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Steam Censorship of Adult Games Shows How Payment Processors Wield Immense Power

79 points by diggan 1y ago

ChrisArchitect 1y ago
Is this any different than the previous takes and discussions 2 months ago? Against the censorship of adult content by payment processors https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44679406 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44679406 Payment processors' bar on Japanese adult content endangers democracy https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44627828 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44627828 Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44676559 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44676559
- HelloUsername 1y ago
  (you included a double link) and yes the censorship is slowly showing its effects: https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/valve-appear-to-be-blocking-mature-themed-games-from-steam-early-access-release https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/valve-appear-to-be-blocking... https://www.gamespot.com/articles/steam-is-no-longer-allowing-adult-games-in-early-access/1100-6534685/?ftag=CAD-01-10abi2f https://www.gamespot.com/articles/steam-is-no-longer-allowin... https://www.eurogamer.net/queer-developers-speak-out-as-adult-games-remain-in-limbo-following-payment-processor-showdown-at-steam-and-itchio https://www.eurogamer.net/queer-developers-speak-out-as-adul...
Molitor5901 1y ago
Unless it's de facto illegal, payment processors should be business agnostic. You can make arguments that it's their platform, their business, they can do whatever they want - but that goes for insurance companies and everyone else we want to act neutrally.
- runnr_az 1y ago
  Certain types of transactions come with different types of risk... one might reasonably assume that X-rated games fall into the "frequently fraudulent" category
  - simion314 1y ago
    >one might reasonably assume that X-rated games fall into the "frequently fraudulent" category There was no such evidence presented, all the evidence was that some christian extremists complained. Sure your wife might see that you have a payment to pornhub and might not like it but you will not get on your credit card report the name of the game you bought from Steam or GOG so this fake excuse does not work like it would have worked with adult sites subscriptions. But if there is evidence for Steam and GOG let me know, if somehow I missed the news and the chritian extemists were not the one that pressured VISA then also let me know.
    - 0cf8612b2e1e 1y ago
      Steam in particular is known to play hardball with chargebacks. If you issue a chargeback, rumor is that Steam will lock your entire account. Which seems incredibly unfair, but capitalism. If the theoretical angle is stolen credit cards, I am unmoved. The point of stolen credit cards is to launder for durable goods/services. The external value of a digital porn game is $0.
      - a-priori 1y ago
        This is generally true not just for Steam. By issuing a chargeback, you're burning that bridge and shouldn't be expect to do business with that vendor again.
        mrguyorama 1y ago
        That is not the case. A non-criminal chargeback maybe, but if you've had your card stolen and chargeback with a merchant for that, they don't hold that against you. Though, it maybe be more annoying to get your purchase approved because the automated risk system will flag it. We sell product to people with prior chargebacks with us every single day
- whateveracct 1y ago
  If that's the case, then you have to 1) reduce requirements on the payment processors to do due diligence and/or 2) push handling of risks associated with payments elsewhere.
  - dotnet00 1y ago
    As others have mentioned, what evidence of risk is there between a normal game purchased on Steam, versus an adult game, purchased on Steam? Steam has a specific return policy that it applies everywhere, the games don't show up on card statements, and Steam will lock your entire account for charging back. If there's a secret epidemic of people making new accounts specifically to buy and chargeback on adult games, the solution is for the processor to pressure Steam to take measures to reduce fradulent chargebacks (e.g. through minimum account age requirements for adult games), not to censor the platform.
    - whateveracct 1y ago
      You're being too first principles here, for one. These giant operations have coarse rules because they are giant. Coming up with a single counterexample is not compelling. Coarse rules are inherently going to have false positives. That's a feature not a bug - regulated entities can't risk racking up offenses due to their automations or policies being too lax. Sooo..you did not "gotchya" anything with your comment. Secondly, I was talking about categorically changing how we treat MC/Visa. If you are going to change their class of operation, something has to give. And it gets complicated.
- seanmcdirmid 1y ago
  The problem is that the payment processor is liable for money laundering and other suspicious transactions. They just can’t say that the customer’s business was not their business, there is no safe harbor for payment processors.
  - Molitor5901 1y ago
    I agree, but the money laundering would be a de facto criminal act. It would be a mistake, however, to give payment processors a version of Sec. 230. For any financial institution that could be calamitous. Maybe there should be a very minimal line of protection, much like we do with a lot of cybersecurity for banks - they self certify they are doing their best. It still goes back to the original concern: If a payment processor can block someone for a political view, or a business for a social view, what's not stopping them from blocking someone merely over a disagreement about speech - for anyone.
spicyusername 1y ago
Hot take, but Steam, a platform used by millions of children, should not have adult games.
- Glant 1y ago
  Hot take, but parents should, y'know, parent. Steam offers parental controls which can disable the store entirely, and have a whitelist for which games can be played along with other features.
  - spicyusername 1y ago
    Hot take, but parents should, y'know, parent I can tell you're not a parent, because if you were, you would know that basically none of the digital solutions provided by tech companies to facilitate gating adult material from children actually work or are in any way thoughtfully designed. Every one of these "just shunt the responsibility from the giant corporation with infinite resources to the parents who are already stretched thin" is another link in a long, long chain that is the woes of modern parenting and really in the woes of modern life, in general. Historically we have typically gated adult content from children via opt-in systems, not opt-out systems, like you're describing - e.g. Adults opt-in to sensitive content, not children opt-out. There is a reason adult stores are separate from Walmarts and that 21+ bars are separate from family-restaurants. Also these games are absolute garbage, so I'm not sure why everyone is jumping on this issue like we're losing something of significant cultural value... Why is low-quality XXX-slop the line in the sand we're deciding to rally around... This is not a slippery slope to fascism, or whatever make-believe story we're peddling about this situation, its somebody somewhere doing the right thing, for once, and slowing our seemingly inevitable decline into Biff's Casino Future the teensiest bit.
    - stirfish 1y ago
      As a parent, I don't want my child reading your comment. Also, your comment is absolute trash, so deleting it wouldn't be a loss of anything of cultural significance. No, I will not talk to my son about it. Hacker News has unlimited resources, so they should do it for me. I'm already stretched too thin - I have to get to Walmart to buy more wine and ammunition before it closes.
Bratmon 1y ago
If the payment processors really cared about children, they would be banning companies that sell guns, not video games with boobs in them.
- spicyusername 1y ago
  This is classic "whataboutism". "What about guns or violence?" Maybe they will next, maybe not. What does that have to do with them taking this first step? We have to evaluate the merit of this action, on its own. Personally, I think that opening Steam's "New and Upcoming" and seeing nothing but low-quality porn games is bad. Bad for steam, bad for gamers, and bad for children.
  - HankStallone 1y ago
    GOG is also starting to need a "no porn" filter, though I haven't used Steam, so I don't know how they compare on that.
  - philipkglass 1y ago
    Personally, I think that opening Steam's "New and Upcoming" and seeing nothing but low-quality porn games is bad. Is this something that happens when you have a registered account? I don't have a Steam account. I opened https://store.steampowered.com/explore/upcoming/ https://store.steampowered.com/explore/upcoming/ in a private browser window and I see only one one game out of 20 tagged with "Nudity" / "Sexual content".
  - Bratmon 1y ago
    Payment processors demonstrated that they can, with a handful of keystrokes, destroy any industry they dislike. I don't think it's "whataboutism" to ask why they don't do something that helps society with that power instead of using it to censor art they find personally distasteful.
    - spicyusername 1y ago
      Did they though...? I don't see any destroyed industries. Payment can be processed many ways, games can be bought from multiple store fronts, and there are still pornographic games on steam... so...
proactivesvcs 1y ago
If you're in the UK there is a parliament.uk petition to "Ban payment processors stopping services based on objections to legal content": https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/734441 https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/734441
- hollerith 1y ago
  Instead of forcing payment processors to do business with companies against their will, I'd prefer for the government to become a payment processor that does not reject the customers this bill is trying to protect.
  - amy214 1y ago
    Having a government payment processor I'm sure would be quite a nightmare as well. Imagine your credit card is the DMV. The reason these credit card companies wield so much power is the modern duopolistic system. "Monopolies are ILLEGAL" they said. Thusly, an array of duopolistic megacorps essentially acting as a monopoly. Something something game theory. Visa and mastercard. Coke and Pepsi. iPhone and Android. Windows and MacOS. Google search and google search. NASDAQ and NYSE. The answer is to have 10+ actually competing, financially healthy payment processors. At some point the cabal-like duopolistic behavior breaks down.

79 points by diggan 1y ago

Is this any different than the previous takes and discussions 2 months ago? Against the censorship of adult content by payment processors https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44679406 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44679406 Payment processors' bar on Japanese adult content endangers democracy https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44627828 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44627828 Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44676559 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44676559

HelloUsername 1y ago
(you included a double link) and yes the censorship is slowly showing its effects: https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/valve-appear-to-be-blocking-mature-themed-games-from-steam-early-access-release https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/valve-appear-to-be-blocking... https://www.gamespot.com/articles/steam-is-no-longer-allowing-adult-games-in-early-access/1100-6534685/?ftag=CAD-01-10abi2f https://www.gamespot.com/articles/steam-is-no-longer-allowin... https://www.eurogamer.net/queer-developers-speak-out-as-adult-games-remain-in-limbo-following-payment-processor-showdown-at-steam-and-itchio https://www.eurogamer.net/queer-developers-speak-out-as-adul...

Molitor5901 1y ago

Unless it's de facto illegal, payment processors should be business agnostic. You can make arguments that it's their platform, their business, they can do whatever they want - but that goes for insurance companies and everyone else we want to act neutrally.

runnr_az 1y ago
Certain types of transactions come with different types of risk... one might reasonably assume that X-rated games fall into the "frequently fraudulent" category
- simion314 1y ago
  >one might reasonably assume that X-rated games fall into the "frequently fraudulent" category There was no such evidence presented, all the evidence was that some christian extremists complained. Sure your wife might see that you have a payment to pornhub and might not like it but you will not get on your credit card report the name of the game you bought from Steam or GOG so this fake excuse does not work like it would have worked with adult sites subscriptions. But if there is evidence for Steam and GOG let me know, if somehow I missed the news and the chritian extemists were not the one that pressured VISA then also let me know.
  - 0cf8612b2e1e 1y ago
    Steam in particular is known to play hardball with chargebacks. If you issue a chargeback, rumor is that Steam will lock your entire account. Which seems incredibly unfair, but capitalism. If the theoretical angle is stolen credit cards, I am unmoved. The point of stolen credit cards is to launder for durable goods/services. The external value of a digital porn game is $0.
    - a-priori 1y ago
      This is generally true not just for Steam. By issuing a chargeback, you're burning that bridge and shouldn't be expect to do business with that vendor again.
      - mrguyorama 1y ago
        That is not the case. A non-criminal chargeback maybe, but if you've had your card stolen and chargeback with a merchant for that, they don't hold that against you. Though, it maybe be more annoying to get your purchase approved because the automated risk system will flag it. We sell product to people with prior chargebacks with us every single day
whateveracct 1y ago
If that's the case, then you have to 1) reduce requirements on the payment processors to do due diligence and/or 2) push handling of risks associated with payments elsewhere.
- dotnet00 1y ago
  As others have mentioned, what evidence of risk is there between a normal game purchased on Steam, versus an adult game, purchased on Steam? Steam has a specific return policy that it applies everywhere, the games don't show up on card statements, and Steam will lock your entire account for charging back. If there's a secret epidemic of people making new accounts specifically to buy and chargeback on adult games, the solution is for the processor to pressure Steam to take measures to reduce fradulent chargebacks (e.g. through minimum account age requirements for adult games), not to censor the platform.
  - whateveracct 1y ago
    You're being too first principles here, for one. These giant operations have coarse rules because they are giant. Coming up with a single counterexample is not compelling. Coarse rules are inherently going to have false positives. That's a feature not a bug - regulated entities can't risk racking up offenses due to their automations or policies being too lax. Sooo..you did not "gotchya" anything with your comment. Secondly, I was talking about categorically changing how we treat MC/Visa. If you are going to change their class of operation, something has to give. And it gets complicated.
seanmcdirmid 1y ago
The problem is that the payment processor is liable for money laundering and other suspicious transactions. They just can’t say that the customer’s business was not their business, there is no safe harbor for payment processors.
- Molitor5901 1y ago
  I agree, but the money laundering would be a de facto criminal act. It would be a mistake, however, to give payment processors a version of Sec. 230. For any financial institution that could be calamitous. Maybe there should be a very minimal line of protection, much like we do with a lot of cybersecurity for banks - they self certify they are doing their best. It still goes back to the original concern: If a payment processor can block someone for a political view, or a business for a social view, what's not stopping them from blocking someone merely over a disagreement about speech - for anyone.

spicyusername 1y ago

Hot take, but Steam, a platform used by millions of children, should not have adult games.

Glant 1y ago
Hot take, but parents should, y'know, parent. Steam offers parental controls which can disable the store entirely, and have a whitelist for which games can be played along with other features.
- spicyusername 1y ago
  Hot take, but parents should, y'know, parent I can tell you're not a parent, because if you were, you would know that basically none of the digital solutions provided by tech companies to facilitate gating adult material from children actually work or are in any way thoughtfully designed. Every one of these "just shunt the responsibility from the giant corporation with infinite resources to the parents who are already stretched thin" is another link in a long, long chain that is the woes of modern parenting and really in the woes of modern life, in general. Historically we have typically gated adult content from children via opt-in systems, not opt-out systems, like you're describing - e.g. Adults opt-in to sensitive content, not children opt-out. There is a reason adult stores are separate from Walmarts and that 21+ bars are separate from family-restaurants. Also these games are absolute garbage, so I'm not sure why everyone is jumping on this issue like we're losing something of significant cultural value... Why is low-quality XXX-slop the line in the sand we're deciding to rally around... This is not a slippery slope to fascism, or whatever make-believe story we're peddling about this situation, its somebody somewhere doing the right thing, for once, and slowing our seemingly inevitable decline into Biff's Casino Future the teensiest bit.
  - stirfish 1y ago
    As a parent, I don't want my child reading your comment. Also, your comment is absolute trash, so deleting it wouldn't be a loss of anything of cultural significance. No, I will not talk to my son about it. Hacker News has unlimited resources, so they should do it for me. I'm already stretched too thin - I have to get to Walmart to buy more wine and ammunition before it closes.

Bratmon 1y ago

If the payment processors really cared about children, they would be banning companies that sell guns, not video games with boobs in them.

spicyusername 1y ago
This is classic "whataboutism". "What about guns or violence?" Maybe they will next, maybe not. What does that have to do with them taking this first step? We have to evaluate the merit of this action, on its own. Personally, I think that opening Steam's "New and Upcoming" and seeing nothing but low-quality porn games is bad. Bad for steam, bad for gamers, and bad for children.
- HankStallone 1y ago
  GOG is also starting to need a "no porn" filter, though I haven't used Steam, so I don't know how they compare on that.
- philipkglass 1y ago
  Personally, I think that opening Steam's "New and Upcoming" and seeing nothing but low-quality porn games is bad. Is this something that happens when you have a registered account? I don't have a Steam account. I opened https://store.steampowered.com/explore/upcoming/ https://store.steampowered.com/explore/upcoming/ in a private browser window and I see only one one game out of 20 tagged with "Nudity" / "Sexual content".
- Bratmon 1y ago
  Payment processors demonstrated that they can, with a handful of keystrokes, destroy any industry they dislike. I don't think it's "whataboutism" to ask why they don't do something that helps society with that power instead of using it to censor art they find personally distasteful.
  - spicyusername 1y ago
    Did they though...? I don't see any destroyed industries. Payment can be processed many ways, games can be bought from multiple store fronts, and there are still pornographic games on steam... so...

proactivesvcs 1y ago

If you're in the UK there is a parliament.uk petition to "Ban payment processors stopping services based on objections to legal content": https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/734441 https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/734441

hollerith 1y ago
Instead of forcing payment processors to do business with companies against their will, I'd prefer for the government to become a payment processor that does not reject the customers this bill is trying to protect.
- amy214 1y ago
  Having a government payment processor I'm sure would be quite a nightmare as well. Imagine your credit card is the DMV. The reason these credit card companies wield so much power is the modern duopolistic system. "Monopolies are ILLEGAL" they said. Thusly, an array of duopolistic megacorps essentially acting as a monopoly. Something something game theory. Visa and mastercard. Coke and Pepsi. iPhone and Android. Windows and MacOS. Google search and google search. NASDAQ and NYSE. The answer is to have 10+ actually competing, financially healthy payment processors. At some point the cabal-like duopolistic behavior breaks down.