5 ms·

From the reuters table it seems that the biggest H1B beneficiaries are FAANG. Do you suggest that they check the immigration status and offer to some people lo

From the reuters table it seems that the biggest H1B beneficiaries are FAANG. Do you suggest that they check the immigration status and offer to some people lower compensation because of their status?

mothballed 1y ago
No need to check immigration status. If they're non-white and have an accent it's already a tell you can lowball them. You'd probably skip over some white europeans with solid English, but lets be real, those people can fake being a US citizen easy enough with some trivially obtained paperwork.
- whatever1 1y ago
  It appears that you have a strong case of discrimination. You should consider filing a lawsuit. This is precisely what HR and hiring managers at FAANG companies are instructed and trained to avoid.
  - mothballed 1y ago
    I'm speaking in a hypothetical, not something I've witnessed. I doubt anyone ever witnesses it willfully happen. All that is necessary is the incentives be in place for 1) Hiring manager to have incentive to hire quality talent at the most economical price 2) Foreign talent be more desperate than domestic talent The effect is practically guaranteed even if there is exactly zero intent by the hiring manager or any conscious 'discrimination.' Incentives beget results and people may not ponder how they got there, and they often don't. Unless you change (1) or (2) all the discrimination legislation, lawsuits, and 'training' in the world isn't worth the paper it is written on.
- conartist6 1y ago
  That would be highly illegal: it'd be discrimination on the basis of race (which is protected under the law) rather than on the basis of immigration status (which is not protected).
  - mothballed 1y ago
    For it to be illegal you have to prove intent. The incentives ensure that it will happen with zero intent, and probably without the people doing it even realize they're doing it. It's not illegal to see someone, think of them as a 'sucker' but not even realize why, then lowball them, which is far more likely than for a person to actually consciously confront themselves they may be a racist. In any case, even if they know it's illegal, it's not so easy to enforce, the fact that people get successfully sued or jailed a small fraction of the time isn't going to be some solace. The only way to actually solve it is to remove the incentive in place, namely either the market pressure to get the best developer at the cheapest price or the vulnerability of being an immigrant.
  - Amezarak 1y ago
    We've all seen hiring managers that coincidentally hired only or nearly only their fellow countrymen, and nothing happens to them, even though it is highly illegal.
- mlrtime 1y ago
  The casual racism against white people that we normalize is sick. I understand the current situation and the past, but it doesn't make it right.
  - femiagbabiaka 1y ago
    lol
conartist6 1y ago
If you already have an immigration status that allows you to work in the US then you're free to advocate for your worth by engaging with the job market. If a company has to sponsor you for an H1B though you'll be locked to one employer, and that lack of options is what means they don't need to give you market rates. But yes, as far as I know companies would usually offer an H1B applicant lower salary. They know the candidate will need visa sponsorship because the candidate has to say up front (usually in the first conversation) if they are authorized to work in the US. If the companies know they will have to undertake costly sponsorship, and as far as I know employment law leaves them quite free to offer a lower salary: foreign nationals are not a protected class so salary discrimination on the basis of who will need visa sponsorship is just to be expected in the current system...
- zaptheimpaler 1y ago
  The basic mechanics you're assuming are wrong - H1B is not locked to an employer, it can be easily transferred between employers. H1B is tied to having AN employer, but employees are free to switch between employers to get market rates and they do.
  - conartist6 1y ago
    My understanding was that by changing jobs you could "lose your place in line" potentially costing you years of waiting in your overall immigration process.
    - kimixa 1y ago
      That is true if you have something like an ongoing green card petition. However, if it's just an H1B, by the time it's approved and can transfer it, there's not really a "line" anymore. Though there's pretty hard limitations on what you can transfer with - it has to be the same sector, similar limitations on minimum salary, and requires work on the new employer's part to move the H1B to them (so you can't keep it quiet, and it's another barrier as it's non-zero cost for lawyers etc. to actually do that).
    - 1y ago
xp84 1y ago
Are you suggesting that those companies don't know they're hiring H-1B workers? It just sort of happens to them? If they offer below-market (for American workers) salaries and get no sufficiently-qualified domestic candidates, as they're required to promise they do, it's no surprise to anyone that they're hiring a ton of H-1Bs. They want that because they want to pay less. I don't blame them for doing what's fiscally advantageous for the shareholders up till now -- but I think I'll be glad to see this change implemented, if it is, because I know companies write on those forms "domestic talent not found" when they know the truth is "domestic talent not available at the wages we'd like to pay".
- maest 1y ago
  FAANG offers sub market salaries? American citizens turn their nose at FAANG jobs because of the low pay? What?
  - mlrtime 1y ago
    FAANG relative to FAANG, not FAANG relative to a barista at Starbucks. You get how this works right?
    - taiwan_num1 1y ago
      FAANG offers the exact same salaries to US citizens and those who need sponsorship. And speaking from personal experience, the majority of the Chinese and Indian immigrants at Meta are extremely talented and tremendously hard working. The best Americans are obsessed with startups and entrepreneurship and aren’t satisfied with being cogs in the machine the way H1B seekers are. I’m not saying the system is perfect, we definitely need to work on clearing out these fraudulent consultancies and such. But FAANG H1Bs are good engineers and we would definitely be worse off without them. I much preferred the proposal to only allow H1B after a certain salary threshold of ~200-250k which seems like it would solve the issue.
      - Schnitz 1y ago
        The issue that needs fixing with the H1 program isn’t FAANG, it’s Infosys etc.
smsm42 1y ago
What do you mean "suggest"? Every single job application I've ever seen has a question about citizenship/status. And of course they'd know whether they need to file legal papers to employ you as H1B or not - it's not like it somehow happens in secret. They know who's visa worker and who's not.
jb1991 1y ago
I can’t quite follow the logic of your question, it seems maybe you either don’t understand my comment or you don’t understand how this visa works.
geodel 1y ago
It is useless statistics. In 2024 out of all H1B approved only 2% are for FAANG(~7K out of 400K). The whole debate is about remaining ~95% (adding another 3% for truly hi-tech work). Thats where H1B abuse happening. Promoters of H1B keep talking about highly talented H1Bs while ignoring a mass hired at very low end of tech jobs.

mothballed 1y ago

No need to check immigration status. If they're non-white and have an accent it's already a tell you can lowball them. You'd probably skip over some white europeans with solid English, but lets be real, those people can fake being a US citizen easy enough with some trivially obtained paperwork.

whatever1 1y ago
It appears that you have a strong case of discrimination. You should consider filing a lawsuit. This is precisely what HR and hiring managers at FAANG companies are instructed and trained to avoid.
- mothballed 1y ago
  I'm speaking in a hypothetical, not something I've witnessed. I doubt anyone ever witnesses it willfully happen. All that is necessary is the incentives be in place for 1) Hiring manager to have incentive to hire quality talent at the most economical price 2) Foreign talent be more desperate than domestic talent The effect is practically guaranteed even if there is exactly zero intent by the hiring manager or any conscious 'discrimination.' Incentives beget results and people may not ponder how they got there, and they often don't. Unless you change (1) or (2) all the discrimination legislation, lawsuits, and 'training' in the world isn't worth the paper it is written on.
conartist6 1y ago
That would be highly illegal: it'd be discrimination on the basis of race (which is protected under the law) rather than on the basis of immigration status (which is not protected).
- mothballed 1y ago
  For it to be illegal you have to prove intent. The incentives ensure that it will happen with zero intent, and probably without the people doing it even realize they're doing it. It's not illegal to see someone, think of them as a 'sucker' but not even realize why, then lowball them, which is far more likely than for a person to actually consciously confront themselves they may be a racist. In any case, even if they know it's illegal, it's not so easy to enforce, the fact that people get successfully sued or jailed a small fraction of the time isn't going to be some solace. The only way to actually solve it is to remove the incentive in place, namely either the market pressure to get the best developer at the cheapest price or the vulnerability of being an immigrant.
- Amezarak 1y ago
  We've all seen hiring managers that coincidentally hired only or nearly only their fellow countrymen, and nothing happens to them, even though it is highly illegal.
mlrtime 1y ago
The casual racism against white people that we normalize is sick. I understand the current situation and the past, but it doesn't make it right.
- femiagbabiaka 1y ago
  lol

conartist6 1y ago

If you already have an immigration status that allows you to work in the US then you're free to advocate for your worth by engaging with the job market. If a company has to sponsor you for an H1B though you'll be locked to one employer, and that lack of options is what means they don't need to give you market rates. But yes, as far as I know companies would usually offer an H1B applicant lower salary. They know the candidate will need visa sponsorship because the candidate has to say up front (usually in the first conversation) if they are authorized to work in the US. If the companies know they will have to undertake costly sponsorship, and as far as I know employment law leaves them quite free to offer a lower salary: foreign nationals are not a protected class so salary discrimination on the basis of who will need visa sponsorship is just to be expected in the current system...

zaptheimpaler 1y ago
The basic mechanics you're assuming are wrong - H1B is not locked to an employer, it can be easily transferred between employers. H1B is tied to having AN employer, but employees are free to switch between employers to get market rates and they do.
- conartist6 1y ago
  My understanding was that by changing jobs you could "lose your place in line" potentially costing you years of waiting in your overall immigration process.
  - kimixa 1y ago
    That is true if you have something like an ongoing green card petition. However, if it's just an H1B, by the time it's approved and can transfer it, there's not really a "line" anymore. Though there's pretty hard limitations on what you can transfer with - it has to be the same sector, similar limitations on minimum salary, and requires work on the new employer's part to move the H1B to them (so you can't keep it quiet, and it's another barrier as it's non-zero cost for lawyers etc. to actually do that).
  - 1y ago

xp84 1y ago

Are you suggesting that those companies don't know they're hiring H-1B workers? It just sort of happens to them? If they offer below-market (for American workers) salaries and get no sufficiently-qualified domestic candidates, as they're required to promise they do, it's no surprise to anyone that they're hiring a ton of H-1Bs. They want that because they want to pay less. I don't blame them for doing what's fiscally advantageous for the shareholders up till now -- but I think I'll be glad to see this change implemented, if it is, because I know companies write on those forms "domestic talent not found" when they know the truth is "domestic talent not available at the wages we'd like to pay".

maest 1y ago
FAANG offers sub market salaries? American citizens turn their nose at FAANG jobs because of the low pay? What?
- mlrtime 1y ago
  FAANG relative to FAANG, not FAANG relative to a barista at Starbucks. You get how this works right?
  - taiwan_num1 1y ago
    FAANG offers the exact same salaries to US citizens and those who need sponsorship. And speaking from personal experience, the majority of the Chinese and Indian immigrants at Meta are extremely talented and tremendously hard working. The best Americans are obsessed with startups and entrepreneurship and aren’t satisfied with being cogs in the machine the way H1B seekers are. I’m not saying the system is perfect, we definitely need to work on clearing out these fraudulent consultancies and such. But FAANG H1Bs are good engineers and we would definitely be worse off without them. I much preferred the proposal to only allow H1B after a certain salary threshold of ~200-250k which seems like it would solve the issue.
    - Schnitz 1y ago
      The issue that needs fixing with the H1 program isn’t FAANG, it’s Infosys etc.

smsm42 1y ago

What do you mean "suggest"? Every single job application I've ever seen has a question about citizenship/status. And of course they'd know whether they need to file legal papers to employ you as H1B or not - it's not like it somehow happens in secret. They know who's visa worker and who's not.

jb1991 1y ago

I can’t quite follow the logic of your question, it seems maybe you either don’t understand my comment or you don’t understand how this visa works.

geodel 1y ago

It is useless statistics. In 2024 out of all H1B approved only 2% are for FAANG(~7K out of 400K). The whole debate is about remaining ~95% (adding another 3% for truly hi-tech work). Thats where H1B abuse happening. Promoters of H1B keep talking about highly talented H1Bs while ignoring a mass hired at very low end of tech jobs.