6 ms·

What a terrible way to take constructive feedback. Writing not one but two blog posts takes time and effort, moreso when it includes investigation and examples

by kaoD 1y ago

What a terrible way to take constructive feedback. Writing not one but two blog posts takes time and effort, moreso when it includes investigation and examples... the posts are not just low effort "this is crap" rants (and they even blame themselves, even though it's clear from the posts that there are documentation/discoverability issues). What if the poster doesn't feel knowledgeable enough to contribute code? (as shown by his first post title, "I'm too dumb for...") If that's not collaborating I don't know what it is...

koiueo 1y ago
I've read it completely differently. The response IMO is constructive and invites the blog post author for further discussion.
- 9question1 1y ago
  I think it's likely that both the blog poster and the maintainer are being perceived as more negative in tone than the intent / reality. They both included disclaimers "I must be doing something wrong. And if I am, I'm sorry." and "whatever, it’s their blog so they can do what they want." They're also both giving critical feedback "But, if I'm not, this is a problem right?" "Kinda wish the author would attempt to collaborate rather than write stuff like this" but in both cases the criticism is extremely mildly worded compared to most toxic online discourse. This seems... great? Isn't it good we're able to disagree so politely? It's not toxic to have a disagreement or to give critical feedback. We don't need to all pretend to agree with each other all the time or be happy with each other in order to have a civil discourse.
- wolttam 1y ago
  "but whatever" are two of the most dismissive words when put together. "I see what you've written, but whatever."
  - oofd4 1y ago
    [dead]
  - MarkusQ 1y ago
    It depends on context. When someone raises a potential objection and then says "but whatever" they are being dismissive towards their own objection. This is also called "letting it go" or "moving on".
  - koiueo 1y ago
    And posting direct links to the places where discussion actually happens along with providing tldr context is as constructive as you can get. But whatever :)
zamadatix 1y ago
That's not the read I got from Andrew's comment, or the situation. If the poster doesn't feel knowledgeable/able enough to collaborate in the community discussions (like the issue links, which don't require contributing code) then doing individual blog posts instead is only going to give even worse results for everyone.
- kaoD 1y ago
  Might be cultural differences but, to me... > Kinda wish the author would attempt to collaborate rather than write stuff like this [...] but, whatever, it’s their blog so they can do what they want. ...feels like passive aggression. In particular the "stuff like this" (like what?) and "but, whatever" felt very unnecessary and the whole "I wish he'd collaborate on my terms" is IMO uncalled for.
  - zamadatix 1y ago
    Yeah, I could see it being better without that portion of the final sentence. At the same time, I think opening "What a terrible way to take constructive feedback" is at least equally as grating a way to engage about it - but at the end of the day we're all humans, not saints, and it seems clear to me both comments are well intentioned and decently put as a whole. Same as me, I'm sure if I look back at these comments in 3 days there will be parts I would have changed, but overall I'd probably thing they were decent instead of terrible. I'm glad you made the note about that part though, I agree with it and we can always do better.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
  - fp64 1y ago
    Meh, I have the impression the blog author really hates Zig's new Writer (fair, I disagree, but fair), but his criticism in this example is in my eyes slightly questionable -- it is a bug in the implementation and not a conceptual issue. He then uses quite some loaded phrasing like "I must be too dumb to understand this" and "I can't be really too dumb can I?" which I think ruin the discussion (as do the titles. He failed to convince me, for instance, that the new Writer was inherently unsafe by design). It feels like a "Look I told you!!! You run into bugs like this!!!" which is not helpful for a feature/refactor that was already advertised as complex and not fully implemented or verified. Disclaimer: I'm a zig fanboy and do all my hobby stuff in it
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
Intermernet 1y ago
Collaborating would be contacting the Zig team through one of the many channels available and asking questions, offering suggestions etc. Posting critical blog posts without doing this first is counter-productive, and can even be seen as self promotion. After all, we're now discussing the blog posts, and not the actual issues. Would this have happened if the author had just sent an email to the mailing list or asked on Github?
- nromiun 1y ago
  Why is this counter-productive and self promotion? Does that mean we should all stop writing programming related blog posts? And move all the discussions into GitHub issues only?
  - Intermernet 1y ago
    You can keep writing blogs, but if you want to collaborate you should use the actual mechanisms set up by the project to do so. It's fine if you want to blog about this stuff, and it's often a means for developers to get their name out there and promote their opinions and ideas. There is nothing wrong with doing this, but if you actually have an issue with a project it's much faster, simpler, and, dare I say it, polite, to use the actual channels created for exactly this purpose.
    - nromiun 1y ago
      When the inside channels set up by the project gaslight people into thinking there is no problem at all I think it is more appropriate to use blogs, where you have complete freedom to say what you want. Also, blogs have been used since forever to give constructive feedback to other projects, even other programming languages. So I don't understand why it is suddenly not okey for the Zig project.
      - Intermernet 1y ago
        Blogs aren't constructive feedback because they aren't easily discoverable. If you see someone has something stuck in their teeth do you yell it to the world and hope they fix the problem, or do you first politely and discretely inform the person. Resorting to blogs as the first course of feedback isn't about helping a project, or collaborating, it's about advertising to the world.
ksec 1y ago
Except, if you click on the Openmymind.net link on HN to show all its submission, it has been Zig focus critics on different things, and may be rants.

by kaoD 1y ago

koiueo 1y ago

I've read it completely differently. The response IMO is constructive and invites the blog post author for further discussion.

9question1 1y ago
I think it's likely that both the blog poster and the maintainer are being perceived as more negative in tone than the intent / reality. They both included disclaimers "I must be doing something wrong. And if I am, I'm sorry." and "whatever, it’s their blog so they can do what they want." They're also both giving critical feedback "But, if I'm not, this is a problem right?" "Kinda wish the author would attempt to collaborate rather than write stuff like this" but in both cases the criticism is extremely mildly worded compared to most toxic online discourse. This seems... great? Isn't it good we're able to disagree so politely? It's not toxic to have a disagreement or to give critical feedback. We don't need to all pretend to agree with each other all the time or be happy with each other in order to have a civil discourse.
wolttam 1y ago
"but whatever" are two of the most dismissive words when put together. "I see what you've written, but whatever."
- oofd4 1y ago
  [dead]
- MarkusQ 1y ago
  It depends on context. When someone raises a potential objection and then says "but whatever" they are being dismissive towards their own objection. This is also called "letting it go" or "moving on".
- koiueo 1y ago
  And posting direct links to the places where discussion actually happens along with providing tldr context is as constructive as you can get. But whatever :)

zamadatix 1y ago

That's not the read I got from Andrew's comment, or the situation. If the poster doesn't feel knowledgeable/able enough to collaborate in the community discussions (like the issue links, which don't require contributing code) then doing individual blog posts instead is only going to give even worse results for everyone.

kaoD 1y ago
Might be cultural differences but, to me... > Kinda wish the author would attempt to collaborate rather than write stuff like this [...] but, whatever, it’s their blog so they can do what they want. ...feels like passive aggression. In particular the "stuff like this" (like what?) and "but, whatever" felt very unnecessary and the whole "I wish he'd collaborate on my terms" is IMO uncalled for.
- zamadatix 1y ago
  Yeah, I could see it being better without that portion of the final sentence. At the same time, I think opening "What a terrible way to take constructive feedback" is at least equally as grating a way to engage about it - but at the end of the day we're all humans, not saints, and it seems clear to me both comments are well intentioned and decently put as a whole. Same as me, I'm sure if I look back at these comments in 3 days there will be parts I would have changed, but overall I'd probably thing they were decent instead of terrible. I'm glad you made the note about that part though, I agree with it and we can always do better.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- fp64 1y ago
  Meh, I have the impression the blog author really hates Zig's new Writer (fair, I disagree, but fair), but his criticism in this example is in my eyes slightly questionable -- it is a bug in the implementation and not a conceptual issue. He then uses quite some loaded phrasing like "I must be too dumb to understand this" and "I can't be really too dumb can I?" which I think ruin the discussion (as do the titles. He failed to convince me, for instance, that the new Writer was inherently unsafe by design). It feels like a "Look I told you!!! You run into bugs like this!!!" which is not helpful for a feature/refactor that was already advertised as complex and not fully implemented or verified. Disclaimer: I'm a zig fanboy and do all my hobby stuff in it

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

Intermernet 1y ago

Collaborating would be contacting the Zig team through one of the many channels available and asking questions, offering suggestions etc. Posting critical blog posts without doing this first is counter-productive, and can even be seen as self promotion. After all, we're now discussing the blog posts, and not the actual issues. Would this have happened if the author had just sent an email to the mailing list or asked on Github?

nromiun 1y ago
Why is this counter-productive and self promotion? Does that mean we should all stop writing programming related blog posts? And move all the discussions into GitHub issues only?
- Intermernet 1y ago
  You can keep writing blogs, but if you want to collaborate you should use the actual mechanisms set up by the project to do so. It's fine if you want to blog about this stuff, and it's often a means for developers to get their name out there and promote their opinions and ideas. There is nothing wrong with doing this, but if you actually have an issue with a project it's much faster, simpler, and, dare I say it, polite, to use the actual channels created for exactly this purpose.
  - nromiun 1y ago
    When the inside channels set up by the project gaslight people into thinking there is no problem at all I think it is more appropriate to use blogs, where you have complete freedom to say what you want. Also, blogs have been used since forever to give constructive feedback to other projects, even other programming languages. So I don't understand why it is suddenly not okey for the Zig project.
    - Intermernet 1y ago
      Blogs aren't constructive feedback because they aren't easily discoverable. If you see someone has something stuck in their teeth do you yell it to the world and hope they fix the problem, or do you first politely and discretely inform the person. Resorting to blogs as the first course of feedback isn't about helping a project, or collaborating, it's about advertising to the world.

ksec 1y ago

Except, if you click on the Openmymind.net link on HN to show all its submission, it has been Zig focus critics on different things, and may be rants.