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>> it’s a company that I feel has lost its alignment with me and other long-time Apple users and customers. > When OS X debuted there was a daytime radio talk

>> it’s a company that I feel has lost its alignment with me and other long-time Apple users and customers. > When OS X debuted there was a daytime radio talk show in my area called “The Computer Guys.” They capably covered all sorts of computing topics, but were clearly long-time Apple dudes. And they spent weeks complaining about what a disaster OS X was. The Dock was useless and violated Apple’s HIG. The Finder made all the same mistakes as Windows did. And a text terminal? Like DOS?? Who the hell is ever going to want to use that on a Mac? I kind of see it differently. That is, Apple did in fact lose the alignment with the Classic MacOS fans but Apple did it on purpose. Objectively, by 2001 standards MacOS sucked and you wouldn't want to align with people who think otherwise. As the result Apple broke out of a small stagnating niche and won a big market. This is different from today's situation where it feels like Apple breaks the alignment not on purpose and not by innovation but rather just slowly drifts out. There's a theory in the comments that they want to align with "people who want the best camera array and have money to burn". This could be true but even then it doesn't look like a good strategy to win a big market long-term. More like a retreat back into a small niche that may stagnate in the future, like "people who want the best publishing software and have money to burn".

card_zero 1y ago
> Objectively, by 2001 standards MacOS sucked and you wouldn't want to align with people who think otherwise. I see, so like "Don't think different"?
- alexey-salmin 1y ago
  By 2001 the Classic MacOS wasn't really "different", it was largely the same as the System 7 release from 10 years ago. The NeXTSTEP on the other hand was quite different. Different from MacOS, from DOS/Windows and from proprietary UNIXes. I would argue that switching to NeXTSTEP was more aligned with the original spirit of "think different" than getting stuck in the old ways.
  - card_zero 1y ago
    Like another post says, "The Mac was a philosophy". I bought a series of them but stopped around the year 2000 because they threw away the philosophy in favor of innovation. I think things were going south already around 1998. Remember Sherlock? On system 8.5 it would regularly interrupt the user (sending games from full screen to windowed) to display a dialog to say that it was indexing files. This couldn't be turned off except by disabling the Sherlock extension altogether. That says that Sherlock's mission wasn't to help the user do user activities, but to get the user out of the way of Sherlock's activities, while keeping the user informed about the magnificence of Sherlock. This attitude became really popular with every OS that was competing to be innovative, and we're still stuck with it today. Shut up user, pay attention, look at my features!
    - TylerE 1y ago
      That was because MacOS classic couldn’t multitask
      - card_zero 1y ago
        Sure it could, it had cooperative multitasking. Inside Macintosh instructed programmers on the importance of politely giving way to other processes. https://archive.org/details/inside-macintosh-1992-1994/1992-processes/page/n18/mode/1up https://archive.org/details/inside-macintosh-1992-1994/1992-... WaitNextEvent (hmm, a Windows call has the same name, but functions differently I think).
        TylerE 1y ago
        Multitasking via mandatory manual yields isn’t.
        pjmlp 1y ago
        It is, that is why there is preemptive multitasking and non-preemptive multitasking.
amelius 1y ago
> There's a theory in the comments that they want to align with "people who want the best camera array and have money to burn". I agree with you and this theory sounds like moving goalposts. First people claimed that the free market will always give the consumer what they want. Then this turned out to be not true (we even have a term, enshittification), and now people come up with a more "refined" theory. Why would it be true this time?
- poszlem 1y ago
  Could it be that "people" that say that are different groups of people?
  - tcmart14 1y ago
    This is the other side of it. "Online everyone complains about X," but everyone is 200 randos online, hardly conclusive. If anything its more like the yelp effect. The people who are most likely to complain and celebrate online are the small vocal slice. Not even online really. The vast majority of people just dont give a damn so long as youtube, calls, and texting works (if its a phone), or whatever are probably the most common 3-4 activities most users do.
- AlexandrB 1y ago
  > First people claimed that the free market will always give the consumer what they want. Enshittification does give consumers what they want: free stuff. People will deny it up and down and claim they would pay for non-enshittified Facebook, for example. But how many people actually would pay a subscription to use a Facebook style service? Enough to build sustain a company of Meta's size? Probably not. How many people pay for Kagi?
  - coldtea 1y ago
    >Enshittification does give consumers what they want: free stuff Nope. Enshittifition happens to paid stuff just as well, including stuff you pay more (including when inflation adjusted) from what you paid before. It's about futher increasing the profit margins, whether it's a paid product or not, not about affording to give something for free.
cm2187 1y ago
Pre MacOS X was a 90s style OS and had major limitations that were a problem for every user, starting with no real multi-threading, and I think no protected memory. Where it was great was in the simplicity to the user. If you wanted to install or uninstall a driver or functionality, all you had to do is move an extension file in or out of the extension folder and reboot. That simplicity was lost in MacOS X. That made simple users dumber. (and iOS went back to the simplicity)
- nottorp 1y ago
  Locking down the OS so you can't install or uninstall functionality at all is not simplicity.
  - FrustratedMonky 1y ago
    It is if Grandma keeps downloading scams and installing them.
    - nottorp 1y ago
      You mean there are no scams in the famous "we're protecting you from all those internet evil guys by charging you app subscriptions" app stores?
      - chipsrafferty 1y ago
        Of course not, but Grandma is very cost sensitive and doesn't subscribe to any of that.
    - bigstrat2003 1y ago
      No, even then it still isn't. A device should not protect you from making bad decisions. It should be an aid in making good choices, not a nanny keeping you safe because you can't be trusted to do better.
      - FrustratedMonky 1y ago
asimovfan 1y ago
people will sell their things and buy it. especially now that it seems to have this epithet that it is for "people who want the best camera array and have money to burn"

card_zero 1y ago

> Objectively, by 2001 standards MacOS sucked and you wouldn't want to align with people who think otherwise. I see, so like "Don't think different"?

alexey-salmin 1y ago
By 2001 the Classic MacOS wasn't really "different", it was largely the same as the System 7 release from 10 years ago. The NeXTSTEP on the other hand was quite different. Different from MacOS, from DOS/Windows and from proprietary UNIXes. I would argue that switching to NeXTSTEP was more aligned with the original spirit of "think different" than getting stuck in the old ways.
- card_zero 1y ago
  Like another post says, "The Mac was a philosophy". I bought a series of them but stopped around the year 2000 because they threw away the philosophy in favor of innovation. I think things were going south already around 1998. Remember Sherlock? On system 8.5 it would regularly interrupt the user (sending games from full screen to windowed) to display a dialog to say that it was indexing files. This couldn't be turned off except by disabling the Sherlock extension altogether. That says that Sherlock's mission wasn't to help the user do user activities, but to get the user out of the way of Sherlock's activities, while keeping the user informed about the magnificence of Sherlock. This attitude became really popular with every OS that was competing to be innovative, and we're still stuck with it today. Shut up user, pay attention, look at my features!
  - TylerE 1y ago
    That was because MacOS classic couldn’t multitask
    - card_zero 1y ago
      Sure it could, it had cooperative multitasking. Inside Macintosh instructed programmers on the importance of politely giving way to other processes. https://archive.org/details/inside-macintosh-1992-1994/1992-processes/page/n18/mode/1up https://archive.org/details/inside-macintosh-1992-1994/1992-... WaitNextEvent (hmm, a Windows call has the same name, but functions differently I think).
      - TylerE 1y ago
        Multitasking via mandatory manual yields isn’t.
        pjmlp 1y ago
        It is, that is why there is preemptive multitasking and non-preemptive multitasking.

amelius 1y ago

> There's a theory in the comments that they want to align with "people who want the best camera array and have money to burn". I agree with you and this theory sounds like moving goalposts. First people claimed that the free market will always give the consumer what they want. Then this turned out to be not true (we even have a term, enshittification), and now people come up with a more "refined" theory. Why would it be true this time?

poszlem 1y ago
Could it be that "people" that say that are different groups of people?
- tcmart14 1y ago
  This is the other side of it. "Online everyone complains about X," but everyone is 200 randos online, hardly conclusive. If anything its more like the yelp effect. The people who are most likely to complain and celebrate online are the small vocal slice. Not even online really. The vast majority of people just dont give a damn so long as youtube, calls, and texting works (if its a phone), or whatever are probably the most common 3-4 activities most users do.
AlexandrB 1y ago
> First people claimed that the free market will always give the consumer what they want. Enshittification does give consumers what they want: free stuff. People will deny it up and down and claim they would pay for non-enshittified Facebook, for example. But how many people actually would pay a subscription to use a Facebook style service? Enough to build sustain a company of Meta's size? Probably not. How many people pay for Kagi?
- coldtea 1y ago
  >Enshittification does give consumers what they want: free stuff Nope. Enshittifition happens to paid stuff just as well, including stuff you pay more (including when inflation adjusted) from what you paid before. It's about futher increasing the profit margins, whether it's a paid product or not, not about affording to give something for free.

cm2187 1y ago

Pre MacOS X was a 90s style OS and had major limitations that were a problem for every user, starting with no real multi-threading, and I think no protected memory. Where it was great was in the simplicity to the user. If you wanted to install or uninstall a driver or functionality, all you had to do is move an extension file in or out of the extension folder and reboot. That simplicity was lost in MacOS X. That made simple users dumber. (and iOS went back to the simplicity)

nottorp 1y ago
Locking down the OS so you can't install or uninstall functionality at all is not simplicity.
- FrustratedMonky 1y ago
  It is if Grandma keeps downloading scams and installing them.
  - nottorp 1y ago
    You mean there are no scams in the famous "we're protecting you from all those internet evil guys by charging you app subscriptions" app stores?
    - chipsrafferty 1y ago
      Of course not, but Grandma is very cost sensitive and doesn't subscribe to any of that.
  - bigstrat2003 1y ago
    No, even then it still isn't. A device should not protect you from making bad decisions. It should be an aid in making good choices, not a nanny keeping you safe because you can't be trusted to do better.
    - FrustratedMonky 1y ago

asimovfan 1y ago

people will sell their things and buy it. especially now that it seems to have this epithet that it is for "people who want the best camera array and have money to burn"