5 ms·

Not Buying American Anymore

150 points by gchamonlive 1y ago

gchamonlive 1y ago
This is me ranting and venting after watching too much Louis Rossmann on Youtube, but I think there is some merit in the points I made in the post, hopefully it'll resonate with some of you. I expect this post to be aggravating to some, just because it heavily criticizes liberal democracies with unreasonably week market regulations.
- A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 1y ago
  Rossmann is doing some good work bringing awareness to this issue. A lot of people on this forum dabble in a lot of different spheres and I suspect most have been affected by what he describes on a semi-regular basis.
  - kevin_thibedeau 1y ago
    He is doing some good but he becomes a hypocrite when first arguing for legal frameworks to enforce fair dealing in product access and repairability then turns around and espouses depriving content creators of their income.
    - widowlark 1y ago
      Paradox of tolerance
    - kg 1y ago
      I assume this is about adblock. In that case, the PC owner/user's right to control their own hardware takes priority over the content creator's desire to control other people's hardware. Without that fundamental rule, it becomes possible for i.e. John Deere to dictate how you can repair or modify your own equipment, if they allow you to do it at all. It's unpleasant and I really feel for the content creators whose livelihoods are impacted but we've already seen how bad it is to restrict end users' autonomy.
      - kevin_thibedeau 1y ago
        Adblock is not an issue. He hawks piracy tools.
        A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 1y ago
        Can you elaborate? This is the first time I hear about this part.
        IncreasePosts 1y ago
        What piracy tools? I asked gemini (because no way am I sifting through his million hours of video), and all it could come up with is that he talks about a certain DVD player that, I guess, has faulty firmware that bypasses region restrictions. And he has a "garage full of them" (per gemini)
- _3u10 1y ago
  It is strange that so many Brazilians choose to buy products in less regulated and protectionist Paraguay, why would so many Brazilian Drs choose to be educated in a "right-wing narco state". Why is there less inequality in unregulated Paraguay? What advantage is conveyed to people who travel from Floripa to CDE just to avoid the wonderful consumer protections offered in Brazil? Why would they do such a thing when given the opportunity to vote with their feet? How does paying twice as much for a car advantage the average Brazilian? Does it make it more affordable for them? Why do "poor" Paraguayans drive Mercedes and BMW when Brazilians choose Renault for the same price?
  - gchamonlive 1y ago
    Idk and I don't care. One mistake doesn't make another right. You can spend all your free time bashing on Brazilian policies and you'd be mostly right. Consumption is taxed as well as income, the rich pays laughably low taxes and corruption is still rampant with all the congressman taking a bite of public treasury. Still the point stands, Brazil has shown that his laws and regulations work better than US, not only when applying due process to judge and hold polítical figures accountable, but also to protect the consumer after purchase.
- IAmBroom 1y ago
  No, it's aggravating because it uses almost no evidence to blame group A for something groups B, C, and D through Z are guilty of. In fact, the primary evidence presented weirdly isn't from Group A at all. It's a nonsensical rant, dressed up in proper English format and syntax.
  - gchamonlive 1y ago
    Care to dismantle my arguments then? How is the US not an oligarchy, how an oligarchy doesn't devolve into the situation described, how US is not anti-consumer, how the ethos there wouldn't protect companies from being anti-consumers, how the Tesla, Google and Microsoft examples don't apply. If you are going to disagree with other people you should prepare your response better, otherwise you are just claiming stuff in English without any substance.
danishbread 1y ago
Is this 'don't buy American' or is it 'don't support economies with anti-consumer practices'?
- mingus88 1y ago
  It’s both. From the article > If I start buying European and they start behaving like the US does now, then this rant will just as easily apply to them.
  - IAmBroom 1y ago
    And yet... the article includes examples of European companies behaving like this. BTW, it's not about how the US behaves. It's about how many companies, some of which happen to be US-based, behave.
- gchamonlive 1y ago
  It could be about the later, but I'd have to research more to make such a general claim.
- m2f2 1y ago
  I guess it could be extended to any country with similari behavior. Take the attitude to selling your data at state, country level "just because". If US citizens love being scr@@d over good for them....
- insane_dreamer 1y ago
  > All this points to a very clear trend, at least for me, that the US is openly an oligarchy. I read it as don't support oligarchies.
mrits 1y ago
In the US we have always at least acted like we try to buy American made. It feels weird that the rest of the world is only now considering where their stuff is coming from.
- boh 1y ago
  Who's "we"? The "buy American" crowd has always been super niche and a very small minority.
  - mingus88 1y ago
    In my experience, the buy American crowd says one thing but without exception simply buys the cheapest thing always What they want is for the best deal to be the local deal, but they are not well off enough to actually take a principled stance on it
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
  - kevin_thibedeau 1y ago
    Wal-Mart made it a marketing campaign in the 80s. Much of their inventory was US produced with prominent signs all over their stores.
    - boh 1y ago
      A marketing campaign from 40 years ago doesn't qualify as a predominant culture.
  - mrits 1y ago
    It was the initiative of the largest retailer. You have had to live in a bubble to not know this.
- gchamonlive 1y ago
  I'm not making a point only to buy local. I'm making a point not to buy American today, if things don't improve.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
_3u10 1y ago
I love visiting Brazil, but it’s not like paying 3x the price for an iPhone means you’re less likely to get it stolen in Foz vs CDE (where presumably they bought the phone) If the writer of the article is here I’m interested in why there’s far more consumer protection southern red states like Santa Catarina vs northern blue states. How come things just don’t get stolen as often there in the Bolsonaro areas? If your answer is poverty i refer you to CDE vs Foz.
- akagusu 1y ago
  In Brazil consumer protections law are federal laws, not state laws, so there is no different levels of consumer protection between states
hn_throw_250915 1y ago
The most fascinating thing in this self-aware rant is that Reason is still around. I haven’t heard of their DAW in what must be 20 years. n.b. They were shamelessly anticonsumer all along even in the early days. That’s why we just moved on from them and, to me anyway, they fell into obscurity.
- fidotron 1y ago
  He doesn't seem to realize they aren't American either.
  - gchamonlive 1y ago
    I do, and it doesn't hurt the point in the article because the rant isn't directed at all the companies that are anti-consumer. It's directed at the bad example the US market sets for the entire world. It's the leading market, the richest country in the world. In other words, if US companies didn't misbehave and US were still the largest market in the world, would other companies like Reason be bold enough to screw consumers? Let's not be cynical here. What happens in the US ripples across the entire free world just because it's in a position of economical and political leadership that it carved for itself by means of force and influence since the great world wars.
    - fidotron 1y ago
      > it doesn't hurt the point in the article Your assertions do not make something true.
      - gchamonlive 1y ago
        If you'd care to elaborate maybe I can clarify
OGEnthusiast 1y ago
Does this mean not buying from American companies, or things that were made in America? E.g. would this person consider buying a MacBook from Apple that's entirely manufactured in China to be "buying American"?
- happytoexplain 1y ago
  Is there a reason you think that might not count? Obviously the point of not buying X is to avoid supporting X for long-term moral and practical reasons, despite the product's convenience/cheapness/quality/whatever.
  - OGEnthusiast 1y ago
    It was a genuine question, since I imagine it would be difficult to be a tech enthusiast while having your entire personal supply chain be free of any US-based company. Regardless, kudos to people who try.
    - lucianbr 1y ago
      It does not have to be all or nothing. You can probably aim to reduce the degree of "US-made-ness" of your tech gadgets. I don't know how effective that is, but it's an option that's available.
    - em-bee 1y ago
      the question is who makes the profit. for apple products most of the profit goes to the US. for others, eg. lenovo most of the profits go to hong kong/china. maybe you can avoid US components with ARM based computers, or loongson, the chinese CPU.
- lucianbr 1y ago
  The author seems to think american companies are anti-consumer. That would certainly include Apple, no matter where a given product is made. Iphones are locked down due to decisions made by Apple execs and employees living and woking in the US, regardless where they are fabricated. It's the lockdown that matters, not where the factory is located. I don't see why you would even think the geographical location of the manufacturing plant matters.
yupitsme123 1y ago
It's interesting to me that a country that loves consumerism so much doesn't have a pro-consumer movement. It looks like Ralph Nader led one for a while back in the '70s but it's long dead now. If someone were to revive such a movement or if some politicians were to attach themselves to it then I think it would be hugely popular.
- kg 1y ago
  Approval rate doesn't seem to be much of a concern for modern western politicians. The current administrations in the US and some other western countries have abysmally low approval ratings and they're still in power. (This is not a value judgment of the administrations or people who voted for them, just an observation).
- woodruffw 1y ago
  I think Steinbeck’s quip about temporarily embarrassed millionaires has a parallel in how Americans perceive their consumerism: Americans don’t see themselves as a consumer culture, even though we are one.
- em-bee 1y ago
  consumerism is for the benefit of the corporations, not the consumer. it's to get people to consume more. being pro-consumer leads to things like warranty, forcing me to make my products last longer which leads to people buying less.
  - em-bee 1y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumerism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumerism
- nozzlegear 1y ago
  > If someone were to revive such a movement or if some politicians were to attach themselves to it then I think it would be hugely popular. Senator Elizabeth Warren's whole schtick was, and still is, pro-consumer. She practically built the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau with her own two hands. Sadly the CFPB has now been hamstrung by DOGE and the Trump admin; it's been stripped of much of its capacity to enforce its rules, conduct investigations and protect consumers.
boh 1y ago
No shade to the poster but we don't really make much, so not buying American is very easy. Besides tomatoes and apples most people in the US probably don't even own anything made here.
- lucianbr 1y ago
  Would you call iPhones chinese and not american? No matter, I think obviously people would consider them american, and importantly, the way they function and respect or trample consumer rights is decided by american citizens. Maybe the US doesn't make much per se, but it certainly decides and influences much.
- nine_k 1y ago
  A ton of people own iPhones, drive Fords and Chevrolets, and buy a lot of local produce. Anybody lucky enough to own a house also own a locally-produced one.
  - boh 1y ago
    Things not made in America don't count as things made in America.
- gchamonlive 1y ago
  US produces a lot of digital goods. A lot of high quality digital goods to be precise, which makes this a tragedy. I want so much to just buy Apple products and have the best setup for music production, but I just can't because of what I laid out in the post.
0xbadcafebee 1y ago
The USA isn't a traditional oligarchy. It does have different levels and kinds of power. Most of them are corporate, but some are purely political or ideological (like Trump's regime). Our oligarchy is more like a collection of oligopolies that all share an interest in the political state and economy. After Trump goes away, they will work towards preventing a single leader from working against their interests again. It's all about soft power.
- gchamonlive 1y ago
  > After Trump goes away, they will work towards preventing a single leader from working against their interests again. I read it like "let's try to create a more tame Trump", and not like "let's elect leaders that represent the people's interest just as well as ours".
giancarlostoro 1y ago
So... they wrote American but they are confusing anti-consumer tactics with an entire country, even though they were not going for that. Just want to point out: * Samsung has been accused of releasing software updates that degrade performance, forcing you to buy newer devices - Samsung is not American * Brother - Japanese printer maker, I LOVE their printers mind you, but they've released firmware upgrades that prevent or degrade compatibility with third party ink cartridges * Epson - Also Japanese, also have owned some of their printers, same thing with third party ink cartridges. I'm sure there's many more companies, not from the US who do equally if not worse evils with software / hardware. What the author is after isn't American products, just anti-consumerism, which can be impossible to predict mind you. Anyone of any country can do it.
- fidotron 1y ago
  And his direct example, Reason, is Swedish!
  - gchamonlive 1y ago
    That's what prompted the rest of the research, doesn't need to be American the point stands.
    - fidotron 1y ago
      So you will continue to buy Swedish?
      - gchamonlive 1y ago
        Yes. Is that hypocrisy? No, because I'm not advocating for any extreme form of consuming veganism. I'm advocating for a message. If the message is strong and clear that companies can't employ anti-consumer practices without consequences, then maybe other companies like Reason that operates outside the US will think twice before doing it, even if the laws under which they operate would allow them to. Why target American products then? It's not accidental. US is by far the largest market and as such has the responsibility to set an example. If we change the example being set that will likely ripple to other markets.
aelaguiz 1y ago
The irony of posting this on the literal celebration of upwards mobility and capitalism that is YC is delicious.
- gchamonlive 1y ago
  I won't lie that I had HN partially in mind when I wrote the post. It honestly started as a way for me to vent, but I thought what the hell, lemme post there, it prolly won't even survive the New page without getting flagged. Didn't really think it would hit front page (but I really was expecting it to get flagged which it eventually did).
  - aelaguiz 1y ago
    Yes we all want the benefits produced by incentive structures that bring out the best of humanity with absolutely no harm or asymmetric benefit. This junk always gets attention because people don't read history therefore they have no basis for comparison.
    - gchamonlive 1y ago
      Yeah, maybe. Right now all I want is more accountability and less cynicism, so that I can trust that an agreement won't be changed after the fact.
1970-01-01 1y ago
>The people are never to blame. Hold here. They aren't. Immediately letting 'the people' off the hook for blame is a somewhat modern fallacy. These people democratically choose the leader. You can't just 'not blame' them, as a group, for an eventual failure if they consistently choose poorly.
- johnisgood 1y ago
  In their defense, they can only choose between this or that, and both of them are quite shitty, in the US.
  - thepryz 1y ago
    Sorry, but I find this to be an excuse. Voters can hold elected officials accountable by not re-electing politicians, not donating to them, and supporting candidates that will better represent them. The problem is that most citizens are not civically knowledgeable or engaged which is why we continue to have to choose the lesser of two evils that are often the same in policy.
    - ryandrake 1y ago
      The choice is between Anti Consumer Jerk #1 and Slightly Less Of An Anti Consumer Jerk #2. One of them is going to be in charge. There is no choice to simply not elect someone, and writing in a non-jerk is unrealistic.
      - thepryz 1y ago
        A civically informed and engaged population also has a choice to organize against the political establishment, run their own candidates, or create political action committees. The PAC can endorse and otherwise work to support a better candidate to win a primary (See David Hogg's Leaders We Deserve PAC), or if you don't mind getting a little dirty, the PAC can raise enough money to buy the politicians and bend them to their will. I do admit that this is more difficult for Presidential elections, but certainly this can be effective at the state and local level and arguably could be used effectively within Congress if done right. In fact, we might be seeing some of that begin to happen in states like Maine given the response Graham Platner has already received. Kat Abughazaleh is another example. She's a progressive who is taking a somewhat novel approach to her campaign in Chicago. And of course you have Zohran Mamdani in NYC mayoral race. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Platner https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Platner https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kat_Abughazaleh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kat_Abughazaleh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zohran_Mamdani https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zohran_Mamdani
AnotherGoodName 1y ago
I came to the same conclusion years ago. The best appliances and kitchenware I've ever bought were designed (not necessarily made) in countries which have strongly defended return policies. Thinking La Creuset, Breville, Bosch, etc. In general you get quality from the EU and the UK/Aus/Can/NZ countries where there's "you may return the product at any time for a full refund if it has a fault" type of laws and a consumer agency to help police enforcement (the law is worthless if the consumer has to take a store to court themselves). I'll also give a viewpoint that Japan and SK, like the USA, have fallen pretty far and i don't include them in the above group. If you look it up it appears stores can easily refuse refunds which is a recipe for crap products which explains the absolutely shit Sony and Samsung have been putting out the past decade.
bryanlarsen 1y ago
The Trump tariffs are killing American manufacturers so you will have fewer options to buy American in the future. https://www.starlinghome.io/ https://www.starlinghome.io/ shut down today.
- gchamonlive 1y ago
  That's disastrous and not the point of the post. I don't want to see the American economy gone, I want to see it serve the very people that makes it the behemoth it is.
GardenLetter27 1y ago
This is why I hate tariffs and extreme regulations so much. My Xiaomi vacuum cleaner is the best I've ever owned, but I can't purchase their electric car, and even if I could - it'd cost an extra 40% or so just on the tariffs. We need a free market with open competition. The best guarantor of rights is having the option to walk away and choose a different provider - in employment, and in services / retail purchases, etc.
- throwacct 1y ago
  "Free market with open competition" works when countries play fair. China doesn't play fair. What you propose is to decimate the car industry (your example) and be dependent on foreign actors. Extrapolate that to every industry, and now you have a shell of a country. Late-stage capitalism is equally bad as a "free-for-all" market.
- toomuchtodo 1y ago
  Would you be willing to share a link to that vacuum cleaner? I would like to leave Dyson behind forever.
  - GardenLetter27 1y ago
    I have the Xiaomi G10 Plus with mop - https://mistore.se/products/xiaomi-vacuum-cleaner-g10-plus-eu https://mistore.se/products/xiaomi-vacuum-cleaner-g10-plus-e... But I think any of the G series would be great.
jajuuka 1y ago
This seems like an empty threat. Okay, so what non-American products do they plan to buy instead? What qualifies something as an American product? Is Apple American because their HQ is there? Are Samsung phones American because they use American Corning Gorilla Glass? Not to mention plenty of other countries have companies that engage in similar practices. As they say, there is no ethical consumption under capitalism.
- gchamonlive 1y ago
  It's not a threat. It's a message and a warning. Keep treating customers like crap, they will start to pick up on the scam.
axus 1y ago
Made me think of this: https://lemmy.ca/c/boycottus https://lemmy.ca/c/boycottus
KevinMS 1y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue_signalling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue_signalling
- gchamonlive 1y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
daft_pink 1y ago
A lot of the products he talks about are sold in America, but not necessarily made in America. We don’t really export any non-commodities.
esbranson 1y ago
So don't. Lol. What a naive blog post. You know about America, you can see our big court cases live.[1] You have no idea what happens in Brazilian courts, your own country. (If your courts were open, there'd be a RECAP equivalent.) Same for European countries. A law says "all evil is unlawful" and the naive think it's a utopia. A ignorância é uma bênção. [1] https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/ https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/
- gchamonlive 1y ago
  You got hung in a detail, which is peripheral to the central argument of the post. If you care to treat the whole post as naive, maybe you should also try to make your point as to why all the other arguments are naive as well?
CHB0403085482 1y ago
Don't buy stuff that is against your self-interest? Got it.
CommenterPerson 1y ago
To the OP: this is extremely well written. It explains something crucially important in a very measured style. I saw your update .. please do not be disheartened about people picking nits. If you read comments to other popular posts, you'll observe that we sometimes ignore the main theme go to great lengths picking some nits to infinitesimal bits. I bought MS Office Professional some 15 years ago. Having been bit by other vendors, I bought the disks. There is nothing on them that the license is for X years (or maybe there is, .. if so, very well hidden in legalese). Now, the company has been going to great lengths to force me to get a later version and pay them a monthly rent. I do not need it, and already paid for the license for what I use. So I will continue to use Windows 7 or 10 or whatever. I am close to putting together a Linux laptop. I see that Consumer Reports has asked that enshittifier to keep supporting Windows 10. One can only hope. I too, while paying my dues to America, will start to look elsewhere. Thank you.
- gchamonlive 1y ago
  Thanks for the encouraging words. It really means a lot. Yeah it feels like people default to assuming we bash on US for sport, that we enjoy it's shortcomings and would also enjoy seeing it burn to the ground. It's not. I wished I didn't have to write these kinds of stuff. I wish I only focused on my area of interest which is philosophy of consciousness. But we have to write these harsh criticism because we want to see things just because we don't wanna see it burn to the ground, but flourish and be ever more inviting for collaboration. It's illogical to think otherwise because it's counterproductive to share knowledge with an actor we'd aim to neutralize. But when slack can change terms, when Microsoft can push spyware and nobody is accountable for anything, when what's the point of a transaction? These all feels like scams. If I'm going to get scammed I prefer not to buy anything at all.

150 points by gchamonlive 1y ago

This is me ranting and venting after watching too much Louis Rossmann on Youtube, but I think there is some merit in the points I made in the post, hopefully it'll resonate with some of you. I expect this post to be aggravating to some, just because it heavily criticizes liberal democracies with unreasonably week market regulations.

A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 1y ago
Rossmann is doing some good work bringing awareness to this issue. A lot of people on this forum dabble in a lot of different spheres and I suspect most have been affected by what he describes on a semi-regular basis.
- kevin_thibedeau 1y ago
  He is doing some good but he becomes a hypocrite when first arguing for legal frameworks to enforce fair dealing in product access and repairability then turns around and espouses depriving content creators of their income.
  - widowlark 1y ago
    Paradox of tolerance
  - kg 1y ago
    I assume this is about adblock. In that case, the PC owner/user's right to control their own hardware takes priority over the content creator's desire to control other people's hardware. Without that fundamental rule, it becomes possible for i.e. John Deere to dictate how you can repair or modify your own equipment, if they allow you to do it at all. It's unpleasant and I really feel for the content creators whose livelihoods are impacted but we've already seen how bad it is to restrict end users' autonomy.
    - kevin_thibedeau 1y ago
      Adblock is not an issue. He hawks piracy tools.
      - A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 1y ago
        Can you elaborate? This is the first time I hear about this part.
      - IncreasePosts 1y ago
        What piracy tools? I asked gemini (because no way am I sifting through his million hours of video), and all it could come up with is that he talks about a certain DVD player that, I guess, has faulty firmware that bypasses region restrictions. And he has a "garage full of them" (per gemini)
_3u10 1y ago
It is strange that so many Brazilians choose to buy products in less regulated and protectionist Paraguay, why would so many Brazilian Drs choose to be educated in a "right-wing narco state". Why is there less inequality in unregulated Paraguay? What advantage is conveyed to people who travel from Floripa to CDE just to avoid the wonderful consumer protections offered in Brazil? Why would they do such a thing when given the opportunity to vote with their feet? How does paying twice as much for a car advantage the average Brazilian? Does it make it more affordable for them? Why do "poor" Paraguayans drive Mercedes and BMW when Brazilians choose Renault for the same price?
- gchamonlive 1y ago
  Idk and I don't care. One mistake doesn't make another right. You can spend all your free time bashing on Brazilian policies and you'd be mostly right. Consumption is taxed as well as income, the rich pays laughably low taxes and corruption is still rampant with all the congressman taking a bite of public treasury. Still the point stands, Brazil has shown that his laws and regulations work better than US, not only when applying due process to judge and hold polítical figures accountable, but also to protect the consumer after purchase.
IAmBroom 1y ago
No, it's aggravating because it uses almost no evidence to blame group A for something groups B, C, and D through Z are guilty of. In fact, the primary evidence presented weirdly isn't from Group A at all. It's a nonsensical rant, dressed up in proper English format and syntax.
- gchamonlive 1y ago
  Care to dismantle my arguments then? How is the US not an oligarchy, how an oligarchy doesn't devolve into the situation described, how US is not anti-consumer, how the ethos there wouldn't protect companies from being anti-consumers, how the Tesla, Google and Microsoft examples don't apply. If you are going to disagree with other people you should prepare your response better, otherwise you are just claiming stuff in English without any substance.

danishbread 1y ago

Is this 'don't buy American' or is it 'don't support economies with anti-consumer practices'?

mingus88 1y ago
It’s both. From the article > If I start buying European and they start behaving like the US does now, then this rant will just as easily apply to them.
- IAmBroom 1y ago
  And yet... the article includes examples of European companies behaving like this. BTW, it's not about how the US behaves. It's about how many companies, some of which happen to be US-based, behave.
gchamonlive 1y ago
It could be about the later, but I'd have to research more to make such a general claim.
m2f2 1y ago
I guess it could be extended to any country with similari behavior. Take the attitude to selling your data at state, country level "just because". If US citizens love being scr@@d over good for them....
insane_dreamer 1y ago
> All this points to a very clear trend, at least for me, that the US is openly an oligarchy. I read it as don't support oligarchies.

mrits 1y ago

In the US we have always at least acted like we try to buy American made. It feels weird that the rest of the world is only now considering where their stuff is coming from.

boh 1y ago
Who's "we"? The "buy American" crowd has always been super niche and a very small minority.
- mingus88 1y ago
  In my experience, the buy American crowd says one thing but without exception simply buys the cheapest thing always What they want is for the best deal to be the local deal, but they are not well off enough to actually take a principled stance on it
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- kevin_thibedeau 1y ago
  Wal-Mart made it a marketing campaign in the 80s. Much of their inventory was US produced with prominent signs all over their stores.
  - boh 1y ago
    A marketing campaign from 40 years ago doesn't qualify as a predominant culture.
- mrits 1y ago
  It was the initiative of the largest retailer. You have had to live in a bubble to not know this.
gchamonlive 1y ago
I'm not making a point only to buy local. I'm making a point not to buy American today, if things don't improve.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

_3u10 1y ago

I love visiting Brazil, but it’s not like paying 3x the price for an iPhone means you’re less likely to get it stolen in Foz vs CDE (where presumably they bought the phone) If the writer of the article is here I’m interested in why there’s far more consumer protection southern red states like Santa Catarina vs northern blue states. How come things just don’t get stolen as often there in the Bolsonaro areas? If your answer is poverty i refer you to CDE vs Foz.

akagusu 1y ago
In Brazil consumer protections law are federal laws, not state laws, so there is no different levels of consumer protection between states

hn_throw_250915 1y ago

The most fascinating thing in this self-aware rant is that Reason is still around. I haven’t heard of their DAW in what must be 20 years. n.b. They were shamelessly anticonsumer all along even in the early days. That’s why we just moved on from them and, to me anyway, they fell into obscurity.

fidotron 1y ago
He doesn't seem to realize they aren't American either.
- gchamonlive 1y ago
  I do, and it doesn't hurt the point in the article because the rant isn't directed at all the companies that are anti-consumer. It's directed at the bad example the US market sets for the entire world. It's the leading market, the richest country in the world. In other words, if US companies didn't misbehave and US were still the largest market in the world, would other companies like Reason be bold enough to screw consumers? Let's not be cynical here. What happens in the US ripples across the entire free world just because it's in a position of economical and political leadership that it carved for itself by means of force and influence since the great world wars.
  - fidotron 1y ago
    > it doesn't hurt the point in the article Your assertions do not make something true.
    - gchamonlive 1y ago
      If you'd care to elaborate maybe I can clarify

OGEnthusiast 1y ago

Does this mean not buying from American companies, or things that were made in America? E.g. would this person consider buying a MacBook from Apple that's entirely manufactured in China to be "buying American"?

happytoexplain 1y ago
Is there a reason you think that might not count? Obviously the point of not buying X is to avoid supporting X for long-term moral and practical reasons, despite the product's convenience/cheapness/quality/whatever.
- OGEnthusiast 1y ago
  It was a genuine question, since I imagine it would be difficult to be a tech enthusiast while having your entire personal supply chain be free of any US-based company. Regardless, kudos to people who try.
  - lucianbr 1y ago
    It does not have to be all or nothing. You can probably aim to reduce the degree of "US-made-ness" of your tech gadgets. I don't know how effective that is, but it's an option that's available.
  - em-bee 1y ago
    the question is who makes the profit. for apple products most of the profit goes to the US. for others, eg. lenovo most of the profits go to hong kong/china. maybe you can avoid US components with ARM based computers, or loongson, the chinese CPU.
lucianbr 1y ago
The author seems to think american companies are anti-consumer. That would certainly include Apple, no matter where a given product is made. Iphones are locked down due to decisions made by Apple execs and employees living and woking in the US, regardless where they are fabricated. It's the lockdown that matters, not where the factory is located. I don't see why you would even think the geographical location of the manufacturing plant matters.

yupitsme123 1y ago

It's interesting to me that a country that loves consumerism so much doesn't have a pro-consumer movement. It looks like Ralph Nader led one for a while back in the '70s but it's long dead now. If someone were to revive such a movement or if some politicians were to attach themselves to it then I think it would be hugely popular.

kg 1y ago
Approval rate doesn't seem to be much of a concern for modern western politicians. The current administrations in the US and some other western countries have abysmally low approval ratings and they're still in power. (This is not a value judgment of the administrations or people who voted for them, just an observation).
woodruffw 1y ago
I think Steinbeck’s quip about temporarily embarrassed millionaires has a parallel in how Americans perceive their consumerism: Americans don’t see themselves as a consumer culture, even though we are one.
em-bee 1y ago
consumerism is for the benefit of the corporations, not the consumer. it's to get people to consume more. being pro-consumer leads to things like warranty, forcing me to make my products last longer which leads to people buying less.
- em-bee 1y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumerism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumerism
nozzlegear 1y ago
> If someone were to revive such a movement or if some politicians were to attach themselves to it then I think it would be hugely popular. Senator Elizabeth Warren's whole schtick was, and still is, pro-consumer. She practically built the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau with her own two hands. Sadly the CFPB has now been hamstrung by DOGE and the Trump admin; it's been stripped of much of its capacity to enforce its rules, conduct investigations and protect consumers.

boh 1y ago

No shade to the poster but we don't really make much, so not buying American is very easy. Besides tomatoes and apples most people in the US probably don't even own anything made here.

lucianbr 1y ago
Would you call iPhones chinese and not american? No matter, I think obviously people would consider them american, and importantly, the way they function and respect or trample consumer rights is decided by american citizens. Maybe the US doesn't make much per se, but it certainly decides and influences much.
nine_k 1y ago
A ton of people own iPhones, drive Fords and Chevrolets, and buy a lot of local produce. Anybody lucky enough to own a house also own a locally-produced one.
- boh 1y ago
  Things not made in America don't count as things made in America.
gchamonlive 1y ago
US produces a lot of digital goods. A lot of high quality digital goods to be precise, which makes this a tragedy. I want so much to just buy Apple products and have the best setup for music production, but I just can't because of what I laid out in the post.

0xbadcafebee 1y ago

The USA isn't a traditional oligarchy. It does have different levels and kinds of power. Most of them are corporate, but some are purely political or ideological (like Trump's regime). Our oligarchy is more like a collection of oligopolies that all share an interest in the political state and economy. After Trump goes away, they will work towards preventing a single leader from working against their interests again. It's all about soft power.

gchamonlive 1y ago
> After Trump goes away, they will work towards preventing a single leader from working against their interests again. I read it like "let's try to create a more tame Trump", and not like "let's elect leaders that represent the people's interest just as well as ours".

giancarlostoro 1y ago

So... they wrote American but they are confusing anti-consumer tactics with an entire country, even though they were not going for that. Just want to point out: * Samsung has been accused of releasing software updates that degrade performance, forcing you to buy newer devices - Samsung is not American * Brother - Japanese printer maker, I LOVE their printers mind you, but they've released firmware upgrades that prevent or degrade compatibility with third party ink cartridges * Epson - Also Japanese, also have owned some of their printers, same thing with third party ink cartridges. I'm sure there's many more companies, not from the US who do equally if not worse evils with software / hardware. What the author is after isn't American products, just anti-consumerism, which can be impossible to predict mind you. Anyone of any country can do it.

fidotron 1y ago
And his direct example, Reason, is Swedish!
- gchamonlive 1y ago
  That's what prompted the rest of the research, doesn't need to be American the point stands.
  - fidotron 1y ago
    So you will continue to buy Swedish?
    - gchamonlive 1y ago
      Yes. Is that hypocrisy? No, because I'm not advocating for any extreme form of consuming veganism. I'm advocating for a message. If the message is strong and clear that companies can't employ anti-consumer practices without consequences, then maybe other companies like Reason that operates outside the US will think twice before doing it, even if the laws under which they operate would allow them to. Why target American products then? It's not accidental. US is by far the largest market and as such has the responsibility to set an example. If we change the example being set that will likely ripple to other markets.

aelaguiz 1y ago

The irony of posting this on the literal celebration of upwards mobility and capitalism that is YC is delicious.

gchamonlive 1y ago
I won't lie that I had HN partially in mind when I wrote the post. It honestly started as a way for me to vent, but I thought what the hell, lemme post there, it prolly won't even survive the New page without getting flagged. Didn't really think it would hit front page (but I really was expecting it to get flagged which it eventually did).
- aelaguiz 1y ago
  Yes we all want the benefits produced by incentive structures that bring out the best of humanity with absolutely no harm or asymmetric benefit. This junk always gets attention because people don't read history therefore they have no basis for comparison.
  - gchamonlive 1y ago
    Yeah, maybe. Right now all I want is more accountability and less cynicism, so that I can trust that an agreement won't be changed after the fact.

1970-01-01 1y ago

>The people are never to blame. Hold here. They aren't. Immediately letting 'the people' off the hook for blame is a somewhat modern fallacy. These people democratically choose the leader. You can't just 'not blame' them, as a group, for an eventual failure if they consistently choose poorly.

johnisgood 1y ago
In their defense, they can only choose between this or that, and both of them are quite shitty, in the US.
- thepryz 1y ago
  Sorry, but I find this to be an excuse. Voters can hold elected officials accountable by not re-electing politicians, not donating to them, and supporting candidates that will better represent them. The problem is that most citizens are not civically knowledgeable or engaged which is why we continue to have to choose the lesser of two evils that are often the same in policy.
  - ryandrake 1y ago
    The choice is between Anti Consumer Jerk #1 and Slightly Less Of An Anti Consumer Jerk #2. One of them is going to be in charge. There is no choice to simply not elect someone, and writing in a non-jerk is unrealistic.
    - thepryz 1y ago
      A civically informed and engaged population also has a choice to organize against the political establishment, run their own candidates, or create political action committees. The PAC can endorse and otherwise work to support a better candidate to win a primary (See David Hogg's Leaders We Deserve PAC), or if you don't mind getting a little dirty, the PAC can raise enough money to buy the politicians and bend them to their will. I do admit that this is more difficult for Presidential elections, but certainly this can be effective at the state and local level and arguably could be used effectively within Congress if done right. In fact, we might be seeing some of that begin to happen in states like Maine given the response Graham Platner has already received. Kat Abughazaleh is another example. She's a progressive who is taking a somewhat novel approach to her campaign in Chicago. And of course you have Zohran Mamdani in NYC mayoral race. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Platner https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Platner https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kat_Abughazaleh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kat_Abughazaleh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zohran_Mamdani https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zohran_Mamdani

AnotherGoodName 1y ago

I came to the same conclusion years ago. The best appliances and kitchenware I've ever bought were designed (not necessarily made) in countries which have strongly defended return policies. Thinking La Creuset, Breville, Bosch, etc. In general you get quality from the EU and the UK/Aus/Can/NZ countries where there's "you may return the product at any time for a full refund if it has a fault" type of laws and a consumer agency to help police enforcement (the law is worthless if the consumer has to take a store to court themselves). I'll also give a viewpoint that Japan and SK, like the USA, have fallen pretty far and i don't include them in the above group. If you look it up it appears stores can easily refuse refunds which is a recipe for crap products which explains the absolutely shit Sony and Samsung have been putting out the past decade.

bryanlarsen 1y ago

The Trump tariffs are killing American manufacturers so you will have fewer options to buy American in the future. https://www.starlinghome.io/ https://www.starlinghome.io/ shut down today.

gchamonlive 1y ago
That's disastrous and not the point of the post. I don't want to see the American economy gone, I want to see it serve the very people that makes it the behemoth it is.

GardenLetter27 1y ago

This is why I hate tariffs and extreme regulations so much. My Xiaomi vacuum cleaner is the best I've ever owned, but I can't purchase their electric car, and even if I could - it'd cost an extra 40% or so just on the tariffs. We need a free market with open competition. The best guarantor of rights is having the option to walk away and choose a different provider - in employment, and in services / retail purchases, etc.

throwacct 1y ago
"Free market with open competition" works when countries play fair. China doesn't play fair. What you propose is to decimate the car industry (your example) and be dependent on foreign actors. Extrapolate that to every industry, and now you have a shell of a country. Late-stage capitalism is equally bad as a "free-for-all" market.
toomuchtodo 1y ago
Would you be willing to share a link to that vacuum cleaner? I would like to leave Dyson behind forever.
- GardenLetter27 1y ago
  I have the Xiaomi G10 Plus with mop - https://mistore.se/products/xiaomi-vacuum-cleaner-g10-plus-eu https://mistore.se/products/xiaomi-vacuum-cleaner-g10-plus-e... But I think any of the G series would be great.

jajuuka 1y ago

This seems like an empty threat. Okay, so what non-American products do they plan to buy instead? What qualifies something as an American product? Is Apple American because their HQ is there? Are Samsung phones American because they use American Corning Gorilla Glass? Not to mention plenty of other countries have companies that engage in similar practices. As they say, there is no ethical consumption under capitalism.

gchamonlive 1y ago
It's not a threat. It's a message and a warning. Keep treating customers like crap, they will start to pick up on the scam.

axus 1y ago

Made me think of this: https://lemmy.ca/c/boycottus https://lemmy.ca/c/boycottus

KevinMS 1y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue_signalling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue_signalling

gchamonlive 1y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

daft_pink 1y ago

A lot of the products he talks about are sold in America, but not necessarily made in America. We don’t really export any non-commodities.

esbranson 1y ago

So don't. Lol. What a naive blog post. You know about America, you can see our big court cases live.[1] You have no idea what happens in Brazilian courts, your own country. (If your courts were open, there'd be a RECAP equivalent.) Same for European countries. A law says "all evil is unlawful" and the naive think it's a utopia. A ignorância é uma bênção. [1] https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/ https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/

gchamonlive 1y ago
You got hung in a detail, which is peripheral to the central argument of the post. If you care to treat the whole post as naive, maybe you should also try to make your point as to why all the other arguments are naive as well?

CHB0403085482 1y ago

Don't buy stuff that is against your self-interest? Got it.

CommenterPerson 1y ago

To the OP: this is extremely well written. It explains something crucially important in a very measured style. I saw your update .. please do not be disheartened about people picking nits. If you read comments to other popular posts, you'll observe that we sometimes ignore the main theme go to great lengths picking some nits to infinitesimal bits. I bought MS Office Professional some 15 years ago. Having been bit by other vendors, I bought the disks. There is nothing on them that the license is for X years (or maybe there is, .. if so, very well hidden in legalese). Now, the company has been going to great lengths to force me to get a later version and pay them a monthly rent. I do not need it, and already paid for the license for what I use. So I will continue to use Windows 7 or 10 or whatever. I am close to putting together a Linux laptop. I see that Consumer Reports has asked that enshittifier to keep supporting Windows 10. One can only hope. I too, while paying my dues to America, will start to look elsewhere. Thank you.

gchamonlive 1y ago
Thanks for the encouraging words. It really means a lot. Yeah it feels like people default to assuming we bash on US for sport, that we enjoy it's shortcomings and would also enjoy seeing it burn to the ground. It's not. I wished I didn't have to write these kinds of stuff. I wish I only focused on my area of interest which is philosophy of consciousness. But we have to write these harsh criticism because we want to see things just because we don't wanna see it burn to the ground, but flourish and be ever more inviting for collaboration. It's illogical to think otherwise because it's counterproductive to share knowledge with an actor we'd aim to neutralize. But when slack can change terms, when Microsoft can push spyware and nobody is accountable for anything, when what's the point of a transaction? These all feels like scams. If I'm going to get scammed I prefer not to buy anything at all.