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> If the latest product seems good, buy it. If not, don’t. There is another aspect to this though. As a user of an ecosystem, you're committed in many ways. A

> If the latest product seems good, buy it. If not, don’t. There is another aspect to this though. As a user of an ecosystem, you're committed in many ways. As Apple or Microsoft or Google releases a new version of their operating system you're going to run that on hardware you already own. You're going to run software that you already own on that the OS. And you're doing to use skills and knowledge of that software to accomplish something useful. In some ways it doesn't matter if the product is good or bad -- you're pretty committed. You're going to be willing to suffer some pain because the alternative is too difficult and too expensive. The only thing you really can do is complain.

grues-dinner 1y ago
To be honest I sometimes feel that my aversion to getting looked into an ecosystem is actually a detriment in some ways. I have a horrible mishmash of apps and programs and nothing integrates really well long term (story of life on a Linux desktop, really). Maybe life would really be better if I just hand over control and become a true believer!
- von_lohengramm 1y ago
  I used to go through phases where I would try this. I gave Windows + WSL a shot. I gave embracing the Apple ecosystem a shot. I gave GNOME a shot. I gave KDE a shot. I was even crazy enough to give ChromeOS as my daily driver a shot. And so on and so forth. I found every single time that it just wasn't worth it. There was always some critical failure that was either completely underlooked or a 20 year old bug/shortcoming that had every patch to fix it rejected. I genuinely don't understand how people tolerate the dogshit being forcefed to you on all of these controlled platforms. People say that everything is getting worse, and it's true, but it's also true that you're actively choosing to use the things that are getting worse. I've eventually settled on NixOS and XFCE so I can tweak things to my particular needs while also benefiting from an army of unpaid labor continually improving nixpkgs and other flakes. This setup isn't perfect, but I've optimized for maximal comfort & utility while exerting minimal effort & time. Things really only break when they're self-updating under the hood, which thankfully is rather rare in nixpkgs.
  - wvenable 1y ago
    I love how contradictory this comment is. "There was always some critical failure... this setup isn't perfect... things really only break when..." Everybody has different needs and something you don't care about on Windows or Mac or Gnome might be critically important for someone else.
    - von_lohengramm 1y ago
      There's nothing contradictory here. Not once do I say that I've found the best solution. I merely reached a point where more effort & time spent on this problem will only give me a worse solution. And of course this is merely for myself and everybody has different needs. I never claimed otherwise. The crux of the issue is that we all disagree on what's good and bad, what's necessary and pointless, and too many people are just willingly accepting what's being given to them even if it's worse by their own metrics.
      - wvenable 1y ago
        Are too many people willingly accepting what is being given to them or do they actually have different needs that are almost entirely met by these products that they can't achieve easily with an entirely different ecosystem?
- deafpolygon 1y ago
  I've tried this on various platforms (Microsoft, Linux, Apple)... the only one that does it the least worst is Apple. And you get a bunch of other stuff with it, too. Linux is nigh impossible, and the feeling I get with Microsoft is I'm being exploited.
- throwaway2037 1y ago
  > a horrible mishmash of apps and programs and nothing integrates really well long term (story of life on a Linux desktop, really) I'm confused. What is so bad about GNU/Linux/(KDE or GNOME)? I am a long time KDE user, but I have no ill will towards GNOME. Once a while, I need to use an app from the GNOME ecosystem, or use a GNOME desktop. It is never hard to navigate. GNOME vs KDE feels a bit like English from US vs UK -- black cat/white cat... they are still cats.
  - grues-dinner 1y ago
    I used to use i3. Even now I've mostly moved to Cinnamon via KDE (which I abandoned as Plasma made my laptop fans spin too much, maybe user error? I never solved it) I haven't "settled" on anywhere and never really felt either was good enough to commit to. Obviously you don't have to commit, but you end up kind of unmoored. Especially as a lot of GNOME apps seem somewhat lacking so I often end up using, say, Okular or XReader rather than Evince, or CuteCom rather than whatever the GNOME serial terminal is. And I also gave up on vim as an editor so I don't really even have a "home" editor other than VS Code which is just kind of default. Plus a bunch of Windows only industrial and East Asian software the only works via a VM which is pretty clunky. I used to use Macs at work and while I never really loved the experience (and certainly not that of fiddling with kernel drivers) and write keenly felt the metaphorical guards watching from the towers, it really did feel like a thought-through experience for a normal computer user.
2muchcoffeeman 1y ago
I’m a long time Apple user. But I never do anything that locks me into Apple in a way that makes me dependent on Apple. I could move to Linux tomorrow and everything I depend on would be fine. There’s no Apple service I actually need. I think Google and Android is worse in this way. The backup Android I had years ago forced me to login with my Gmail or I couldn’t use it. My old iPhone happily runs without being logged in. I just lose the cloud features. Whatever.
- nixosbestos 1y ago
  ... That's theft protection, and iphones have similar mechanisms. You do not need to sign in, even to a pixel, to use it. Granted you won't get the app store, but you don't get that on iphone either.
- petesergeant 1y ago
  Doesn’t your hardware lock you in?
  - 2muchcoffeeman 1y ago
    What? I can and have accessed everything I need on Linux. If you make sure none of your data is locked in, the hardware is just a computer. Absolute worst case, get a new computer.
  - carlosjobim 1y ago
    No. You can always export your files and your passwords etc.
- lwhi 1y ago
  What are you going to do with all your Mac hardware? Throw it in the bin?
- opan 1y ago
  I've used my past several Android phones without signing into a Google account or using gapps. I pick something with LineageOS support (usually OnePlus stuff) and get it from eBay, update to latest stock firmware (gets newer baseband and such) then flash LineageOS over it and get my apps from F-Droid.
jajko 1y ago
This isn't true when literally everywhere else outside of Apple, and only a problem if you are deep in their ecosystem. Why? Open standards, nothing proprietary and closed and fuck you all. I have phone that's from Samsung, earplugs from Sennheiser, thinking about buying watch from Garmin (Fenix 8 pro), have chargers and powerbanks from Anker, laptop from Dell. Bluetooth, USBC and other standards. Its beyond good enough for me, and I can switch each component for a better one from another company if I want (apart from those Sennheisers, no company makes better sounding earplugs and they integrate flawlessly for my needs).
- Melatonic 1y ago
  Forerunner 955 is a lot cheaper (can still be bought new from Garmin) and does most of what the Fenix does ! And it's lighter
carlosjobim 1y ago
You don't have to update the OS. And no, you won't have any security issues as a personal computer user.

grues-dinner 1y ago

To be honest I sometimes feel that my aversion to getting looked into an ecosystem is actually a detriment in some ways. I have a horrible mishmash of apps and programs and nothing integrates really well long term (story of life on a Linux desktop, really). Maybe life would really be better if I just hand over control and become a true believer!

von_lohengramm 1y ago
I used to go through phases where I would try this. I gave Windows + WSL a shot. I gave embracing the Apple ecosystem a shot. I gave GNOME a shot. I gave KDE a shot. I was even crazy enough to give ChromeOS as my daily driver a shot. And so on and so forth. I found every single time that it just wasn't worth it. There was always some critical failure that was either completely underlooked or a 20 year old bug/shortcoming that had every patch to fix it rejected. I genuinely don't understand how people tolerate the dogshit being forcefed to you on all of these controlled platforms. People say that everything is getting worse, and it's true, but it's also true that you're actively choosing to use the things that are getting worse. I've eventually settled on NixOS and XFCE so I can tweak things to my particular needs while also benefiting from an army of unpaid labor continually improving nixpkgs and other flakes. This setup isn't perfect, but I've optimized for maximal comfort & utility while exerting minimal effort & time. Things really only break when they're self-updating under the hood, which thankfully is rather rare in nixpkgs.
- wvenable 1y ago
  I love how contradictory this comment is. "There was always some critical failure... this setup isn't perfect... things really only break when..." Everybody has different needs and something you don't care about on Windows or Mac or Gnome might be critically important for someone else.
  - von_lohengramm 1y ago
    There's nothing contradictory here. Not once do I say that I've found the best solution. I merely reached a point where more effort & time spent on this problem will only give me a worse solution. And of course this is merely for myself and everybody has different needs. I never claimed otherwise. The crux of the issue is that we all disagree on what's good and bad, what's necessary and pointless, and too many people are just willingly accepting what's being given to them even if it's worse by their own metrics.
    - wvenable 1y ago
      Are too many people willingly accepting what is being given to them or do they actually have different needs that are almost entirely met by these products that they can't achieve easily with an entirely different ecosystem?
deafpolygon 1y ago
I've tried this on various platforms (Microsoft, Linux, Apple)... the only one that does it the least worst is Apple. And you get a bunch of other stuff with it, too. Linux is nigh impossible, and the feeling I get with Microsoft is I'm being exploited.
throwaway2037 1y ago
> a horrible mishmash of apps and programs and nothing integrates really well long term (story of life on a Linux desktop, really) I'm confused. What is so bad about GNU/Linux/(KDE or GNOME)? I am a long time KDE user, but I have no ill will towards GNOME. Once a while, I need to use an app from the GNOME ecosystem, or use a GNOME desktop. It is never hard to navigate. GNOME vs KDE feels a bit like English from US vs UK -- black cat/white cat... they are still cats.
- grues-dinner 1y ago
  I used to use i3. Even now I've mostly moved to Cinnamon via KDE (which I abandoned as Plasma made my laptop fans spin too much, maybe user error? I never solved it) I haven't "settled" on anywhere and never really felt either was good enough to commit to. Obviously you don't have to commit, but you end up kind of unmoored. Especially as a lot of GNOME apps seem somewhat lacking so I often end up using, say, Okular or XReader rather than Evince, or CuteCom rather than whatever the GNOME serial terminal is. And I also gave up on vim as an editor so I don't really even have a "home" editor other than VS Code which is just kind of default. Plus a bunch of Windows only industrial and East Asian software the only works via a VM which is pretty clunky. I used to use Macs at work and while I never really loved the experience (and certainly not that of fiddling with kernel drivers) and write keenly felt the metaphorical guards watching from the towers, it really did feel like a thought-through experience for a normal computer user.

2muchcoffeeman 1y ago

I’m a long time Apple user. But I never do anything that locks me into Apple in a way that makes me dependent on Apple. I could move to Linux tomorrow and everything I depend on would be fine. There’s no Apple service I actually need. I think Google and Android is worse in this way. The backup Android I had years ago forced me to login with my Gmail or I couldn’t use it. My old iPhone happily runs without being logged in. I just lose the cloud features. Whatever.

nixosbestos 1y ago
... That's theft protection, and iphones have similar mechanisms. You do not need to sign in, even to a pixel, to use it. Granted you won't get the app store, but you don't get that on iphone either.
petesergeant 1y ago
Doesn’t your hardware lock you in?
- 2muchcoffeeman 1y ago
  What? I can and have accessed everything I need on Linux. If you make sure none of your data is locked in, the hardware is just a computer. Absolute worst case, get a new computer.
- carlosjobim 1y ago
  No. You can always export your files and your passwords etc.
lwhi 1y ago
What are you going to do with all your Mac hardware? Throw it in the bin?
opan 1y ago
I've used my past several Android phones without signing into a Google account or using gapps. I pick something with LineageOS support (usually OnePlus stuff) and get it from eBay, update to latest stock firmware (gets newer baseband and such) then flash LineageOS over it and get my apps from F-Droid.

jajko 1y ago

This isn't true when literally everywhere else outside of Apple, and only a problem if you are deep in their ecosystem. Why? Open standards, nothing proprietary and closed and fuck you all. I have phone that's from Samsung, earplugs from Sennheiser, thinking about buying watch from Garmin (Fenix 8 pro), have chargers and powerbanks from Anker, laptop from Dell. Bluetooth, USBC and other standards. Its beyond good enough for me, and I can switch each component for a better one from another company if I want (apart from those Sennheisers, no company makes better sounding earplugs and they integrate flawlessly for my needs).

Melatonic 1y ago
Forerunner 955 is a lot cheaper (can still be bought new from Garmin) and does most of what the Fenix does ! And it's lighter

carlosjobim 1y ago

You don't have to update the OS. And no, you won't have any security issues as a personal computer user.