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As always, so much zero-sum thinking in all these discussions. Often, the person may not have been as productive, happy, or well compensated in their own count
by davidw 1y ago
As always, so much zero-sum thinking in all these discussions.
Often, the person may not have been as productive, happy, or well compensated in their own country.
Also, over time, some of those people make money in the US and take that, their knowledge and skills and go back home to share there. Everyone is better off.
I was discussing this elsewhere, and dug up something I wrote 11 years ago, and I think I'm still pretty happy with it:
https://journal.dedasys.com/2014/12/29/people-places-and-jobs/ https://journal.dedasys.com/2014/12/29/people-places-and-job...
- ericmay 1y ago> Also, over time, some of those people make money in the US and take that, their knowledge and skills and go back home to share there. Everyone is better off. How are Americans better off in this scenario?
- aianus 1y agoAmerican companies are overwhelmingly owned and operated by Americans who can extract value from the H1B employees well in excess of their salaries (even with the new cap and fees)
- ericmay 1y agoSure, in theory. Where are the financial figures to demonstrate?
- harimau777 1y agoThat helps those few individuals who own those businesses. However, it doesn't help your average American worker much.
- pastel8739 1y agoThe more smart people we have working on the world's hardest problems, the more likely it is that we'll have breakthroughs that make the world better
- ericmay 1y agoAre the folks utilizing the H1B visa program working on the world's hardest problems? Or are they working on lucrative problems? Some kind of mix? Does anyone know what the breakdown is of H1B visa holders working on the world's hardest problems either today or historically?
- kagakuninja 1y agoI'm 62, I've been a mid-tier engineer all my life, working with tons of H1Bs starting in the '90s. My current employer is 90% Indian contractors now. None of us are working on "The world's hardest problems", we are building bog standard micro services.
- kelnos 1y agoThey generated economic activity while they were in the US, no? That seems to be a net positive. You'd otherwise have to be able to argue that, if you replaced them with a US citizen during the time they were here, the greater economic activity would have been generated.
- ericmay 1y agoPlease keep in mind I am specifically asking about what the OP wrote, not about immigration in general.
- confidantlake 1y agoIf you gave me a million dollars for a piece of paper and I gave you a million dollars for a different piece of paper we just generated $2 million in economic activity. It seems like a stretch to call it a net positive. Economic activity is a poor measure.
- Wilduck 1y agoA few ways: 1. An American company benefited from their labor 2. American consumers benefited from the goods / services they contributed to providing 3. American citizens benefited from the services provided by the taxes they pay 4. Other American businesses benefited from their patronage
- ericmay 1y agoThat doesn't seem to be specific to H1B visa issuance does it? This seems to me to be more of a general argument in favor of immigration in general to spur economic activity, which as far as I'm aware is "correct", provided you have to also show your math with things like a potential rise in housing costs/rent, strains on services, perhaps some folks don't actually pay taxes, etc. Some of those items might be short term or temporary, some may not. I don't know. But if we were to take your argument at face value and I generally do because that's what the economists say and makes sense to me, why don't other countries encourage this specific type of immigration? China, for example, or perhaps Japan or Korea? What about New Zealand or Switzerland?
- dahinds 1y agoAll the countries you mention offer temporary work visas for skilled workers, of varying similarity to an H1B.
- ericmay 1y agoSure, I agree, I guess what I’m trying to understand is why don’t they have even higher rates of skilled worker immigration? Think back to what the person I replied to said about the economic benefits of immigration in general (again which I believe are true based on what I understand). For that matter we can just say the United States offers temporary work visas for skilled workers through the H1B program. Case closed! In the case of maybe New Zealand or Switzerland they represent less than 1% of the global population, most of the talent lives outside of those two countries. Are they importing enough high skilled foreign workers? I’m not sure. Switzerland for examples seems very expensive to immigrate to and get citizenship. But I’m not an expert there, just what I’ve skimmed through online. Or is there more to it?
- RealityVoid 1y agoI greatly enjoyed your article and it saddens me the rise of this "us vs them" mentality. But people that think like you still give me hope.
- davidw 1y agoWhy thank you! That's kind of you to write. I'm from the US, but lived in Europe for quite a while, and my kids have dual citizenship. I think that people moving to places where they are better off is a good thing.
- kalkin 1y agoThe weirdest thing about the zero-sum rhetoric to me is: when one person is demanding to benefit at the expense of someone else, if I'm neither of them, why am I supposed to care? Suppose I'm not an American--like plenty of HN commenters--or alternatively that (as in reality) I am an American but I have good reasons to think that the personal benefit I derive from the presence of immigrants is greater than the cost to me as an individual, even were I to concede more generic economic arguments about wage competition. Then... why am I supposed to prioritize the interests of American tech workers over foreign immigrants? I don't in general endorse an "I got mine, screw you" approach, nor one that says "hey GDP is going up so screw the losers", but if someone else is taking exactly that attitude just with a nationalistic inflection, it's hard to extend them a lot of empathy.
- davidw 1y agoAlso: whatever you think of this issue, it's very much r/LeopardsAteMyFace in terms of some of the big tech companies cozying up to the administration.
- baobabKoodaa 1y agoIs it? When you consider that Trump can exempt the corpos that cozied up to him.
- davidw 1y agoGood point. Looks like it's just more corruption and a way to exert leverage on companies.