4 ms·

Right up until the end I'd say it's a good illustration of the hedonic treadmill. But I'm really not sure what to make of the ending. > "Oh," he said, "she wa

Right up until the end I'd say it's a good illustration of the hedonic treadmill. But I'm really not sure what to make of the ending. > "Oh," he said, "she wants to become like God." > "Go home. She is sitting in her filthy shack again." This is ambiguous. The flounder simply acknowledges a change in state without saying whether he actually fulfilled the request or not. If he rejected the request, then it's a tale about checking ambition, trying to be like God, etc. But if he accepted the request? Then it's advancing a very different idea of what God is like. I wonder if the original German is equally ambiguous... EDIT: I suppose she's not making the sun and moon rise, so maybe I'm overcomplicating it.

RajT88 1y ago
In the New Testament, Jesus had a lot to say about wealth and power being bad. This feels like a reference to all that. In my head, all that Sunday school I had internalized as a kid makes me think, "This is not the kind of church Jesus would preach at" when I see a really nice church where wealthy people attend. Some Christians talk about "mammonites" or "the cult of mammon": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammon
- potato3732842 1y ago
  Pretty much every society ever has the same things to say about how wealth/power enables people to behave poorly.
- zubiaur 1y ago
  Old too: But the people refused to listen to the voice of Samuel; they said, “No! but we are determined to have a king over us, so that we also may be like other nations, and that our king may govern us and go out before us and fight our battles.”
- Brendinooo 1y ago
  I don't think it's as simple as "wealth and power being bad". More that - wealth and power are not reliable proxies for favor and righteousness (as many in Jesus's day thought) - wealth and power come with unique temptations Jesus also said "make friends for yourselves by means of unrighteous wealth, so that when it fails they may receive you into the eternal dwellings" and there's a bunch of proverbs that talk about how the diligent prosper. A lot of wealthy people are really generous.
  - IAmBroom 1y ago
    I think Jesus is really, really, really unequivocal about wealth being bad. And Luke 16:9, which you quoted, is taken out of context. > A lot of wealthy people are really generous. Not so much that they give away all that they have, as Jesus commanded. So, more like "kinda really generous, but not enough that it hurts". [I am an atheist, but I will not stand for antithetical repurposing of religious texts.]
    - Brendinooo 1y ago
      >And Luke 16:9, which you quoted, is taken out of context. What context am I missing? >Not so much that they give away all that they have, as Jesus commanded Matthew 19:16-30, which you're quoting, is taken out of context. https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/does-jesus-teach-us-to-sell-all-our-possessions https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/does-jesus-teach-us-t...
the_gipsy 1y ago
We don't know exactly. Maybe the fish silently punished the wife. Maybe god would simply live a simple life. Only God knows.
- IAmBroom 1y ago
  Ooh, I like that possibility. Maybe she spent a near-eternity in agony with all that power and responsibility, and wished it all away. "Genie...er, Fish, make me an all-powerful fish!!!"
graemep 1y ago
Maybe the ambiguity is part of what makes it a good story?
dtf 1y ago
The punchline left me wondering why the wife didn't simply ask for something else after being returned to the filthy shack. Had she finally found contentment or enlightenment? Did the flounder finally call time?
palmotea 1y ago
> But I'm really not sure what to make of the ending. >> "Oh," he said, "she wants to become like God." >> "Go home. She is sitting in her filthy shack again." Jesus was poor and humble and God. Like, remember which cup the Holy Grail was in the test at the end of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade? She exactly got her wish, it just wasn't what she expected because she was a greedy fool. Edit: and this take is interesting: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45303908 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45303908. It might even be a happy ending for her.
Zickzack 1y ago
> I wonder if the original German is equally ambiguous... The translation is good and authentic. Those who can read Low German[1] can compare the slightly different versions here[2]. In their comments[3 (German)], the brothers Grimm state that the storyline of a woman who pushes her husband for too much is ages old and known in many cultures. They have picked the richest German version. If a Straussian reading is needed, then it should be considered that a Low German story from a coastal - hence Protestant - region rates the pope higher than the king. [1] Low German was a way of getting crap[4] past the radar for the Grimms. Compared to the Juniper Tree[5] (Van den Machandelboom - Low German, again), this fairy tale is harmless. [2] https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Vom_Fischer_und_seiner_Frau https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Vom_Fischer_und_seiner_Frau [3] https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Kinder-_und_Haus-M%C3%A4rchen_Band_3_(1856)/Anmerkungen#19 https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Kinder-_und_Haus-M%C3%A4rchen... [4] What he translates as "filthy shack" is literally a "pissing pot", i.e. a chamber pot. He seems to have a hard time telling it as it is. Maybe, the Straussian reading makes sense. [5] https://sites.pitt.edu/~dash/grimm047.html https://sites.pitt.edu/~dash/grimm047.html - you have been warned.

RajT88 1y ago

In the New Testament, Jesus had a lot to say about wealth and power being bad. This feels like a reference to all that. In my head, all that Sunday school I had internalized as a kid makes me think, "This is not the kind of church Jesus would preach at" when I see a really nice church where wealthy people attend. Some Christians talk about "mammonites" or "the cult of mammon": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammon

potato3732842 1y ago
Pretty much every society ever has the same things to say about how wealth/power enables people to behave poorly.
zubiaur 1y ago
Old too: But the people refused to listen to the voice of Samuel; they said, “No! but we are determined to have a king over us, so that we also may be like other nations, and that our king may govern us and go out before us and fight our battles.”
Brendinooo 1y ago
I don't think it's as simple as "wealth and power being bad". More that - wealth and power are not reliable proxies for favor and righteousness (as many in Jesus's day thought) - wealth and power come with unique temptations Jesus also said "make friends for yourselves by means of unrighteous wealth, so that when it fails they may receive you into the eternal dwellings" and there's a bunch of proverbs that talk about how the diligent prosper. A lot of wealthy people are really generous.
- IAmBroom 1y ago
  I think Jesus is really, really, really unequivocal about wealth being bad. And Luke 16:9, which you quoted, is taken out of context. > A lot of wealthy people are really generous. Not so much that they give away all that they have, as Jesus commanded. So, more like "kinda really generous, but not enough that it hurts". [I am an atheist, but I will not stand for antithetical repurposing of religious texts.]
  - Brendinooo 1y ago
    >And Luke 16:9, which you quoted, is taken out of context. What context am I missing? >Not so much that they give away all that they have, as Jesus commanded Matthew 19:16-30, which you're quoting, is taken out of context. https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/does-jesus-teach-us-to-sell-all-our-possessions https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/does-jesus-teach-us-t...

the_gipsy 1y ago

We don't know exactly. Maybe the fish silently punished the wife. Maybe god would simply live a simple life. Only God knows.

IAmBroom 1y ago
Ooh, I like that possibility. Maybe she spent a near-eternity in agony with all that power and responsibility, and wished it all away. "Genie...er, Fish, make me an all-powerful fish!!!"

graemep 1y ago

Maybe the ambiguity is part of what makes it a good story?

dtf 1y ago

The punchline left me wondering why the wife didn't simply ask for something else after being returned to the filthy shack. Had she finally found contentment or enlightenment? Did the flounder finally call time?

palmotea 1y ago

> But I'm really not sure what to make of the ending. >> "Oh," he said, "she wants to become like God." >> "Go home. She is sitting in her filthy shack again." Jesus was poor and humble and God. Like, remember which cup the Holy Grail was in the test at the end of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade? She exactly got her wish, it just wasn't what she expected because she was a greedy fool. Edit: and this take is interesting: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45303908 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45303908. It might even be a happy ending for her.

Zickzack 1y ago

> I wonder if the original German is equally ambiguous... The translation is good and authentic. Those who can read Low German[1] can compare the slightly different versions here[2]. In their comments[3 (German)], the brothers Grimm state that the storyline of a woman who pushes her husband for too much is ages old and known in many cultures. They have picked the richest German version. If a Straussian reading is needed, then it should be considered that a Low German story from a coastal - hence Protestant - region rates the pope higher than the king. [1] Low German was a way of getting crap[4] past the radar for the Grimms. Compared to the Juniper Tree[5] (Van den Machandelboom - Low German, again), this fairy tale is harmless. [2] https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Vom_Fischer_und_seiner_Frau https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Vom_Fischer_und_seiner_Frau [3] https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Kinder-_und_Haus-M%C3%A4rchen_Band_3_(1856)/Anmerkungen#19 https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Kinder-_und_Haus-M%C3%A4rchen... [4] What he translates as "filthy shack" is literally a "pissing pot", i.e. a chamber pot. He seems to have a hard time telling it as it is. Maybe, the Straussian reading makes sense. [5] https://sites.pitt.edu/~dash/grimm047.html https://sites.pitt.edu/~dash/grimm047.html - you have been warned.