. And do not think one second this is unique to America. A few years ago in France you had the Europe referendum, a rare moment of democracy, where the people voted "the wrong way" according to the néolibérals in power, and thus they proceeded to simply ignore said vote. The founders of our various political systems made it pretty clear they despised democracy in the first place. The word became popular relatively recently... Democracy is a radical idea. I don't even think many people in this forum actually want democracy. They will think plumbers, or nurses, of people of the "opposite party" are subhumans unfit to decide for the good of the people.

wqaatwt 1y ago

> "Democratic countries". Like russia? Do you think a country can be both fascist and democratic at the same time?