9 ms·
Why We Spiral
- teddyh 1y agoOriginal title: “Why We Spiral”; mangled by HN to the incomprehensible “We Spiral”.
- admissionsguy 1y agoI found the shortened one accurate and also thought provoking
- chrisweekly 1y agoI think the shortened title is actually better; the essay doesn't go deep into "why", it's more a set of observations illustrating that we do in fact spiral.
- MarkLowenstein 1y agoI figured it was going to be about WeWork circling the drain. Thankfully it wasn't.
- airstrike 1y agoFYI HN does edit out the "Why", but OP can go in and modify the title after submitting.
- daveguy 1y agoMaybe HN needs an "if num_words > 3" before the "delete leading Why". Or maybe an "if char_count > CHAR_LIMIT" before the "delete leading Why". Or just don't. What a near guaranteed way to mangle the meaning of a title.
- pinkmuffinere 1y ago90% of the time it works and you don’t notice the system because you only see the good result. This is the rare event when it breaks and you do notice.
- isoprophlex 1y agoThat makes one wonder what happens if one was to submit a story titled "Why"
- layer8 1y agoIt remains as “Why”. Same for “Why not?”. Maybe it needs at least three words. Though “Why why why“ also isn’t changed. Apologies to anyone who came across my experiments.
- t43562 1y agoI think it's useful to try to always assume the best from others: - If they aren't being friendly this will irritate them in a way they cannot object to too openly. - If they are friendly it will avoid damage and even start an upward spiral. When you're not feeling good enough it's sometimes helpful to remember that even people who create negative impacts often get into positions of power and stay there for one reason or another. i.e if they can do something very badly then why are you so worried about whether you are worthy? Finally, remember that lots of people feel like you - so try to do little things that start them on an upward spiral. The more you do this for other people, the more they will be glad to see you.
- cxr 1y ago> The more you do this for other people, the more they will be glad to see you. That's not a given. That's the rational response on their end, but not only is no one perfectly rational, but some people are very, very irrational. It can sometimes[1][2] be the case that the best option is to be among those who don't attract any attention at all. Separately: The spiraling described in this post is worth consideration, but equally worthy are the odd disparities in professional life (or life in general) and the negative consequences that aren't the result of internal forces like paralyzing self-doubt. Consider an article that starts just like this one, except it focuses on the different consequences experienced by Dawn who is regularly forgiven for things like tardiness and mistakes in her work in contrast to more severe outcomes for Hila, who after arriving late—perhaps for the first time, even—is perceived to be fucking up because that's in her irresponsible nature[3]—even if a sober, objective analysis would reveal that Hila is actually exceeding the expectations one would have for any employee (and her transgressions are well behind the line of courtesy that is extended to Dawn)—for no other reason than Hila being younger or newer to the company. This can result in a similar spiral of defeat, but it's a kind of defeat by external forces rather than self-defeat. 1. Depending on your environment/experience, you could even say "very often" 2. See also <https://hn.algolia.com/?query=copenhagen%20strikes%20again&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?query=copenhagen%20strikes%20again&t...> 3. See also <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_attribution_error https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_attribution_error>
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- petercooper 1y agoYour mind doesn’t, though. It’s still ruminating. Was that snark in my boss’s voice? Were they talking about me before I logged on? I wonder if some of this could also be related to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostile_attribution_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostile_attribution_bias where some people simply see ambiguous or benign behavior they don't like and interpret it as hostile.
- makeitdouble 1y agoI read it as just being context dependent. The "Tripoli" vs "Triple E" bit in the article was to me another anecdote on how we resolve ambiguity based on what we have in our mind's stack at the moment: > A friend once told me of an ingenious class demonstration that helped her begin to understand this process. A professor split the class in two and then spoke to the first half alone, telling them of his love for travel and a recent trip to Libya. Next, he spoke to the second half about shopping and how hard it was to find the right size shoe. Last, he brought the class together and said a single word. He asked the students to write it down. Students in the first group wrote, “Tripoli.” Those in the second wrote, “Triple E.”
- normie3000 1y agoI'm intrigued where this story originated. What country measures shoes in bra sizes?
- ikjasdlk2234 1y agoI've found that handwritten letters, to my friends and to my colleagues, tends to go a very long way in making someone's day. Something that takes me ten minutes tends to make a difference for a month of more.
- SamoyedFurFluff 1y agoAs a person with long experiences in trauma responses, I see this sort of behavior pattern everywhere. There’s so much “trust your gut!!” advice when the gut can be deeply wrong especially when it comes to identifying interpersonal threats. We don’t educate people in how to process their feelings in a healthy manner and to differentiate what they feel is happening and how they should behave. This results in anything like saying someone has “bad vibes” to be a reason to exclude them, to actively covering for someone with a known pattern of harming people simply because they are charming.
- andrewflnr 1y agoBut you also get disasters when people ignore their gut/"vibes" and try to do the "rational" thing based on more easily nameable evidence. The gut is not reliable, but it is a model that's trained on a lot of data and shouldn't be ignored. As usual there are no easy answers.
- SamoyedFurFluff 1y agoFrankly being able to point to specific behaviors that trigger vibes is something that comes easily to me as someone who, again, had to work through identifying trauma responses and reacting accordingly. It’s just a skill I think more people would benefit from picking up. I respond really poorly when I don’t feel understood, but I also have a tendency to be vague on details so it is normal for me to get misunderstood. Recognizing this is useful because I can use my gut frustration as an indicator, not that whoever I’m talking to is a moron or are intentionally bad faith misinterpreting me, but that I may be lacking clarity.
- andrewflnr 1y agoStrong agree that more people should have that skill. I've tried to get better at it but I'm probably still pretty meh. I think good emotional regulation stuff like this would ideally be taught starting in kindergarten along with "don't hit your classmates". Maybe in a better time.
- 1y ago
- mberning 1y ago[flagged]
- th0ma5 1y agoI think it should be said that abusive, toxic work environments can creep up until you're in one, and hearing things like people should just have a tough skin. What would be a more specific way of putting that?
- mberning 1y agoI don't know what point you are trying to make. One person's "abusive and toxic work environment" is another's "results driven organization". If you find yourself in a role that doesn't fit you, or you have serious doubts about, my best advice would be to leave. You are unlikely to meaningfully change the culture. In fact it will probably achieve the opposite of what you want, and people will dislike you for trying.
- th0ma5 1y agoJust for the record, no young person should see this mindset as correct. This is how patterns of abuse are perpetuated. I agree with the sentiments of just leave, but the rest of this is a machismo fantasy. The results driven teams you are describing are still abuse.
- whstl 1y agoThis is a false dichotomy. Places that use the phrase "results driven" as a rationalisation for toxicity are never about results. If a place is really "results driven", then people should be expected at EVERY level, to communicate like adults, to be matter-of-fact and to have clear expectations. All this is the opposite of a "toxic environment". Without exception, places that require employees to have "thick skins" are actually "ego driven" with results be damned, because they are led by bosses with the emotional maturity of a preteen. Results 100% take a backseat to ego here.
- analog8374 1y agoA spiral of thinking about a spiral of thinking.
- truelson 1y agoA key part of breaking cycles for me has been noticing when my default mode network (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Default_mode_network https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Default_mode_network) or DMN is being activated, being able to stop, do a series of 4-2-6 breaths to activate the parasympathetic nervous system and focus on what I'm doing in the present. The DMN is the little chatterbox "daemon" always talking in the background. Learning to consistently notice it and handle it is liberating. This is not easy, but I've found working on this every day is better than any form of traditional meditation or "mindfulness" work. It truly is work, like exercise, and the point is not how long you do it, but noticing more and more when my DMN engages and I can return to breathing and reactivating my parasympathetic nervous system. I can't stress enough what a change occurs after two months of focusing on this.
- truelson 1y agoIn addition, being able to see when dopamine is rising, feel it, label it, engage your parasympathetic nervous system and know that a dopamine spike is temporary, the craving for TV, news, sweets, social media, or other will pass... that is liberation. We live in a culture where everything is gunning for our attention, trying to engage a dopamine loop and "relieve" us from dealing with often important but difficult emotions just below the surface. We have to train ourselves to deal with this environment. It's not mindfulness training, it's how to operate our brains in the modern world.
- adiabatichottub 1y agoTo add to OP: It helps to pay attention to physical symptoms of stress as well. If you find yourself constantly tensing your jaw or your shoulders, take a moment to focus on relaxing your muscles and breathing. Overcoming negative automatic responses just takes consistent practice. To further add: being able to acknowledge an emotional response to a situation and then divert to objective thinking is a superpower. Sustained anger, sadness, or fear will quickly drain your energy and leave you unable to act with intent.
- oriel 1y agoTo add to this further, I've had great success following The Body Keeps Score; seeing it as a repository of past stress and trauma. As part of this, I've been able to locate and work through stress and trauma activations in my body, where normally they'd cluster around my head and never actually get resolved. Every time I go to work out, I pay attention to what areas of my body arent responding, are activating oddly; and I'll work to strengthen the foot-to-neck paths. It started with a back injury and has resulted in me finding I needed wide foot shoes and changing my entire stance, posture, complex movements, etc. Some times I find it odd that I don't have that daemon running around yelling, because hes now activated in my body, and all I have to do is stretch.
- gooodvibes 1y agoReminds me of the Buddhist term papañca - mental proliferation, thoughts bouncing off each other, going in different directions and building each other up - it's the opposite of the qualities of calm, collectedness and concentration that are cultivated in meditation.
- arcfour 1y agoThe second half of the article was pretty underwhelming. It felt like "don't be a judgemental jerk and assume the worst in people"—unclear how that would help me "spiral upwards"?
- fifticon 1y agoI got the sense in the latter half, that he/it was trying to promote a work or book; I think there is a link to some follow up material or book he wants to you buy or access.
- vijucat 1y agoWish I was taught things these in school. Psychology, CBT techniques, etc; I have always had a low EQ and learned a lot from basically messing things up, and from having a wife with super high EQ. Perception is reality for all practical purposes, despite the more mathematical wanting it to be not so, simply because the objective can literally not be perceived: each perceiver is subjective. Fixing this input layer would have saved me a lot of CPU churn, so to speak.
- matthewfcarlson 1y agoAgreed. I don’t really have an inner monologue, so articles like this do not resonate with me. I occasionally think these sorts of thoughts, like “hmmm- should I have perceived that interaction differently than I did in the moment”. But unlike my partner, there is no little voice that keeps following that thought. The thought comes, is considered, then moved onto something else. Honestly, having a negative inner voice sounds miserable. But I agree, by not really considering these sorts of things, I do think I wound up with a low EQ. Working on addressing it, but it takes time and experience
- joriskok1 1y agoI also have an inner monologue more like how you describe it. I always thought it was related to afantasia, but not sure.
- sublinear 1y agoYou shouldn't try to squash these thoughts, but don't believe you're going to predict much either. If you're early in your career, do everything you can to set yourself up for financial stability. If you're already there, work on your confidence and your skills. The biggest positive changes in my career came from doing what felt right and not backing down. If there was ever an industry in need of more courage and wisdom, it's software. Anyway, I also hate when articles try to popularize vocabulary that makes information less accessible. It's not "spiral", but "ruminate".
- mierz00 1y agoOne thing that has “cured” these thoughts for me is having a child. I don’t have time to ruminate like I did previously and I’ve also come to understand people better. It’s funny to see how often we all act like toddlers. It’s also made working in corporate easier, as it turns out telling a toddler no it’s surprisingly good practice for the real world.
- giveita 1y agoWait to you get a teenager. I measured my skin. A good 100 microns thicker.
- mierz00 1y agoThis made me laugh, I can’t wait.
- kaffekaka 1y agoYes, this is important. Learning that other people are not objectively rational or perfect in any way, but in fact emotional and many times just as misguided as my own shortsighted, anxiety-inducing thoughts. So many things about people (others _and_ myself) become reasonable when you look at them in this light.
- immibis 1y agoNote: Having a child in order to cure your depression or anxiety is a terrible idea.
- majorchord 1y agoDo you have any children?
- immibis 1y agoNo because having a child in order to cure your depression or anxiety is a terrible idea.
- black_13 1y ago[dead]
- JumpinJack_Cash 1y agoAll this pattern recognition hypersensitivity in interpersonal relationships stems from the millions of years in which we killed each other (at a much higher rate compared to now) . Somebody seems out of place in a group = killed or left starving or even sacrificed to the Gods in order to please them and get a good harvest. Now we are in a different time not every moment is a do or die moment, we also only have a certain amount of "do or die cognition" built within us, when we run out of it , that's bad because we might need it in the future. The problem is that we used to live very short and violent lives so the rational thing to do was to always be in "do or die" mode until you eventually ran out of luck and died around 30, or if you were lucky 35. And so it is the same happening right now. At this point I think that people are justified when they load up on alcohol, weed and XanaX (America is one nation under XanaX). As the calming chemicals are used to fight the "do or die" tendencies that harass us daily.
- recy 1y ago[dead]
- giveita 1y agoThere is another spiral I have experienced where I felt fine, dandy, crushing it but perceptions of me were spirialing! Luckily I have found a spiral going the other way now to get out of it.
- aeon_ai 1y agoNietzsche spoke of life at its fullest as an overflow, a strength so abundant it spills into creation, joy, generosity. Christ, too, framed love as something that overflows measure: forgiveness seventy times seven, care that extends to strangers and enemies. Even the smallest overflow — a kind word, a patient gesture — can ripple outward. One person softens, then another, and soon an entire current of interaction changes course. In this way, what begins as overflow in one heart can become a tide that lifts many. It is the way.
- patrickhogan1 1y agoThe impact of environment on mental spirals is underrated. I see it clearly in two pickup basketball groups I play with: one where people know your name, greet you warmly, and when you make a mistake they tell you how to improve in a way that makes you think "I can do better" not "I suck." The other is critical, lots of punching down and tense. The key insight: when you're surrounded by people who genuinely create an atmosphere of belonging and want you to succeed, you know their feedback comes from good intentions. This creates a virtuous cycle. You want to take their advice, and once you improve you naturally want to give the same back to others. Reminds me of this Simon Brodkin video perfectly capturing startup energy: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/q_FmhWARJ7Q https://www.youtube.com/shorts/q_FmhWARJ7Q
- lr4444lr 1y agoMuch as I criticize CBT, this is one of the few kinds of problems it seems suited for: there is so much data surrounding and so many inputs for a single negative event that it can be very easy to find a pattern breaker, re-frame, or alternate hypothesis without looking too hard. You just need to train it.
- madacol 1y agoThose sequences of thoughts that makes us spiral down are not fixed, it's cultural thoughts that we learned as we grew up whether from our family, friends or from TV shows, movies, games, etc. We see situations and we learn how other people handle them, we match the thoughts to similar contexts In LLM/agent lingo, those are prompts that we inject based on similarity search
- randallsquared 1y ago> It sure can seem like magic that... My first thought when seeing links to studies adjacent to pop psychology is "what are the chances this will replicate?". The replication crisis raised the skepticism bar considerably.
- vonnik 1y agoI highly recommend The Intelligence Trap by David Robson, especially the section about our emotional compass. He cites some great research by Damasio and Feldman-Barrett. There's also a great book called The Nature of the Beast that shares evidence of altered neurobiological states (emotions) in other species -- useful to understand ourselves when we're playing on tilt.