5 ms·

Oracle makes me too uneasy. Can I use Java without the worry of incurring Oracle's wrath? Maybe, if I make sure I use openjdk/jump through some hoops I'll be fi

by Foomf 1y ago

Oracle makes me too uneasy. Can I use Java without the worry of incurring Oracle's wrath? Maybe, if I make sure I use openjdk/jump through some hoops I'll be fine. Or, I could just use any other language and not have that worry looming over me. C# is right there if I want a java-like experience without the anxiety of Oracle breaking my kneecaps. I don't know how to use java and not violate one of Oracle's EULAs. I could read about it and figure out how to do it safely, or I could just not use java. Java isn't essential (for greenfield projects). There's lots of good alternatives, so I'd rather do that.

thfuran 1y ago
You don't have to jump through any hoops. If you don't want to deal with Oracle, don't be an enterprise customer of Oracle and instead just get some openjdk distribution.
- brunoborges 1y ago
  > just get some openjdk distribution From several sources: - Oracle themselves, at jdk.java.net - Microsoft, at microsoft.com/openjdk - Red Hat ... - Azul Systems ... - Amazon - Bell Soft - Canonical (Ubuntu ships OpenJDK binaries built by them) - build yourself?
  - lenkite 1y ago
    Just go to https://openjdk.org/ https://openjdk.org/ and click on the "download" link. Or use your OS package manager and <pkgManager> install openjdk. Problem solved. Just like any other software, you know ?
    - brunoborges 1y ago
      That download link takes you to jdk.java.net, which hosts OpenJDK builds built by Oracle.
      - ohdeargodno 1y ago
        [dead]
      - lenkite 1y ago
        I don't get it, what is wrong with that ? Those are OpenJDK binaries and also explicitly named as such not Oracle JDK binaries.
        brunoborges 1y ago
        I am saying that those binaries are built by Oracle: "Production and Early-Access OpenJDK Builds, from Oracle" That's all.
samus 1y ago
Just use OpenJDK (only downside is you have to upgrade every half year) or a distribution of another vendor (most people use Eclipse, or Red Hat if they already are Red Hats customers). It's really not as difficult as it is made out to be. If you use Oracle's distribution of the JDK then you are an enterprise customer and should have the resources to deal with their license terms.
- Foomf 1y ago
  "Am I using the correct language runtime distribution (or version thereof) so I don't get into legal trouble?" Is a question none of Java's competitors have to ask. Even using OpenJDK is a sword of damocles waiting to fall. If I forget to update OpenJDK, Oracle could come after me. It's just risk that I don't have to worry about by choosing not to go with Java. It's probably not a lot of risk, but it's risk nonetheless that doesn't exist with Java's competitors. Competition is so fierce in the language space and there are so many good options that java can't afford to have any friction points like this. EDIT: I got oracle openjdk and oracle jdk mixed up. They're different things. It looks like the oracle openjdk does not have its license change, the oracle jdk does. This is a problem/risk I don't have to worry about with any other language, but getting the two mixed up is on me.
  - lukev 1y ago
    > If I forget to update OpenJDK, Oracle could come after me. What?
    - Foomf 1y ago
      Licensing for OpenJDK is non trivial. Look at the large table and various bullet points Oracle had to make to tell you the license. https://www.oracle.com/java/technologies/javase/jdk-faqs.html https://www.oracle.com/java/technologies/javase/jdk-faqs.htm... (open the first dropdown on their FAQ page to open up their "licensing matrix") This is a mess, and is the license going to change again while I'm locked in the java ecosystem? Edit: It looks like the openjdk is consistently under the gplv2, I don't know why it has so many different entries in their table. I think I probably got opendjk and oracle jdk mixed up. I think the person I was replying to who said openjdk needs to be updated every half year got confused as well. It's so hard to even talk about all the different jdks without getting them mixed up or confused. Again, no other java competitors have this problem.
GuB-42 1y ago
> C# is right there if I want a java-like experience without the anxiety of Oracle breaking my kneecaps. Is Microsoft really better than Oracle in that regard?
- mrsmrtss 1y ago
  If we look at .NET vs Java, then yes, Microsoft is better. Microsoft may charge for some of its dev tools (Visual Studio etc), but .NET itself is and was always totally free.
  - HackerThemAll 1y ago
    And .NET is truly cross-platform for 11 years already (since .NET Core 3.0 was released). No licensing/patent/litigation issues since then. Great GUI cross-platform GUI toolkit (MAUI), great WASM engine (Blazor). Upcoming .NET 10 is going to be awesome.
    - NekkoDroid 1y ago
      Isn't the official MAUI still basically "everything but Linux"? I haven't been keeping up with that the last 2 or so years and I just remember there being an unofficial GTK implementation somewhere in the interwebs, but nothing being officially supported on Linux.
      - HackerThemAll 1y ago
        Linux desktop has a tiny market share. No reason to invest significant resources for that. Also, by supporting MAUI on Linux, Microsoft would feed their own competition in desktop area, and it's crucial for them to maintain dominance in that area. I think this is why they did not port the great WPF to Linux as well. And besides, Linux desktop is a mess. I never learned details on how Wayland / X11 / KDE / Gnome etc. work, which is for what. All I know is that some distros switch from one to another, that one is declared the best, and another the worst, and all of it changes regularly. I'm glad someone in Canonical made the desktop mostly working for me in Ubuntu, although it still lacks a lot compared to Windows. I think when you need that level of cross platform support to cover Windows, Linux, macOS, maybe mobiles, and you do a serious project, you use Qt.
andrewl-hn 1y ago
My semi-conspiracy theory is that the success of Rust is partially due to BigTech companies searching for a "legally-safe" alternative to Java. The multi-year Google vs Oracle lawsuit put the likes of Amazon and Facebook to unease. And meanwhile there was this safe and performant language with no strings attached under a nice Apache license. They quickly made a Foundation around it as a 501(c)(6) - trade association, and not a "public good"-kind of a non-profit. This essentially means that as long as you're a member and pay the fees you won't be sued - exactly what all these companies wanted. So now they all keep up the funding and employ some of the compiler developers to keep the lights on for next 20 years or longer. The fact that the language itself is really good for what they need it for is obviously the major reason why they support it, but the legal side of things definitely helped with adoption.
- HackerThemAll 1y ago
  This conspiracy theory would explain not only success of Rust, but also Go language and C#/.NET, and any other Java competitor. I'd say it's 90% because of Oracle and its lawyer-driven business, and 10% because the language is just ugly, and existing libraries are super-ugly and unreadable, with all these Factories and AbstractFactories, and all design patterns forced like a religion whether they're useful or not in a specific context.
- nirvdrum 1y ago
  I'm not sure where things fall on your timeline, but in case you missed it, Amazon has their own Java distribution called Corretto. It was first publicly released in 2018: https://downloads.corretto.aws/#/overview https://downloads.corretto.aws/#/overview
brunoborges 1y ago
> Oracle makes me too uneasy. Can I use Java without the worry of incurring Oracle's wrath? Hey! I work at Microsoft and helped us launch the Microsoft Build of OpenJDK. I can categorically say that yes you can use Java without worrying. As long as you don't use a commercial binary from a vendor that has certain licensing restrictions. Our build of OpenJDK is free for any use, and comes with commercial support (you know, the one you can open a ticket and ask us to look into the issue) at no extra cost for workloads on Azure.
- stu2421 1y ago
  From another HN very :) lengthy thread: "Where I work now, we went through 2 or 3 rounds of funding. Each round involved lawyers doing due dilligence, checking the licensing of all the software we use, and all the libraries we use, and so on. No issues were raised regarding Java or MySql. Bottom line, I don't know the difference between this and that license, what I do know is that Oracle licensing for Java and MySql gave us zero grief." Apr '18 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16859559 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16859559

by Foomf 1y ago

thfuran 1y ago

You don't have to jump through any hoops. If you don't want to deal with Oracle, don't be an enterprise customer of Oracle and instead just get some openjdk distribution.

brunoborges 1y ago
> just get some openjdk distribution From several sources: - Oracle themselves, at jdk.java.net - Microsoft, at microsoft.com/openjdk - Red Hat ... - Azul Systems ... - Amazon - Bell Soft - Canonical (Ubuntu ships OpenJDK binaries built by them) - build yourself?
- lenkite 1y ago
  Just go to https://openjdk.org/ https://openjdk.org/ and click on the "download" link. Or use your OS package manager and <pkgManager> install openjdk. Problem solved. Just like any other software, you know ?
  - brunoborges 1y ago
    That download link takes you to jdk.java.net, which hosts OpenJDK builds built by Oracle.
    - ohdeargodno 1y ago
      [dead]
    - lenkite 1y ago
      I don't get it, what is wrong with that ? Those are OpenJDK binaries and also explicitly named as such not Oracle JDK binaries.
      - brunoborges 1y ago
        I am saying that those binaries are built by Oracle: "Production and Early-Access OpenJDK Builds, from Oracle" That's all.

samus 1y ago

Just use OpenJDK (only downside is you have to upgrade every half year) or a distribution of another vendor (most people use Eclipse, or Red Hat if they already are Red Hats customers). It's really not as difficult as it is made out to be. If you use Oracle's distribution of the JDK then you are an enterprise customer and should have the resources to deal with their license terms.

Foomf 1y ago
"Am I using the correct language runtime distribution (or version thereof) so I don't get into legal trouble?" Is a question none of Java's competitors have to ask. Even using OpenJDK is a sword of damocles waiting to fall. If I forget to update OpenJDK, Oracle could come after me. It's just risk that I don't have to worry about by choosing not to go with Java. It's probably not a lot of risk, but it's risk nonetheless that doesn't exist with Java's competitors. Competition is so fierce in the language space and there are so many good options that java can't afford to have any friction points like this. EDIT: I got oracle openjdk and oracle jdk mixed up. They're different things. It looks like the oracle openjdk does not have its license change, the oracle jdk does. This is a problem/risk I don't have to worry about with any other language, but getting the two mixed up is on me.
- lukev 1y ago
  > If I forget to update OpenJDK, Oracle could come after me. What?
  - Foomf 1y ago
    Licensing for OpenJDK is non trivial. Look at the large table and various bullet points Oracle had to make to tell you the license. https://www.oracle.com/java/technologies/javase/jdk-faqs.html https://www.oracle.com/java/technologies/javase/jdk-faqs.htm... (open the first dropdown on their FAQ page to open up their "licensing matrix") This is a mess, and is the license going to change again while I'm locked in the java ecosystem? Edit: It looks like the openjdk is consistently under the gplv2, I don't know why it has so many different entries in their table. I think I probably got opendjk and oracle jdk mixed up. I think the person I was replying to who said openjdk needs to be updated every half year got confused as well. It's so hard to even talk about all the different jdks without getting them mixed up or confused. Again, no other java competitors have this problem.

GuB-42 1y ago

> C# is right there if I want a java-like experience without the anxiety of Oracle breaking my kneecaps. Is Microsoft really better than Oracle in that regard?

mrsmrtss 1y ago
If we look at .NET vs Java, then yes, Microsoft is better. Microsoft may charge for some of its dev tools (Visual Studio etc), but .NET itself is and was always totally free.
- HackerThemAll 1y ago
  And .NET is truly cross-platform for 11 years already (since .NET Core 3.0 was released). No licensing/patent/litigation issues since then. Great GUI cross-platform GUI toolkit (MAUI), great WASM engine (Blazor). Upcoming .NET 10 is going to be awesome.
  - NekkoDroid 1y ago
    Isn't the official MAUI still basically "everything but Linux"? I haven't been keeping up with that the last 2 or so years and I just remember there being an unofficial GTK implementation somewhere in the interwebs, but nothing being officially supported on Linux.
    - HackerThemAll 1y ago
      Linux desktop has a tiny market share. No reason to invest significant resources for that. Also, by supporting MAUI on Linux, Microsoft would feed their own competition in desktop area, and it's crucial for them to maintain dominance in that area. I think this is why they did not port the great WPF to Linux as well. And besides, Linux desktop is a mess. I never learned details on how Wayland / X11 / KDE / Gnome etc. work, which is for what. All I know is that some distros switch from one to another, that one is declared the best, and another the worst, and all of it changes regularly. I'm glad someone in Canonical made the desktop mostly working for me in Ubuntu, although it still lacks a lot compared to Windows. I think when you need that level of cross platform support to cover Windows, Linux, macOS, maybe mobiles, and you do a serious project, you use Qt.

andrewl-hn 1y ago

My semi-conspiracy theory is that the success of Rust is partially due to BigTech companies searching for a "legally-safe" alternative to Java. The multi-year Google vs Oracle lawsuit put the likes of Amazon and Facebook to unease. And meanwhile there was this safe and performant language with no strings attached under a nice Apache license. They quickly made a Foundation around it as a 501(c)(6) - trade association, and not a "public good"-kind of a non-profit. This essentially means that as long as you're a member and pay the fees you won't be sued - exactly what all these companies wanted. So now they all keep up the funding and employ some of the compiler developers to keep the lights on for next 20 years or longer. The fact that the language itself is really good for what they need it for is obviously the major reason why they support it, but the legal side of things definitely helped with adoption.

HackerThemAll 1y ago
This conspiracy theory would explain not only success of Rust, but also Go language and C#/.NET, and any other Java competitor. I'd say it's 90% because of Oracle and its lawyer-driven business, and 10% because the language is just ugly, and existing libraries are super-ugly and unreadable, with all these Factories and AbstractFactories, and all design patterns forced like a religion whether they're useful or not in a specific context.
nirvdrum 1y ago
I'm not sure where things fall on your timeline, but in case you missed it, Amazon has their own Java distribution called Corretto. It was first publicly released in 2018: https://downloads.corretto.aws/#/overview https://downloads.corretto.aws/#/overview

brunoborges 1y ago

> Oracle makes me too uneasy. Can I use Java without the worry of incurring Oracle's wrath? Hey! I work at Microsoft and helped us launch the Microsoft Build of OpenJDK. I can categorically say that yes you can use Java without worrying. As long as you don't use a commercial binary from a vendor that has certain licensing restrictions. Our build of OpenJDK is free for any use, and comes with commercial support (you know, the one you can open a ticket and ask us to look into the issue) at no extra cost for workloads on Azure.

stu2421 1y ago
From another HN very :) lengthy thread: "Where I work now, we went through 2 or 3 rounds of funding. Each round involved lawyers doing due dilligence, checking the licensing of all the software we use, and all the libraries we use, and so on. No issues were raised regarding Java or MySql. Bottom line, I don't know the difference between this and that license, what I do know is that Oracle licensing for Java and MySql gave us zero grief." Apr '18 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16859559 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16859559