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Why would we expect any desirable outcome in this hypothetical though? So the US flips, Israel is pressured into withdrawing, Hamas regains control of the strip

Why would we expect any desirable outcome in this hypothetical though? So the US flips, Israel is pressured into withdrawing, Hamas regains control of the strip and resumes rocket attacks, Israel is forced to respond eventually. It doesn't seem like a path toward a real solution.

bigyabai 1y ago
> It doesn't seem like a path toward a real solution. As long as the Dahiya doctrine persists, it won't be. But that's an Israeli problem - their disproportionate response has been exploited for years. Hamas is fine letting Israel commit as many war crimes as it takes to satisfy their leadership, it very clearly hasn't changed tactics in recent years. The cost to Israeli international credibility seems to be "worth it" in their eyes. So, if Israel wants peace they first have to stop escalation. But even if Hamas was defeated, we know that wouldn't be the end of things. Next the Druze has to be defended, which would result in a very justified annexation of south Syria and repeat of the same genocidal conditions in Gaza. They would also attempt to unseat power in Yemen, and then embroil America in an unwinnable war against Iran to sustain a true hegemony.
- actionfromafar 1y ago
  America is pissing away its hegemony all on its own.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
aucisson_masque 1y ago
It can either end in the death of one side, most probably Palestinians, or in peace agreement. Currently there is war, peace is out of the window. First step is to stop the war, second step is to make both side actually negotiate. It was attempted by Clinton a while ago but assassinations from mossad and hamas prevented the process to success. To be honest, politicians have failed us too many times for my sad brain to believe that there will be a good outcome. Most probably Israel society will keep radicalizing itself, Palestinians will be killed and Gaza bombed/annexed leading to the death of both Palestinian and Israeli civilization. Palestinian will be all dead and Israeli will have become in all manner what they initially sought to destroy, literal nazi. I’d even bet that death by zyklon is more human that seeing your family and yourself getting slowly hungered to death. And contrary to nazi Germany, no Israeli can pretend to not know what’s going on.
- Workaccount2 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - jedimind 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - Workaccount2 1y ago
      I wouldn't mistake Palestinians for Hamas operatives, despite how much Hamas wants that.
      - bigyabai 1y ago
        Would the IDF?
  - Braxton1980 1y ago
    To an extent sure but Israel 's methods of stopping them are the issue. They are using total war which causes suffering disproportionately to innocent people
  - kalberg6429 1y ago
    No, normal people understand very well that they are. They are the children of Palestinians who were murdered or ethnically-cleansed in the Nakba and then locked up in an open-air prison. They are the resistance to zionist-colonialism. You obviously can't describe them as such, since you are a Zionist for whom such primitive smears are useful propaganda designed to deny them the internationally recognized right to armed resistance.
    - dotancohen 1y ago
      [flagged]
7952 1y ago
There isn't a real solution. Just an opportunity for a few years of peace where people can do the important things in life. That is no small thing though. The danger is in chasing some quixotic nationalist dream. That is never ever going to work out.
- Braxton1980 1y ago
  "Just an opportunity for a few years of peace where people can do more important things in life" For many people that's amazing.
- SilverElfin 1y ago
  Well the real solution is to have a single state and assimilation of some kind, so that people can coexist. It’s possible. Israel itself demonstrates this since nearly 30% of the population isn’t Jewish. But I think a peaceful two state coexistence is unlikely with people who chant “from the River to sea”, which implies the complete erasure of the state of Israel.
  - throw310822 1y ago
    > Israel itself demonstrates this since nearly 30% of the population isn’t Jewish Israel also has a law that says that the right of self-determination only belongs to its Jewish citizens- it calls itself the Jewish state. I would be entirely for a one-state solution with equal rights for everyone, but that thing cannot be Israel.
    - dotancohen 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - throw310822 1y ago
        Not sure which states you refer to (and obviously you don't know either, you just mean it as a lazy retort) but it's not the point. The point is that Israel is programmatically a state for the Jews, and therefore Israel cannot be a state for everyone. There is btw nothing wrong with it- western nations can afford the luxury of being open to everyone because they are massive and ethnically homogeneous enough to be able to afford it. There's some hypocrisy or wishful thinking at the bottom of this, but doesn't matter. The fault of Israel is not that of wanting a state for the Jews, is thinking of colonising another people's land do obtain it, and then not stopping but keeping taking more and crushing all resistance with violence.
Braxton1980 1y ago
Israel needs to take a more precise approach to getting rid of Hamas.
- dotancohen 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - nick_ 1y ago
    People who think it's acceptable to bomb civilian residential areas flat because they're "booby trapped" are lost souls.
    - dotancohen 1y ago
      Those booby traps also kill Gazan children. Did you see that recent video of the Gazan girl getting blown to bits? They tried to pin it on Israel, but it was a Hamas IED. That's why there was a camera pointed at it.
      - 8note 1y ago
        sorry, is this an argument that no israeli explosions are caught on camera? that seems unlikely
        nobankai 1y ago
        You are talking to an ex-IDF member who is being deliberately obtuse.
        dotancohen 1y ago
        In what sense am I being obtuse? By actually talking to Gazans?
        nobankai 1y ago
dragonwriter 1y ago
> Why would we expect any desirable outcome in this hypothetical though? Ending unconditional US support is the only thing that motivates Israel to seek an end other than by genocide, which is a necessary (but not sufficient, on its own) condition for any desirable outcome.
FridayoLeary 1y ago
[flagged]
- cheema33 1y ago
  That or the Israelis could be relocated to the US. Give Palestinians their land back and our Israeli friends can come live next to us.
sporkxrocket 1y ago
The US and all other nations sanction Israel. If that doesn't work, military intervention. Israel will fall, it's just a matter of time.
- dlubarov 1y ago
  What would you demand Israel do to be released from these hypothetical sanctions? Military intervention meaning invade a nuclear power?
  - sporkxrocket 1y ago
    Be dissolved. I think sanctions and making Israel economically unviable are a peaceful solution.
    - klipt 1y ago
      What makes you think "dissolving Israel" would be any more peaceful than "dissolving Gaza" would be?
      - sporkxrocket 1y ago
        Israel need US protection and money. If you take that away, the settlers go home. If they don't, then yes, I'm sure the US can defeat Israel in armed conflict.
        klipt 1y ago
        [flagged]
        sporkxrocket 1y ago
        I think Americans are done hearing about Zionist invented fictional scenarios. The reality is that Palestine has been ethnically cleansed by Zionists. The other reality is that young Americans see Israel as our enemy, so there will be no support in the near future.
energy123 1y ago
It's the same liberal psychology behind UNSC Resolution 1701 in 2006 where Hezbollah pinkie promised to disarm. And now look at all the dead bodies that this liberal solution caused 18 years later. Of course the same types propose the same solutions again with no sense of shame as to how much death it causes. The actual durable solution is something like how Sri Lanka defeated the Tamil Tigers, or how Russia defeated the insurgency in Chechnya. Which is roughly the same as what Israel is doing in Gaza now. But Israel is playing on hard mode because the international community has given such a morale boost to Hamas, prolonging the time until surrender.
- ivell 1y ago
  > morale boost to Hamas, prolonging the time until surrender. I think this is key. The protest must condemn Hamas while supporting innocent people. Protests that support Hamas as some kind of justified resistance just prolongates everything. Hamas doesn't care for its people. It has an ideological system that glorifies death. Death is just a means to an end for them. This is the problem of viewing things black and white. The whole conflict is varying shades of Grey.
- throwawayqqq11 1y ago
  > 18 year causality stretch without a single critical remark about israels constant desintegration of palestinian civic life. Good job. The feat of not blaming the obvious aggressor is something very few accomplish. Israel has control over water, electricty, gas, road, "law enforcement", etc. and used it for decades to push palestinians out of their homes. The last violent events are a result of long oppression and netanjahu establishing a theocracy. Only focusing on extremes and make conclusions on such a basis is something dumb people do, dont you agree? Israel is clearly to blame, when you know a little more nuanced history and consider its long time dominant position in that conflict. > international community has given such a morale boost to Hamas By ignoring israels obvious long running now openly genocidal master plan, you are doing the same.
  - energy123 1y ago
    Well, you seem to be confusing Gaza with South Lebanon, which is what UNSC Resolution 1701, and the 18 years since then, pertains to. There was zero aggression from Israel, they got attacked unprovoked by Hezbollah on October 8th, 2023.
DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
As long as Israel controls the lives of millions of Palestinians who have no rights and who are treated like trash, there will be conflict. In order to be effective, US pressure would have to be aimed at forcing Israel to do one of two things: 1. Withdraw its military from the Palestinian territories (East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza), dismantle all of its illegal settlements there, and recognize a fully sovereign Palestinian state. This is basically asking Israel to give up its dreams of taking over the Palestinian territories and to withdraw to its own borders - a simple ask. 2. Alternatively, Israel gets to keep the Palestinian territories, but it has to grant full, equal citizenship to the Palestinians who live there. That would mean that 50% of the Israeli electorate would be Palestinian, effectively ending the Jewish nature of the state of Israel. The next prime minister could be a Palestinian - who knows? Israel has held onto the Palestinian territories for nearly 60 years without granting the people who live there (except for Israeli settlers) any rights. It has to either leave the occupied territories or grant everyone who lives under its control equal rights. It's actually quite a simple and reasonable demand. Right now, because of unconditional US support, Israel has no incentive to do either of the above. Israel's leaders correctly believe that they can have it all: they can keep the land without granting the Palestinians who live there any rights. They operate with complete impunity. The US could end that impunity and impose real costs on Israel for its actions.
- tayo42 1y ago
  Your ignoring or forgetting that Palestinians don't want either of those solutions, and that's a core part of the conflict.
  - DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
    The Palestinians pursued a 2-state solution (option 1 above) for over two decades. It failed largely because of dead-set opposition from the Israeli right (thanks Netanyahu) and because even the Israeli center-left was unwilling to fully withdraw to Israel's internationally recognized borders and recognize a fully sovereign Palestinian state. There were always demands to keep large chunks of territory (most critically in East Jerusalem) and maintain effective control over any future Palestinian semi-state. Both options laid out above (the 2-state and 1-state solution) are vastly better for the Palestinians than living under permanent Israeli military occupation with no rights, and subjected to continuous violence from the Israelis. It would not be the Palestinians who would block these types of solutions, were they actually on offer. The Israelis have a near monopoly on force in this conflict. They are the overwhelmingly dominant party, the only one with tanks, aircraft, destroyers and nuclear weapons. They have the power to dictate solutions, and that's what they've been doing for decades, using brute force. Pretending these are two equal sides that just can't agree is a fantasy.
zaphirplane 1y ago
Therefore Genocide and starvation ? That’s has to be the weakest every physiological argument
goatlover 1y ago
The Iron Dome prevents most of the rocket attacks. Gaza has no protection against what has become indiscriminate Israeli bombing.
- dlubarov 1y ago
  Air defense alone isn't really a sustainable military strategy against endless rocket attacks. It would become even less viable if Israel lost US military aid, lifted the blockade, and/or stopped bombing things like rocket factories.
- LorenPechtel 1y ago
  If Israeli bombing really were indiscriminate how did they manage to average less than one dead per bomb dropped in urban/suburban environments?
  - Qem 1y ago
    > how did they manage to average less than one dead per bomb dropped in urban/suburban environments? By targeting first responders, jornalists, paramedics, and any professionals able to properly rescue wounded, dead and count the causalties, making available numbers a gross underestimate on the true death toll. Just a few days ago we all watched a staircase full of working first responders and jornalists being blown by israeli tank fire.

bigyabai 1y ago

> It doesn't seem like a path toward a real solution. As long as the Dahiya doctrine persists, it won't be. But that's an Israeli problem - their disproportionate response has been exploited for years. Hamas is fine letting Israel commit as many war crimes as it takes to satisfy their leadership, it very clearly hasn't changed tactics in recent years. The cost to Israeli international credibility seems to be "worth it" in their eyes. So, if Israel wants peace they first have to stop escalation. But even if Hamas was defeated, we know that wouldn't be the end of things. Next the Druze has to be defended, which would result in a very justified annexation of south Syria and repeat of the same genocidal conditions in Gaza. They would also attempt to unseat power in Yemen, and then embroil America in an unwinnable war against Iran to sustain a true hegemony.

actionfromafar 1y ago
America is pissing away its hegemony all on its own.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]

aucisson_masque 1y ago

It can either end in the death of one side, most probably Palestinians, or in peace agreement. Currently there is war, peace is out of the window. First step is to stop the war, second step is to make both side actually negotiate. It was attempted by Clinton a while ago but assassinations from mossad and hamas prevented the process to success. To be honest, politicians have failed us too many times for my sad brain to believe that there will be a good outcome. Most probably Israel society will keep radicalizing itself, Palestinians will be killed and Gaza bombed/annexed leading to the death of both Palestinian and Israeli civilization. Palestinian will be all dead and Israeli will have become in all manner what they initially sought to destroy, literal nazi. I’d even bet that death by zyklon is more human that seeing your family and yourself getting slowly hungered to death. And contrary to nazi Germany, no Israeli can pretend to not know what’s going on.

Workaccount2 1y ago
[flagged]
- jedimind 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - Workaccount2 1y ago
    I wouldn't mistake Palestinians for Hamas operatives, despite how much Hamas wants that.
    - bigyabai 1y ago
      Would the IDF?
- Braxton1980 1y ago
  To an extent sure but Israel 's methods of stopping them are the issue. They are using total war which causes suffering disproportionately to innocent people
- kalberg6429 1y ago
  No, normal people understand very well that they are. They are the children of Palestinians who were murdered or ethnically-cleansed in the Nakba and then locked up in an open-air prison. They are the resistance to zionist-colonialism. You obviously can't describe them as such, since you are a Zionist for whom such primitive smears are useful propaganda designed to deny them the internationally recognized right to armed resistance.
  - dotancohen 1y ago
    [flagged]

7952 1y ago

There isn't a real solution. Just an opportunity for a few years of peace where people can do the important things in life. That is no small thing though. The danger is in chasing some quixotic nationalist dream. That is never ever going to work out.

Braxton1980 1y ago
"Just an opportunity for a few years of peace where people can do more important things in life" For many people that's amazing.
SilverElfin 1y ago
Well the real solution is to have a single state and assimilation of some kind, so that people can coexist. It’s possible. Israel itself demonstrates this since nearly 30% of the population isn’t Jewish. But I think a peaceful two state coexistence is unlikely with people who chant “from the River to sea”, which implies the complete erasure of the state of Israel.
- throw310822 1y ago
  > Israel itself demonstrates this since nearly 30% of the population isn’t Jewish Israel also has a law that says that the right of self-determination only belongs to its Jewish citizens- it calls itself the Jewish state. I would be entirely for a one-state solution with equal rights for everyone, but that thing cannot be Israel.
  - dotancohen 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - throw310822 1y ago
      Not sure which states you refer to (and obviously you don't know either, you just mean it as a lazy retort) but it's not the point. The point is that Israel is programmatically a state for the Jews, and therefore Israel cannot be a state for everyone. There is btw nothing wrong with it- western nations can afford the luxury of being open to everyone because they are massive and ethnically homogeneous enough to be able to afford it. There's some hypocrisy or wishful thinking at the bottom of this, but doesn't matter. The fault of Israel is not that of wanting a state for the Jews, is thinking of colonising another people's land do obtain it, and then not stopping but keeping taking more and crushing all resistance with violence.

Braxton1980 1y ago

Israel needs to take a more precise approach to getting rid of Hamas.

dotancohen 1y ago
[flagged]
- nick_ 1y ago
  People who think it's acceptable to bomb civilian residential areas flat because they're "booby trapped" are lost souls.
  - dotancohen 1y ago
    Those booby traps also kill Gazan children. Did you see that recent video of the Gazan girl getting blown to bits? They tried to pin it on Israel, but it was a Hamas IED. That's why there was a camera pointed at it.
    - 8note 1y ago
      sorry, is this an argument that no israeli explosions are caught on camera? that seems unlikely
      - nobankai 1y ago
        You are talking to an ex-IDF member who is being deliberately obtuse.
        dotancohen 1y ago
        In what sense am I being obtuse? By actually talking to Gazans?
        nobankai 1y ago

dragonwriter 1y ago

> Why would we expect any desirable outcome in this hypothetical though? Ending unconditional US support is the only thing that motivates Israel to seek an end other than by genocide, which is a necessary (but not sufficient, on its own) condition for any desirable outcome.

FridayoLeary 1y ago

[flagged]

cheema33 1y ago
That or the Israelis could be relocated to the US. Give Palestinians their land back and our Israeli friends can come live next to us.

sporkxrocket 1y ago

The US and all other nations sanction Israel. If that doesn't work, military intervention. Israel will fall, it's just a matter of time.

dlubarov 1y ago
What would you demand Israel do to be released from these hypothetical sanctions? Military intervention meaning invade a nuclear power?
- sporkxrocket 1y ago
  Be dissolved. I think sanctions and making Israel economically unviable are a peaceful solution.
  - klipt 1y ago
    What makes you think "dissolving Israel" would be any more peaceful than "dissolving Gaza" would be?
    - sporkxrocket 1y ago
      Israel need US protection and money. If you take that away, the settlers go home. If they don't, then yes, I'm sure the US can defeat Israel in armed conflict.
      - klipt 1y ago
        [flagged]
        sporkxrocket 1y ago
        I think Americans are done hearing about Zionist invented fictional scenarios. The reality is that Palestine has been ethnically cleansed by Zionists. The other reality is that young Americans see Israel as our enemy, so there will be no support in the near future.

energy123 1y ago

It's the same liberal psychology behind UNSC Resolution 1701 in 2006 where Hezbollah pinkie promised to disarm. And now look at all the dead bodies that this liberal solution caused 18 years later. Of course the same types propose the same solutions again with no sense of shame as to how much death it causes. The actual durable solution is something like how Sri Lanka defeated the Tamil Tigers, or how Russia defeated the insurgency in Chechnya. Which is roughly the same as what Israel is doing in Gaza now. But Israel is playing on hard mode because the international community has given such a morale boost to Hamas, prolonging the time until surrender.

ivell 1y ago
> morale boost to Hamas, prolonging the time until surrender. I think this is key. The protest must condemn Hamas while supporting innocent people. Protests that support Hamas as some kind of justified resistance just prolongates everything. Hamas doesn't care for its people. It has an ideological system that glorifies death. Death is just a means to an end for them. This is the problem of viewing things black and white. The whole conflict is varying shades of Grey.
throwawayqqq11 1y ago
> 18 year causality stretch without a single critical remark about israels constant desintegration of palestinian civic life. Good job. The feat of not blaming the obvious aggressor is something very few accomplish. Israel has control over water, electricty, gas, road, "law enforcement", etc. and used it for decades to push palestinians out of their homes. The last violent events are a result of long oppression and netanjahu establishing a theocracy. Only focusing on extremes and make conclusions on such a basis is something dumb people do, dont you agree? Israel is clearly to blame, when you know a little more nuanced history and consider its long time dominant position in that conflict. > international community has given such a morale boost to Hamas By ignoring israels obvious long running now openly genocidal master plan, you are doing the same.
- energy123 1y ago
  Well, you seem to be confusing Gaza with South Lebanon, which is what UNSC Resolution 1701, and the 18 years since then, pertains to. There was zero aggression from Israel, they got attacked unprovoked by Hezbollah on October 8th, 2023.

DiogenesKynikos 1y ago

As long as Israel controls the lives of millions of Palestinians who have no rights and who are treated like trash, there will be conflict. In order to be effective, US pressure would have to be aimed at forcing Israel to do one of two things: 1. Withdraw its military from the Palestinian territories (East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza), dismantle all of its illegal settlements there, and recognize a fully sovereign Palestinian state. This is basically asking Israel to give up its dreams of taking over the Palestinian territories and to withdraw to its own borders - a simple ask. 2. Alternatively, Israel gets to keep the Palestinian territories, but it has to grant full, equal citizenship to the Palestinians who live there. That would mean that 50% of the Israeli electorate would be Palestinian, effectively ending the Jewish nature of the state of Israel. The next prime minister could be a Palestinian - who knows? Israel has held onto the Palestinian territories for nearly 60 years without granting the people who live there (except for Israeli settlers) any rights. It has to either leave the occupied territories or grant everyone who lives under its control equal rights. It's actually quite a simple and reasonable demand. Right now, because of unconditional US support, Israel has no incentive to do either of the above. Israel's leaders correctly believe that they can have it all: they can keep the land without granting the Palestinians who live there any rights. They operate with complete impunity. The US could end that impunity and impose real costs on Israel for its actions.

tayo42 1y ago
Your ignoring or forgetting that Palestinians don't want either of those solutions, and that's a core part of the conflict.
- DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
  The Palestinians pursued a 2-state solution (option 1 above) for over two decades. It failed largely because of dead-set opposition from the Israeli right (thanks Netanyahu) and because even the Israeli center-left was unwilling to fully withdraw to Israel's internationally recognized borders and recognize a fully sovereign Palestinian state. There were always demands to keep large chunks of territory (most critically in East Jerusalem) and maintain effective control over any future Palestinian semi-state. Both options laid out above (the 2-state and 1-state solution) are vastly better for the Palestinians than living under permanent Israeli military occupation with no rights, and subjected to continuous violence from the Israelis. It would not be the Palestinians who would block these types of solutions, were they actually on offer. The Israelis have a near monopoly on force in this conflict. They are the overwhelmingly dominant party, the only one with tanks, aircraft, destroyers and nuclear weapons. They have the power to dictate solutions, and that's what they've been doing for decades, using brute force. Pretending these are two equal sides that just can't agree is a fantasy.

zaphirplane 1y ago

Therefore Genocide and starvation ? That’s has to be the weakest every physiological argument

goatlover 1y ago

The Iron Dome prevents most of the rocket attacks. Gaza has no protection against what has become indiscriminate Israeli bombing.

dlubarov 1y ago
Air defense alone isn't really a sustainable military strategy against endless rocket attacks. It would become even less viable if Israel lost US military aid, lifted the blockade, and/or stopped bombing things like rocket factories.
LorenPechtel 1y ago
If Israeli bombing really were indiscriminate how did they manage to average less than one dead per bomb dropped in urban/suburban environments?
- Qem 1y ago
  > how did they manage to average less than one dead per bomb dropped in urban/suburban environments? By targeting first responders, jornalists, paramedics, and any professionals able to properly rescue wounded, dead and count the causalties, making available numbers a gross underestimate on the true death toll. Just a few days ago we all watched a staircase full of working first responders and jornalists being blown by israeli tank fire.