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This is a good article but it only scratches the surface, as is always the case when it comes to C++. When I made a meme about C++ [1] I was purposeful in choo

This is a good article but it only scratches the surface, as is always the case when it comes to C++. When I made a meme about C++ [1] I was purposeful in choosing the iceberg format. To me it's not quite satisfying to say that C++ is merely complex or vast. A more fitting word would be "arcane", "monumental" or "titanic" (get it?). There's a specific feeling you get when you're trying to understand what the hell is an xvalue, why std::move doesn't move or why std::remove doesn't remove. The Forest Gump C++ is another meme that captures this feeling very well (not by me) [2]. What it comes down to is developer experience (DX), and C++ has a terrible one. Down to syntax and all the way up to package management a C++ developper feels stuck to a time before they were born. At least we have a lot of time to think about all that while our code compiles. But that might just be the price for all the power it gives you. [1] https://victorpoughon.github.io/cppiceberg/ https://victorpoughon.github.io/cppiceberg/ [2] https://mikelui.io/img/c++_init_forest.gif https://mikelui.io/img/c++_init_forest.gif

jandrese 1y ago
In Linuxland you at least have pkg-config to help with package management. It's not perfect but neither is any other package management solution. If I'm writing a small utility or something the Makefile typically looks something like this: CC=clang PACKAGES=libcurl libturbojpeg CFLAGS=-Wall -pedantic --std=gnu17 -g $(shell pkg-config --cflags $(PACKAGES)) LDLIBS=$(shell pkg-config --libs $(PACKAGES)) ALL: imagerunner imagerunner: imagerunner.o image_decoder.o downloader.o
- duped 1y ago
  Consider that to do this you must: - Use a build system like make, you can't just `c++ build` - Understand that C++ compilers by default have no idea where most things are, you have to tell them exactly where to search - Use an external tool that's not your build system or compiler to actually inform the compiler what those search paths are - Oh also understand the compiler doesn't actually output what you want, you also need a linker - That linker also doesn't know where to find things, so you need the external tool to use it - Oh and you still have to use a package manager to install those dependencies to work with pkg-config, and it will install them globally. If you want to use it in different projects you better hope you're ok with them all sharing the same version. Now you can see why things like IDEs became default tools for teaching students how to write C and C++, because there's no "open a text editor and then `c++ build file.cpp` to get output" for anything except hello world examples.
  - palata 1y ago
    I can use pkg-config just fine. Not sure how relevant the "in order to use a tool, you need to learn how to use the tool". Or from the other side: not sure what I should think about the quality of the work produced by people who don't want to learn relatively basic skills... it does not take two PhDs to understand how to use pkg-config.
    - duped 1y ago
      I'm just pointing out that one reason devex sucks in C++ is because the fact you need a wide array of tools, that are non portable, and require learning and teaching magic incantations at the command line or in build scripts to work, doesn't foster what one could call a "good" experience. Frankly the idea that your compiler driver should not be a basic build system, package manager, and linker is an idea best left in the 80s where it belongs.
      - bluGill 1y ago
        that idea that packages and builds belongs to simple problem, large projects need things like more than one laguage and so end up fighting the language
        duped 1y ago
        Every modern language seems to have an answer to this problem that C and C++ refuse to touch because it's out of scope for their respective committees and standards orgs
        pclmulqdq 1y ago
        C++ has a plethora of available build and package management systems. They just aren't bundled with the compiler. IMO that is a good thing, because it keeps the compiler writers honest.
        1y ago
jjaksic 1y ago
Wow, I don't understand what anything means in those memes. And I'm so glad I don't! It seems to me that the people/committees who built C++ just spent decades inventing new and creative ways for developers to shoot themselves in the foot. Like, why does the language need to offer a hundred different ways to accomplish each trivial task (and 98 of them are bad)?
- fouronnes3 1y ago
  The road to hell is paved with 40 years of backwards compatibility requirements.
- account42 1y ago
  Ignorance is not something you should be proud of.
  - TheOtherHobbes 1y ago
    C++ is the only language which invests in archaeology over futurism. You get to choose between 25 flint-bladed axes, some of which are coated in modern plastic, when you really want a chainsaw.
  - saghm 1y ago
    Being wise enough to know what's worth spending time to learn is, though. Knowledge isn't free.
rendaw 1y ago
I don't plan on ever using C++ again, but FWIW in Rust there are lots of cases where you specify `move` and stuff doesn't get moved, or don't specify it and it does, and it's also a specific feeling.
einpoklum 1y ago
> why std::move doesn't move Whenever someone asks you about std::move, or -values I have a ready-made answer for that: https://stackoverflow.com/a/27026280/1593077 https://stackoverflow.com/a/27026280/1593077 but it's true that when a user first sees `std::move(x)` with no argument saying _where_ to move it to, they either get frustrated or understand they have to get philosophical :-)

jandrese 1y ago

In Linuxland you at least have pkg-config to help with package management. It's not perfect but neither is any other package management solution. If I'm writing a small utility or something the Makefile typically looks something like this: CC=clang PACKAGES=libcurl libturbojpeg CFLAGS=-Wall -pedantic --std=gnu17 -g $(shell pkg-config --cflags $(PACKAGES)) LDLIBS=$(shell pkg-config --libs $(PACKAGES)) ALL: imagerunner imagerunner: imagerunner.o image_decoder.o downloader.o

duped 1y ago
Consider that to do this you must: - Use a build system like make, you can't just `c++ build` - Understand that C++ compilers by default have no idea where most things are, you have to tell them exactly where to search - Use an external tool that's not your build system or compiler to actually inform the compiler what those search paths are - Oh also understand the compiler doesn't actually output what you want, you also need a linker - That linker also doesn't know where to find things, so you need the external tool to use it - Oh and you still have to use a package manager to install those dependencies to work with pkg-config, and it will install them globally. If you want to use it in different projects you better hope you're ok with them all sharing the same version. Now you can see why things like IDEs became default tools for teaching students how to write C and C++, because there's no "open a text editor and then `c++ build file.cpp` to get output" for anything except hello world examples.
- palata 1y ago
  I can use pkg-config just fine. Not sure how relevant the "in order to use a tool, you need to learn how to use the tool". Or from the other side: not sure what I should think about the quality of the work produced by people who don't want to learn relatively basic skills... it does not take two PhDs to understand how to use pkg-config.
  - duped 1y ago
    I'm just pointing out that one reason devex sucks in C++ is because the fact you need a wide array of tools, that are non portable, and require learning and teaching magic incantations at the command line or in build scripts to work, doesn't foster what one could call a "good" experience. Frankly the idea that your compiler driver should not be a basic build system, package manager, and linker is an idea best left in the 80s where it belongs.
    - bluGill 1y ago
      that idea that packages and builds belongs to simple problem, large projects need things like more than one laguage and so end up fighting the language
      - duped 1y ago
        Every modern language seems to have an answer to this problem that C and C++ refuse to touch because it's out of scope for their respective committees and standards orgs
        pclmulqdq 1y ago
        C++ has a plethora of available build and package management systems. They just aren't bundled with the compiler. IMO that is a good thing, because it keeps the compiler writers honest.
        1y ago

jjaksic 1y ago

Wow, I don't understand what anything means in those memes. And I'm so glad I don't! It seems to me that the people/committees who built C++ just spent decades inventing new and creative ways for developers to shoot themselves in the foot. Like, why does the language need to offer a hundred different ways to accomplish each trivial task (and 98 of them are bad)?

fouronnes3 1y ago
The road to hell is paved with 40 years of backwards compatibility requirements.
account42 1y ago
Ignorance is not something you should be proud of.
- TheOtherHobbes 1y ago
  C++ is the only language which invests in archaeology over futurism. You get to choose between 25 flint-bladed axes, some of which are coated in modern plastic, when you really want a chainsaw.
- saghm 1y ago
  Being wise enough to know what's worth spending time to learn is, though. Knowledge isn't free.

rendaw 1y ago

I don't plan on ever using C++ again, but FWIW in Rust there are lots of cases where you specify `move` and stuff doesn't get moved, or don't specify it and it does, and it's also a specific feeling.

einpoklum 1y ago

> why std::move doesn't move Whenever someone asks you about std::move, or -values I have a ready-made answer for that: https://stackoverflow.com/a/27026280/1593077 https://stackoverflow.com/a/27026280/1593077 but it's true that when a user first sees `std::move(x)` with no argument saying _where_ to move it to, they either get frustrated or understand they have to get philosophical :-)