6 ms·

Andrew Kelley (Zig creator) replied to this on lobste.rs https://lobste.rs/s/js25k9/is_zig_s_new_writer_unsafe#c_ftgczy https://lobste.rs/s/js25k9/is_zig_s_new

by simjnd 1y ago

Andrew Kelley (Zig creator) replied to this on lobste.rs https://lobste.rs/s/js25k9/is_zig_s_new_writer_unsafe#c_ftgczy https://lobste.rs/s/js25k9/is_zig_s_new_writer_unsafe#c_ftgc...

flykespice 1y ago
> Kinda wish the author would attempt to collaborate rather than write stuff like this and I’m too dumb for Zig’s new IO interface but, whatever, it’s their blog so they can do what they want. Damn, Andrew Kelley really come across as a dickhead when taking any bit of criticism about his language, often painting them as bad actors trying to sabotage the language. This isn't the first time he repeats this behavior. EDIT: https://news.ycombinator.com/context?id=45119964 https://news.ycombinator.com/context?id=45119964 https://news.ycombinator.com/context?id=43579569 https://news.ycombinator.com/context?id=43579569
- tristan957 1y ago
  That was not my takeaway from his comment at all.
  - HextenAndy 1y ago
    Quite. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect someone to check the issue tracker before blogging and I don't think Andrew's response was at all problematic.
    - didibus 1y ago
      I'd say the only issue what the "too dumb, but whatever" comment. That should have been removed and it would have been totally reasonable. Edit: Oh actually, the author has another blog post titled "I'm too dumb for Zig ...". With that context, it makes sense and I agree it's a reasonable response. I'm sure other readers like me didn't know that context though.
- meisel 1y ago
  Yeah, and his behavior in this LLVM discourse thread made me not want to ever try Zig: https://discourse.llvm.org/t/rfc-libc-taking-a-dependency-on-boost-math-for-the-c-17-math-special-functions/87479/4 https://discourse.llvm.org/t/rfc-libc-taking-a-dependency-on...
  - francispauli 1y ago
    I'm guessing you never tried Linux either
    - nromiun 1y ago
      Just because a popular project leader is a jerk does not mean the way to success is to be a jerk too.
      - zahlman 1y ago
        Sure, but the evidence suggests that a complete inability to deal with jerks is going to be very limiting.
        nromiun 1y ago
        Maybe for some people. But most people are not jerks and you can absolutely limit yourself to dealing with them only.
        tingletech 1y ago
        Unless you want to participate in your HOA or local government, then I can't see how to limit myself to dealing with only non-jerks.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
  - bitexploder 1y ago
    That all seemed pretty adult and tame. Maybe slightly stand-offish at worst. And I tended to agree with Andrew in that thread. A project like Zig is an absolutely massive undertaking. I can cut Andrew some slack. Not everyone is perfect all the time, and his behavior there was nowhere close to BS I have seen in other open source projects. Ahem, Linus.
- nhanb 1y ago
  Idk, Andrew's comment seems fair enough to me.
- travisgriggs 1y ago
  Interesting. I liked the candid honesty.
- Validark 1y ago
  Andrew may be expressing frustration or dismay or annoyance in that statement, but he is not definitively "painting them as bad actors trying to sabotage the language". You are HEAVILY reading into his statement. He only said he wishes the author would have taken a different approach. So what? Why does everyone have to jump in and start psychologizing or essentializing Andrew based on one paragraph? Why does one paragraph have to say so much about who he is as a person? Even if it did piss him off for a few hours, so what? He's not allowed to wish someone took a different approach? I tend to think Andrew Kelley is a great guy, not just technically but as a person. And I think that because I've listened to him talk for dozens of hours. I can guarantee you that that one sentence he wrote is not the beginning of a character assassination campaign against the author of this blog. He made Zig because he wanted to put something good into the world and improve the state of software. How about we include that in our analysis of Andrew's character? I'll leave it to the reader to consider whether the multi-year full time dedication to Zig should be weighed more heavily than a personal feeling he had for two minutes that he expressed respectfully without attacking anyone's character.
  - lioeters 1y ago
    From his "Open Letter to Everyone I've Butted Heads With": > My friend - it's not personal. I care about you. I actually do value your opinion. I'm interested in your thoughts and feelings. I want to make you happy. I'm sad that I can't serve you better with my open source project. I want to. I wish I could. > I'm hustling. I'm playing the game. I'm doing what it takes to make this thing mainstream and a viable, practical choice for individuals and companies. If you talk shit about Zig in public, I'm going to fight back. But I respect you. I see you. I understand you. I don't hate you. I would literally buy you a drink. https://andrewkelley.me/post/open-letter-everyone-butted-heads.html https://andrewkelley.me/post/open-letter-everyone-butted-hea...
- jmull 1y ago
  I know what you mean, but name-calling has got to be one of the worst ways to call for some decorum. It just leads to flame wars. (Be the change you want to see, and all that.)
  - jamii 1y ago
    EDIT I totally missed the context
    - jmull 1y ago
      Read the comment I replied to. edit: np :)
      - jamii 1y ago
        My bad :)
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
  - flykespice 1y ago
    Yea I think my post came off as insulting which I didn't mean at all (I particulary don't consider "dickhead" as insult but more a synonym for bad character) I have nothing against him at all or his language (in fact I hope it further replaces C dominant position in embedded systems and low level programming), I just wish he toned down his passive attitude against criticism acting in good faith.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- bastawhiz 1y ago
  > any bit of criticism about his language I'm not even sure that it's criticism. I read it as a genuine open question. At least in my experience, asking questions like this through GitHub issues or a mailing list are met with negativity. I don't want to post through a channel where I'll get a snide, terse response from a maintainer. I'd much rather post to my blog audience, who I find to be generally knowledgeable and friendly enough to already be following me. And if I found an answer, I'd post about it and explain what I learned in the process, linking from the existing post. In a lot of ways, I think Andrew's response is exactly the sort of flavor of reply that I would have expected no matter what channel the question had been posed through, and that's exactly why I wouldn't have gone through those channels if I was the author. His reply didn't answer the question aside from implying it's maybe an issue, nor did it invite feedback.
- epolanski 1y ago
  Nothing wrong/strange in those posts. In any case I've seen how communities treat the authors of important projects that touch their livelihood or habits to be unsurprised an author may lose it at times.
- kiitos 1y ago
  yup, he's also got a consistent history of aggressively disparaging and misinformed comments about go, fwiw
kaoD 1y ago
What a terrible way to take constructive feedback. Writing not one but two blog posts takes time and effort, moreso when it includes investigation and examples... the posts are not just low effort "this is crap" rants (and they even blame themselves, even though it's clear from the posts that there are documentation/discoverability issues). What if the poster doesn't feel knowledgeable enough to contribute code? (as shown by his first post title, "I'm too dumb for...") If that's not collaborating I don't know what it is...
- koiueo 1y ago
  I've read it completely differently. The response IMO is constructive and invites the blog post author for further discussion.
  - 9question1 1y ago
    I think it's likely that both the blog poster and the maintainer are being perceived as more negative in tone than the intent / reality. They both included disclaimers "I must be doing something wrong. And if I am, I'm sorry." and "whatever, it’s their blog so they can do what they want." They're also both giving critical feedback "But, if I'm not, this is a problem right?" "Kinda wish the author would attempt to collaborate rather than write stuff like this" but in both cases the criticism is extremely mildly worded compared to most toxic online discourse. This seems... great? Isn't it good we're able to disagree so politely? It's not toxic to have a disagreement or to give critical feedback. We don't need to all pretend to agree with each other all the time or be happy with each other in order to have a civil discourse.
  - wolttam 1y ago
    "but whatever" are two of the most dismissive words when put together. "I see what you've written, but whatever."
    - oofd4 1y ago
      [dead]
    - 1y ago
wolvesechoes 1y ago
This subthread is peak FOSS world experience - 59 comments discussing who said what, why it was or wasn't nice etc.

by simjnd 1y ago

Andrew Kelley (Zig creator) replied to this on lobste.rs https://lobste.rs/s/js25k9/is_zig_s_new_writer_unsafe#c_ftgczy https://lobste.rs/s/js25k9/is_zig_s_new_writer_unsafe#c_ftgc...

flykespice 1y ago

> Kinda wish the author would attempt to collaborate rather than write stuff like this and I’m too dumb for Zig’s new IO interface but, whatever, it’s their blog so they can do what they want. Damn, Andrew Kelley really come across as a dickhead when taking any bit of criticism about his language, often painting them as bad actors trying to sabotage the language. This isn't the first time he repeats this behavior. EDIT: https://news.ycombinator.com/context?id=45119964 https://news.ycombinator.com/context?id=45119964 https://news.ycombinator.com/context?id=43579569 https://news.ycombinator.com/context?id=43579569

tristan957 1y ago
That was not my takeaway from his comment at all.
- HextenAndy 1y ago
  Quite. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect someone to check the issue tracker before blogging and I don't think Andrew's response was at all problematic.
  - didibus 1y ago
    I'd say the only issue what the "too dumb, but whatever" comment. That should have been removed and it would have been totally reasonable. Edit: Oh actually, the author has another blog post titled "I'm too dumb for Zig ...". With that context, it makes sense and I agree it's a reasonable response. I'm sure other readers like me didn't know that context though.
meisel 1y ago
Yeah, and his behavior in this LLVM discourse thread made me not want to ever try Zig: https://discourse.llvm.org/t/rfc-libc-taking-a-dependency-on-boost-math-for-the-c-17-math-special-functions/87479/4 https://discourse.llvm.org/t/rfc-libc-taking-a-dependency-on...
- francispauli 1y ago
  I'm guessing you never tried Linux either
  - nromiun 1y ago
    Just because a popular project leader is a jerk does not mean the way to success is to be a jerk too.
    - zahlman 1y ago
      Sure, but the evidence suggests that a complete inability to deal with jerks is going to be very limiting.
      - nromiun 1y ago
        Maybe for some people. But most people are not jerks and you can absolutely limit yourself to dealing with them only.
        tingletech 1y ago
        Unless you want to participate in your HOA or local government, then I can't see how to limit myself to dealing with only non-jerks.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- bitexploder 1y ago
  That all seemed pretty adult and tame. Maybe slightly stand-offish at worst. And I tended to agree with Andrew in that thread. A project like Zig is an absolutely massive undertaking. I can cut Andrew some slack. Not everyone is perfect all the time, and his behavior there was nowhere close to BS I have seen in other open source projects. Ahem, Linus.
nhanb 1y ago
Idk, Andrew's comment seems fair enough to me.
travisgriggs 1y ago
Interesting. I liked the candid honesty.
Validark 1y ago
Andrew may be expressing frustration or dismay or annoyance in that statement, but he is not definitively "painting them as bad actors trying to sabotage the language". You are HEAVILY reading into his statement. He only said he wishes the author would have taken a different approach. So what? Why does everyone have to jump in and start psychologizing or essentializing Andrew based on one paragraph? Why does one paragraph have to say so much about who he is as a person? Even if it did piss him off for a few hours, so what? He's not allowed to wish someone took a different approach? I tend to think Andrew Kelley is a great guy, not just technically but as a person. And I think that because I've listened to him talk for dozens of hours. I can guarantee you that that one sentence he wrote is not the beginning of a character assassination campaign against the author of this blog. He made Zig because he wanted to put something good into the world and improve the state of software. How about we include that in our analysis of Andrew's character? I'll leave it to the reader to consider whether the multi-year full time dedication to Zig should be weighed more heavily than a personal feeling he had for two minutes that he expressed respectfully without attacking anyone's character.
- lioeters 1y ago
  From his "Open Letter to Everyone I've Butted Heads With": > My friend - it's not personal. I care about you. I actually do value your opinion. I'm interested in your thoughts and feelings. I want to make you happy. I'm sad that I can't serve you better with my open source project. I want to. I wish I could. > I'm hustling. I'm playing the game. I'm doing what it takes to make this thing mainstream and a viable, practical choice for individuals and companies. If you talk shit about Zig in public, I'm going to fight back. But I respect you. I see you. I understand you. I don't hate you. I would literally buy you a drink. https://andrewkelley.me/post/open-letter-everyone-butted-heads.html https://andrewkelley.me/post/open-letter-everyone-butted-hea...
jmull 1y ago
I know what you mean, but name-calling has got to be one of the worst ways to call for some decorum. It just leads to flame wars. (Be the change you want to see, and all that.)
- jamii 1y ago
  EDIT I totally missed the context
  - jmull 1y ago
    Read the comment I replied to. edit: np :)
    - jamii 1y ago
      My bad :)
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
- flykespice 1y ago
  Yea I think my post came off as insulting which I didn't mean at all (I particulary don't consider "dickhead" as insult but more a synonym for bad character) I have nothing against him at all or his language (in fact I hope it further replaces C dominant position in embedded systems and low level programming), I just wish he toned down his passive attitude against criticism acting in good faith.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
bastawhiz 1y ago
> any bit of criticism about his language I'm not even sure that it's criticism. I read it as a genuine open question. At least in my experience, asking questions like this through GitHub issues or a mailing list are met with negativity. I don't want to post through a channel where I'll get a snide, terse response from a maintainer. I'd much rather post to my blog audience, who I find to be generally knowledgeable and friendly enough to already be following me. And if I found an answer, I'd post about it and explain what I learned in the process, linking from the existing post. In a lot of ways, I think Andrew's response is exactly the sort of flavor of reply that I would have expected no matter what channel the question had been posed through, and that's exactly why I wouldn't have gone through those channels if I was the author. His reply didn't answer the question aside from implying it's maybe an issue, nor did it invite feedback.
epolanski 1y ago
Nothing wrong/strange in those posts. In any case I've seen how communities treat the authors of important projects that touch their livelihood or habits to be unsurprised an author may lose it at times.
kiitos 1y ago
yup, he's also got a consistent history of aggressively disparaging and misinformed comments about go, fwiw

kaoD 1y ago

What a terrible way to take constructive feedback. Writing not one but two blog posts takes time and effort, moreso when it includes investigation and examples... the posts are not just low effort "this is crap" rants (and they even blame themselves, even though it's clear from the posts that there are documentation/discoverability issues). What if the poster doesn't feel knowledgeable enough to contribute code? (as shown by his first post title, "I'm too dumb for...") If that's not collaborating I don't know what it is...

koiueo 1y ago
I've read it completely differently. The response IMO is constructive and invites the blog post author for further discussion.
- 9question1 1y ago
  I think it's likely that both the blog poster and the maintainer are being perceived as more negative in tone than the intent / reality. They both included disclaimers "I must be doing something wrong. And if I am, I'm sorry." and "whatever, it’s their blog so they can do what they want." They're also both giving critical feedback "But, if I'm not, this is a problem right?" "Kinda wish the author would attempt to collaborate rather than write stuff like this" but in both cases the criticism is extremely mildly worded compared to most toxic online discourse. This seems... great? Isn't it good we're able to disagree so politely? It's not toxic to have a disagreement or to give critical feedback. We don't need to all pretend to agree with each other all the time or be happy with each other in order to have a civil discourse.
- wolttam 1y ago
  "but whatever" are two of the most dismissive words when put together. "I see what you've written, but whatever."
  - oofd4 1y ago
    [dead]
  - 1y ago

wolvesechoes 1y ago

This subthread is peak FOSS world experience - 59 comments discussing who said what, why it was or wasn't nice etc.