6 ms·

I suppose trademark law will be the catch-all protection Disney will be using from now.

joecool1029 1y ago
That was the plan for years now. They made steamboat willie a part of their animation wing's trademark more than a decade ago: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MJkQ-1Jvf0g https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MJkQ-1Jvf0g
hamdingers 1y ago
Am I wrong in thinking this makes more sense than decades/centuries long copyrights? Let the copyright on a work expire so I can share my copy of Toy Story with my friends, but retain a trademark on the characters so that I can't go around making new Toy Story movies (or theme parks or pajamas).
- cool_dude85 1y ago
  But why shouldn't you be able to make a new Toy Story movie 100 years, give or take, after the original?
  - worik 1y ago
    Yes But ten years A decade is enough IP is a trade off, and the balance is wonky
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - hamdingers 1y ago
    Depends, is there still a Disney making official Toy Story products that your products could be confused with? If not, fair game.
- themafia 1y ago
  With the copyright expired you can do more than share. You could make copies and then sell them.
- Terr_ 1y ago
  > retain a trademark on the characters so that I can't go around making new Toy Story movies Here's a quick thought experiment: Suppose I create a small movie company based on another character also in the public domain, and I successfully receive a trademark for my logo, which is... Jesus Christ. Does/Should that give me control over anyone selling or distributing other books, movies, pictures, and songs depicting Jesus? In a sane world, the answer is "heck no", because trademarks are really about stopping fraud, where someone else is trying to leech off my good reputation by confusing people into doing business with them instead. Now, one might plausibly argue that Jesus is "generic" and thus the original trademark was wrongly granted, but the same principles apply even if I rebrand under just one of the less-popular characters or symbols. ("As the owner Pontius Pilate Productions, your story violates my trademark!")
  - marcosdumay 1y ago
    You can't get the trademark on the parts that are in common use, and you can't the trademark in a way that harms language. You can get protection over stuff that you invented and doesn't limit how people talk to each other. On this case specifically, you can't make a Mickey Mouse cartoon in a way that looks like it came from Disney. That's all that the trademark protects.
  - zdragnar 1y ago
    There's not much point to the thought exercise. You wouldn't get the trademark in the first place.
    - Terr_ 1y ago
      > There's not much point to the thought exercise. You wouldn't get the trademark in the first place. My brother in Jesus Christ paperwork, even now there are already 236 active and formally-registered trademarks which have been granted involving "Jesus Christ", 18 if you limit it to "wordmarks." [0] Also, as per the concurrent(?) edited-in last paragraph, the basic idea remains even if the scope is, er, less-grandiose. [0] https://tmsearch.uspto.gov/search/ https://tmsearch.uspto.gov/search/
- smelendez 1y ago
  I’d rather a trademark approach that says you can use the characters but you can’t call it Toy Story, Disney, Pixar, etc.
- gamblor956 1y ago
  This isn't a copyright case, it's a trademark case. The issue is that some of the specific expressions of the elements may be extremely distinctive, and trademarked by a person (or company) for commercial use. In those situations, you can still use the element, but not the specific expression of that element that is trademarked because that specific expression is being used by another person for ongoing commercial activities. However, unlike copyright, trademarks die if they are not kept in relatively continuous commercial use, generally 3 years after last use. For example: the Winnie the Pooh horror movie. The specific version of Winnie the Pooh in the animated films is trademarked by Disney. The version that is a serial killer wearing a costume is not. Disney didn't bother to try and stop the film. So, if you wanted to make versions of the Toy Story character that don't look like the animated versions, you'd be in the clear once the copyright expires. But the Morgan and Morgan ad is different. They're attempting to use trademarked characters for their own commercial purposes. (And there's no clear parody of Steamboat Willie; in the original cartoon he causes a bunch of accidents that harm other characters including the character that would become Minnie, so what is the parody here?) Unless they've made a sizable donation to the judge's bank account, they have no chance of winning their motion as there is over a century of case law against. OTOH, given the current administration and the openness of his appointees to disregarding centuries of existing law, it's very possible that Morgan and Morgan expects to win this case. As an aside, Morgan and Morgan is generally regarded as the worst of the large personal injury law firms. In cases in which other PI firms sued the same defendants, the M&M plaintiffs got the smallest settlements, because M&M settles as early in the case as possible (usually before discovery) as their business model is based on quick, cheap settlements and they'll put heavy pressure on clients to accept the low-ball offers to avoid having to spend the time or labor costs of going through discovery. There are many complaints of M&M pressuring their own clients, fraudulent billing, withheld settlements, dropped cases, and bait-and-switch fees. They're the most sanctioned law firm in the country...by a lot...
  - kbelder 1y ago
    This is what's keeping me from working on my own "John Carter of Mars" game. The books (at least the first 5-6) are public domain, but Edgar Rice Burroughs, inc has John Carter, Dejah Thoris, etc., all trademarked, and can continue that indefinitely. I don't think it would be a slam dunk legal case, but it's enough to discourage me from trying (I've heard they are litigious).

That was the plan for years now. They made steamboat willie a part of their animation wing's trademark more than a decade ago: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MJkQ-1Jvf0g https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MJkQ-1Jvf0g

hamdingers 1y ago

Am I wrong in thinking this makes more sense than decades/centuries long copyrights? Let the copyright on a work expire so I can share my copy of Toy Story with my friends, but retain a trademark on the characters so that I can't go around making new Toy Story movies (or theme parks or pajamas).

cool_dude85 1y ago
But why shouldn't you be able to make a new Toy Story movie 100 years, give or take, after the original?
- worik 1y ago
  Yes But ten years A decade is enough IP is a trade off, and the balance is wonky
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- hamdingers 1y ago
  Depends, is there still a Disney making official Toy Story products that your products could be confused with? If not, fair game.
themafia 1y ago
With the copyright expired you can do more than share. You could make copies and then sell them.
Terr_ 1y ago
> retain a trademark on the characters so that I can't go around making new Toy Story movies Here's a quick thought experiment: Suppose I create a small movie company based on another character also in the public domain, and I successfully receive a trademark for my logo, which is... Jesus Christ. Does/Should that give me control over anyone selling or distributing other books, movies, pictures, and songs depicting Jesus? In a sane world, the answer is "heck no", because trademarks are really about stopping fraud, where someone else is trying to leech off my good reputation by confusing people into doing business with them instead. Now, one might plausibly argue that Jesus is "generic" and thus the original trademark was wrongly granted, but the same principles apply even if I rebrand under just one of the less-popular characters or symbols. ("As the owner Pontius Pilate Productions, your story violates my trademark!")
- marcosdumay 1y ago
  You can't get the trademark on the parts that are in common use, and you can't the trademark in a way that harms language. You can get protection over stuff that you invented and doesn't limit how people talk to each other. On this case specifically, you can't make a Mickey Mouse cartoon in a way that looks like it came from Disney. That's all that the trademark protects.
- zdragnar 1y ago
  There's not much point to the thought exercise. You wouldn't get the trademark in the first place.
  - Terr_ 1y ago
    > There's not much point to the thought exercise. You wouldn't get the trademark in the first place. My brother in Jesus Christ paperwork, even now there are already 236 active and formally-registered trademarks which have been granted involving "Jesus Christ", 18 if you limit it to "wordmarks." [0] Also, as per the concurrent(?) edited-in last paragraph, the basic idea remains even if the scope is, er, less-grandiose. [0] https://tmsearch.uspto.gov/search/ https://tmsearch.uspto.gov/search/
smelendez 1y ago
I’d rather a trademark approach that says you can use the characters but you can’t call it Toy Story, Disney, Pixar, etc.
gamblor956 1y ago
This isn't a copyright case, it's a trademark case. The issue is that some of the specific expressions of the elements may be extremely distinctive, and trademarked by a person (or company) for commercial use. In those situations, you can still use the element, but not the specific expression of that element that is trademarked because that specific expression is being used by another person for ongoing commercial activities. However, unlike copyright, trademarks die if they are not kept in relatively continuous commercial use, generally 3 years after last use. For example: the Winnie the Pooh horror movie. The specific version of Winnie the Pooh in the animated films is trademarked by Disney. The version that is a serial killer wearing a costume is not. Disney didn't bother to try and stop the film. So, if you wanted to make versions of the Toy Story character that don't look like the animated versions, you'd be in the clear once the copyright expires. But the Morgan and Morgan ad is different. They're attempting to use trademarked characters for their own commercial purposes. (And there's no clear parody of Steamboat Willie; in the original cartoon he causes a bunch of accidents that harm other characters including the character that would become Minnie, so what is the parody here?) Unless they've made a sizable donation to the judge's bank account, they have no chance of winning their motion as there is over a century of case law against. OTOH, given the current administration and the openness of his appointees to disregarding centuries of existing law, it's very possible that Morgan and Morgan expects to win this case. As an aside, Morgan and Morgan is generally regarded as the worst of the large personal injury law firms. In cases in which other PI firms sued the same defendants, the M&M plaintiffs got the smallest settlements, because M&M settles as early in the case as possible (usually before discovery) as their business model is based on quick, cheap settlements and they'll put heavy pressure on clients to accept the low-ball offers to avoid having to spend the time or labor costs of going through discovery. There are many complaints of M&M pressuring their own clients, fraudulent billing, withheld settlements, dropped cases, and bait-and-switch fees. They're the most sanctioned law firm in the country...by a lot...
- kbelder 1y ago
  This is what's keeping me from working on my own "John Carter of Mars" game. The books (at least the first 5-6) are public domain, but Edgar Rice Burroughs, inc has John Carter, Dejah Thoris, etc., all trademarked, and can continue that indefinitely. I don't think it would be a slam dunk legal case, but it's enough to discourage me from trying (I've heard they are litigious).