7 ms·

The challenge of maintaining curl

192 points by signa11 1y ago

kamaal 1y ago
>>Companies tend to assume that somebody else is paying for the development of open-source software, so they do not have to contribute. I think if you are a billion dollar company using these tools, sponsoring maintenance isn't a lot to ask. Curiously enough this came up even during the days of Perl. I don't think Perl got its due, especially given the fact that even until most recently almost everything of importance was done with Perl. Heck internet was made possible because of Perl.
- bluGill 1y ago
  I've often asked how my company could support them. Most I ask don't understand the question. Those that do only point out that I can contribute code changes - which I have but rarely as we pick good projects that meet our needs: there rarely are bugs or features we would care about enough to not do our regular work. what would be nice is a non profit that would take money and distribute it to the projects we use - likely with some legal checking that they are legal (whatever that means). FSF is the only one I know of that does generic development and they have ideas that companies generally oppose and so are out
  - JoshTriplett 1y ago
    Many projects have foundations or fiscal sponsors you can work with. If you care about Python, you could support the Python Foundation, and/or hire or sponsor some Python developers. If you care about Rust, support the Rust Foundation, and/or hire or sponsor some Rust developers. If you care about Reproducible Builds, or QEMU, or Git, or Inkscape, or the future of FOSS licensing, or various other projects (https://sfconservancy.org/projects/current/ https://sfconservancy.org/projects/current/), support Software Freedom Conservancy. If you care about a smaller project, and they don't have a means of sponsorship, you could encourage them to accept sponsorship via some means, or join some fiscal sponsor umbrella like Conservancy.
    - sinner 1y ago
      Another such umbrella organization is Software in the Public Interest (SPI). Some of the more notable projects they sponsor include Arch Linux, Debian, FFmpeg, LibreOffice, OpenSSL, OpenZFS, PostgreSQL, and systemd. Homepage: https://www.spi-inc.org/ https://www.spi-inc.org/
  - simonw 1y ago
    A lot of open source maintainers are bad at asking for money, and most companies find it very hard to give money away without some kind of formal arrangement in place. Here's a way you can work around that, if you are someone who works for a company with money: Contact the maintainers of software you use and invite them to speak to your engineering team via Zoom in exchange for a speaking fee. Your company knows how to pay consultants. It likely also has an existing training budget you can tap into. You're not asking the maintainer to give a talk - those take time to prepare and require experience with public speaking. Instead, set it up as a Q&A or a fireside chat. Select someone from your own team who is good at facilitating / asking questions. Aim for an hour of time. Pay four figures. Then do the same thing once a month or so for other projects you depend on. I really like the idea of normalizing companies reaching out to maintainers and offering them a relatively easy hour long remote consultation in exchange for a generous payment. I think this may be a discreet way to help funnel money into the pockets of people who's work a company depends on.
    - bruce511 1y ago
      This is very creative, and I suspect would work. It does have the side effect of wasting the time of 1+n engineers for that hour. I might be able to rustle up a few in month 1, but I'm not going to ba able to do it monthly. Frankly, as long as the builder has a "support contract" option, that should be sufficient. I will add that understanding how business works is a huge help to them to get you paid. I advocated for supporting a project (they have a "sponsored by" marketing on their web page, so we could take it out the marketing budget.) But they could only be paid via PayPal (which unfortunately we can't do) do the deal fell through. It didn't help that the home page in question contained lot of sarcasm, and was antagonistic in tone, likely (I suspect) because of the nonsense the maintainer had to wade through. Ultimately no money got sent. I'm happy to support OSS, but I can only spend so much social capital on doing so. My advice to maintainers, if you want sponsorship, put some effort into making that channel professional. It really helps.
  - keithnz 1y ago
    I'd like if it was an option on github to easily have a billing option that would have an automatic donation to the open source in the active repos.
  - tleb_ 1y ago
    The Linux Foundation (LF) is sort of this. A non-profit aimed at corporate members to sponsor work on many open-source projects (~900).
- JoshTriplett 1y ago
  > I think if you are a billion dollar company using these tools, sponsoring maintenance isn't a lot to ask. It isn't a lot to ask, but it's challenging to 1) find who to ask, and 2) get them to care about the long-term view in a way that doesn't fit into short-term thinking and budgeting.
- matsemann 1y ago
  Being the one car maker on a slide being called out to have supported curl would be so cheap and get them lots of attention.
  - akerl_ 1y ago
    Would it? How many car buyers are motivated by which company donates to an open source project?
    - lionkor 1y ago
      Me -- the crowd who buys old shitboxes usually.
umpalumpaaa 1y ago
The Sovereign Tech Agency (German federal government) donated about 200k€ to the project. Not a brand though. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_Tech_Agency https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_Tech_Agency
positron26 1y ago
Every day, if I read HN, I find reasons to just go back to working on PrizeForge
- signa11 1y ago
  don't mind if you do guv, don't mind at all.
angst 1y ago
> There is an increasing crowd of people who ask a large language model to "find a problem in curl, make it sound terrible", then send the result, which is never correct, to the project, thinking that they are somehow helping. Our worst nightmares are becoming true indeed..
- blahgeek 1y ago
  The worst nightmare would be the maintainers in turn use large language model to review or apply these patches
  - signa11 1y ago
    and then have another one duke it out with the first one to reject the patch. that would be a nice llm-vs-llm, prompt-fight-prompt :o)
  - szszrk 1y ago
    I already have some processes at work that are reviewed by AI only. Which means we are advised to use another AI to fill out the data quicker. It's nothing critical, but still both scary and hilarious at the same time. Shit on the input, shit on the output - nothing new, just fancier tools. Asimov's vision of history so tangled and noisy that no one really knows what is truth and what is a legend is happening in front of our own eyes. It didn't need millennia, just a few years of AI companies abusing our knowledge that was available for anyone for free.
  - the_biot 1y ago
    Not to one-up you, but my worst nightmare is an open source project where all the maintainers are LLM copy-pasters, with little clue to be had otherwise. And it's already happened, of course. A project I saw mentioned here on HN a while back seemed interesting, and it was exactly that kind of disaster. They started off as a fork of another project, so had a working codebase. But the project lead is a grade-A asshole who gets off on being grumpy to people, and considers any ideas not his to be ridiculous. Their kernel guy is an actual moron; his output is either (clearly) LLM output or just idiocies. Even the side contributors are 100% chatbot pasters.
dcsommer 1y ago
It would be cool to build a "library clout" measure for all open source software. First collect for all deployed software systems measures of usage per platform and along other interesting dimensions like how that system relates to others (is it a common dependency or platform for other deployed software). Use this to generate "clout" at a deployed software unit level. Then detect all open source libraries compiled in it by binary signature matching or through the software's own build system if it is open. Then a library's "clout" is built from the clout of the projects that use it. This clout score might be used to guide investments in a non-profit for funding critical OSS. Data collection would be challenging though, as would callibrating need. Basically make a rigorous score to track some of the intuition from https://xkcd.com/2347/ https://xkcd.com/2347/
- phi-go 1y ago
  There is one, though, focused on security: https://openssf.org/projects/criticality-score/ https://openssf.org/projects/criticality-score/
- soulcutter 1y ago
  Sounds like tidelift
nurettin 1y ago
Just have a policy of firing these "security researchers" whenever they submit AI generated BS to curl.
- dmurray 1y ago
  Fire them from where? Their undergraduate studies at IIT Hyderabad? Daniel doesn't have the authority to do that.
  - nurettin 1y ago
    There are indeed missing steps and I won't claim to reinvent society in one hn thread, /but/ I am just saying that there needs to be real life consequences for being a shitty student. Is that email coming from EDU? Submit a complaint to the university. Just make an email template and fight back. It takes a minute to find the student affairs or dean's email. Surely there will be one person in the entire institution who cares.
molticrystal 1y ago
The talk that was referred to in the the article can be found here, just 13 minutes: Keynote: Giants, Standing on the Shoulders Of - Daniel Stenberg, Founder of the Curl Project https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEBBPj7pIKo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEBBPj7pIKo While the article does a great job, the video's graphs and photos really bring a lot more depth.
- runningmike 1y ago
  The full story https://archive.fosdem.org/2024/schedule/event/fosdem-2024-1931-you-too-could-have-made-curl-/ https://archive.fosdem.org/2024/schedule/event/fosdem-2024-1...
rhdunn 1y ago
You can use LLMs as part of the process of identifying bugs, developing features, etc. but you must verify the results. Accepting what the LLM says without testing, checking, and verifying the output is lazy and likely to produce errors, or make the code harder to maintain, e.g. if what the LLM produces isn't in line with the project's development/formatting standards or changes other parts of the code.
- tolmasky 1y ago
  Generally speaking, the second you realize a technology/process/anything has a hard requirement that individuals independently exercise responsibility or self-control, with no obvious immediate gain for themselves, it is almost certain that said technology/process/anything is unsalvageable in its current form. This is in the general case. But with LLMs, the entire selling point is specifically offloading "reasoning" to them. That is quite literally what they are selling you. So with LLMs, you can swap out "almost certain" in the above rule to "absolutely certain without a shadow of a doubt". This isn't even a hypothetical as we have experimental evidence that LLMs cause people to think/reason less. So you are at best already starting at a deficit. But more importantly, this makes the entire premise of using LLMs make no sense (at least from a marketing perspective). What good is a thinking machine if I need to verify it? Especially when you are telling me that it will be a "super reasoning" machine soon. Do I need a human "super verifier" to match? In fact, that's not even a tomorrow problem, that is a today problem: LLMs are quite literally advertised to me as a "PhD in my pocket". I don't have a PhD. Most people would find the idea of me "verifying the work of human PhDs" to be quite silly, so how does it make any sense that I am in any way qualified to verify my robo-PhD? I pay for it precisely because it knows more than I do! Do I now need to hire a human PhD to verify my robo-PhD?" Short of that, is it the case that only human PhDs are qualified to use robo-PhDs? In other words, should LLms exclusively be used for things the operator already knows how to do? That seems weird. It's like a Magic 8 Ball that only answers questions you already know the answer to. Hilariously, you could even find someone reaching the conclusion of "well, sure, a curl expert should verify the patch I am submitting to curl. That's what submitting the patch accomplishes! The experts who work on curl will verify it! Who better to do it than them?". And now we've come full circle! To be clear, each of these questions has plenty of counter-points/workarounds/etc. The point is not to present some philosophical gotcha argument against LLM use. The point rather is to demonstrate the fundamental mismatch between the value-proposition of LLMs and their theoretical "correct use", and thus demonstrate why it is astronomically unlikely for them to ever be used correctly.
kibwen 1y ago
Step 1: Set up a GoFundMe Step 2: Announce that, until the aforementioned GoFundMe reaches $10 million, all new commits to curl will be licensed under the AGPL. Step 3: Profit
- ozgrakkurt 1y ago
  Step 3: get forked and lose?
  - renmillar 1y ago
    Step 4: it's someone else's problem, win
    - saghm 1y ago
      If they didn't want to keep maintaining it, they could just skip to step 4 and just not maintain it in the first place. The problem is that they do want to, and it's not like they haven't done it successfully for years now . Between "put up with whatever bullshit comes your way" and "give up entirely" is a wide spectrum of "try to find ways to reduce the bullshit to get to focus on the important parts", and most of the ways probably don't boil down to handful of pithy steps that could fit in an (original size) tweet.
      - renmillar 1y ago
        If someone competent wanted to take over my important work projects (deployment systems, core code maintenance, etc.), I'd gladly hand them over. I could orphan them right now claiming I need time for immediate tasks, but I don't want to dump unmaintained code on my team. I'd guess open source maintainers feel even more responsible since they see their work as community service. Maybe dropping the project is what's needed to trigger a well-funded fork or get corporate attention, similar to how Heartbleed affected OpenSSL.
LeonM 1y ago
From my experience, most businesses (or at least the developers working for them) actually would like to donate or pay for support on the OSS projects they rely on. The problem, at least from my experience, is that it is hard to do so due to legislation, compliance, etc. Example: I once convinced my employer to donate to some open source projects we relied on. They did, then few months later they got slapped on the wrist by the authorities for not being able to prove where these overseas payments were going to, and that these payments weren't used for funding terrorist activities. Similarly, I used to contribute to an OSS project, we did get asked by some corps to do paid work like bug fixes or features. The problem was that they required invoices in order for them to be allowed to pay us, so we needed to register as a company, get a tax number, etc. I was a freelancer at the time, so I offered to use my business registration to be able to invoice, then split the profit amongst the contributors. Then the very first paying 'customer' immediately hit us with a 20-page vendor assessment form asking about my SOC2 or ISO27001 certifications, data security policies, background checks of my 'employees' etc. Then I got confronted by my accountant that distributing the payment amongst other people would be seen as disguised wages and could get me into serious legal problems. Granted, this was some years ago, things have gotten better now with initiatives as Github Sponsors, KoFi and Patreon. But at the same time legislation has gotten more restrictive, doing business with large corps is difficult, expensive and very time consuming. It's not worth it for most OSS maintainers, and similarly it isn't worth the legal headache for the large corps to make these kind of donations.
- spiffytech 1y ago
  patio11 has said something similar: the tax authorities were inclined to read "donation" as "owner's personal spending", and expected accounting and taxes to be handled accordingly. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10863978 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10863978
- woooooo 1y ago
  Maybe we need to normalize bullshit consulting gigs then? There's plenty of those around anyways. "Optimized 100k HTTP requests per day".
  - 1y ago
nwellnhof 1y ago
If he's unhappy, why doesn't he step down? That's what I did as libxslt maintainer and what I'm about to do as maintainer of libxml2.
- aembleton 1y ago
  He's not unhappy
- saghm 1y ago
  There are degrees of unhappiness. There's no reason to assume a binary of loving everything about work or hating it so much that they'd be happier without it. To be clear, this isn't intended as a criticism of your choices to step down from maintaining various projects; my point is that these choices are quite personal, and it's not always going to be obvious how to balance the tradeoffs. It's entirely possible that they are burnt out to the point that they might be happier in the long run if they did step down now, but it's also possible that they might be even more unhappy giving up something that they care a lot about and are willing to tolerate the less fun parts. I suspect you could provide a lot of valuable insight on these sorts of decisions given you experience, but even from having to make similar decisions for things with a tiny fraction of the exposure of the projects you've maintained, it's clear to me that there would need to be quite a lot more nuance in analyzing a situation like this, especially from the outside.
- the_biot 1y ago
  I think he's just pointing out current problems, as he's done many times. He likes to give talks and publicity to his project, as its maintainer, and that includes this sort of "what's going on with the project" talks. I don't think he's unhappy. Frankly I think he's doing the right thing, and I say that as the founder of a project where I didn't do that sort of thing, but now realize I should have. This is what gets you contributors/donations/publicity.
catherinebrigg 1y ago
[flagged]
salterdavid032 1y ago
[dead]

192 points by signa11 1y ago

>>Companies tend to assume that somebody else is paying for the development of open-source software, so they do not have to contribute. I think if you are a billion dollar company using these tools, sponsoring maintenance isn't a lot to ask. Curiously enough this came up even during the days of Perl. I don't think Perl got its due, especially given the fact that even until most recently almost everything of importance was done with Perl. Heck internet was made possible because of Perl.

bluGill 1y ago
I've often asked how my company could support them. Most I ask don't understand the question. Those that do only point out that I can contribute code changes - which I have but rarely as we pick good projects that meet our needs: there rarely are bugs or features we would care about enough to not do our regular work. what would be nice is a non profit that would take money and distribute it to the projects we use - likely with some legal checking that they are legal (whatever that means). FSF is the only one I know of that does generic development and they have ideas that companies generally oppose and so are out
- JoshTriplett 1y ago
  Many projects have foundations or fiscal sponsors you can work with. If you care about Python, you could support the Python Foundation, and/or hire or sponsor some Python developers. If you care about Rust, support the Rust Foundation, and/or hire or sponsor some Rust developers. If you care about Reproducible Builds, or QEMU, or Git, or Inkscape, or the future of FOSS licensing, or various other projects (https://sfconservancy.org/projects/current/ https://sfconservancy.org/projects/current/), support Software Freedom Conservancy. If you care about a smaller project, and they don't have a means of sponsorship, you could encourage them to accept sponsorship via some means, or join some fiscal sponsor umbrella like Conservancy.
  - sinner 1y ago
    Another such umbrella organization is Software in the Public Interest (SPI). Some of the more notable projects they sponsor include Arch Linux, Debian, FFmpeg, LibreOffice, OpenSSL, OpenZFS, PostgreSQL, and systemd. Homepage: https://www.spi-inc.org/ https://www.spi-inc.org/
- simonw 1y ago
  A lot of open source maintainers are bad at asking for money, and most companies find it very hard to give money away without some kind of formal arrangement in place. Here's a way you can work around that, if you are someone who works for a company with money: Contact the maintainers of software you use and invite them to speak to your engineering team via Zoom in exchange for a speaking fee. Your company knows how to pay consultants. It likely also has an existing training budget you can tap into. You're not asking the maintainer to give a talk - those take time to prepare and require experience with public speaking. Instead, set it up as a Q&A or a fireside chat. Select someone from your own team who is good at facilitating / asking questions. Aim for an hour of time. Pay four figures. Then do the same thing once a month or so for other projects you depend on. I really like the idea of normalizing companies reaching out to maintainers and offering them a relatively easy hour long remote consultation in exchange for a generous payment. I think this may be a discreet way to help funnel money into the pockets of people who's work a company depends on.
  - bruce511 1y ago
    This is very creative, and I suspect would work. It does have the side effect of wasting the time of 1+n engineers for that hour. I might be able to rustle up a few in month 1, but I'm not going to ba able to do it monthly. Frankly, as long as the builder has a "support contract" option, that should be sufficient. I will add that understanding how business works is a huge help to them to get you paid. I advocated for supporting a project (they have a "sponsored by" marketing on their web page, so we could take it out the marketing budget.) But they could only be paid via PayPal (which unfortunately we can't do) do the deal fell through. It didn't help that the home page in question contained lot of sarcasm, and was antagonistic in tone, likely (I suspect) because of the nonsense the maintainer had to wade through. Ultimately no money got sent. I'm happy to support OSS, but I can only spend so much social capital on doing so. My advice to maintainers, if you want sponsorship, put some effort into making that channel professional. It really helps.
- keithnz 1y ago
  I'd like if it was an option on github to easily have a billing option that would have an automatic donation to the open source in the active repos.
- tleb_ 1y ago
  The Linux Foundation (LF) is sort of this. A non-profit aimed at corporate members to sponsor work on many open-source projects (~900).
JoshTriplett 1y ago
> I think if you are a billion dollar company using these tools, sponsoring maintenance isn't a lot to ask. It isn't a lot to ask, but it's challenging to 1) find who to ask, and 2) get them to care about the long-term view in a way that doesn't fit into short-term thinking and budgeting.
matsemann 1y ago
Being the one car maker on a slide being called out to have supported curl would be so cheap and get them lots of attention.
- akerl_ 1y ago
  Would it? How many car buyers are motivated by which company donates to an open source project?
  - lionkor 1y ago
    Me -- the crowd who buys old shitboxes usually.

umpalumpaaa 1y ago

The Sovereign Tech Agency (German federal government) donated about 200k€ to the project. Not a brand though. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_Tech_Agency https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_Tech_Agency

positron26 1y ago

Every day, if I read HN, I find reasons to just go back to working on PrizeForge

signa11 1y ago
don't mind if you do guv, don't mind at all.

angst 1y ago

> There is an increasing crowd of people who ask a large language model to "find a problem in curl, make it sound terrible", then send the result, which is never correct, to the project, thinking that they are somehow helping. Our worst nightmares are becoming true indeed..

blahgeek 1y ago
The worst nightmare would be the maintainers in turn use large language model to review or apply these patches
- signa11 1y ago
  and then have another one duke it out with the first one to reject the patch. that would be a nice llm-vs-llm, prompt-fight-prompt :o)
- szszrk 1y ago
  I already have some processes at work that are reviewed by AI only. Which means we are advised to use another AI to fill out the data quicker. It's nothing critical, but still both scary and hilarious at the same time. Shit on the input, shit on the output - nothing new, just fancier tools. Asimov's vision of history so tangled and noisy that no one really knows what is truth and what is a legend is happening in front of our own eyes. It didn't need millennia, just a few years of AI companies abusing our knowledge that was available for anyone for free.
- the_biot 1y ago
  Not to one-up you, but my worst nightmare is an open source project where all the maintainers are LLM copy-pasters, with little clue to be had otherwise. And it's already happened, of course. A project I saw mentioned here on HN a while back seemed interesting, and it was exactly that kind of disaster. They started off as a fork of another project, so had a working codebase. But the project lead is a grade-A asshole who gets off on being grumpy to people, and considers any ideas not his to be ridiculous. Their kernel guy is an actual moron; his output is either (clearly) LLM output or just idiocies. Even the side contributors are 100% chatbot pasters.

dcsommer 1y ago

It would be cool to build a "library clout" measure for all open source software. First collect for all deployed software systems measures of usage per platform and along other interesting dimensions like how that system relates to others (is it a common dependency or platform for other deployed software). Use this to generate "clout" at a deployed software unit level. Then detect all open source libraries compiled in it by binary signature matching or through the software's own build system if it is open. Then a library's "clout" is built from the clout of the projects that use it. This clout score might be used to guide investments in a non-profit for funding critical OSS. Data collection would be challenging though, as would callibrating need. Basically make a rigorous score to track some of the intuition from https://xkcd.com/2347/ https://xkcd.com/2347/

phi-go 1y ago
There is one, though, focused on security: https://openssf.org/projects/criticality-score/ https://openssf.org/projects/criticality-score/
soulcutter 1y ago
Sounds like tidelift

nurettin 1y ago

Just have a policy of firing these "security researchers" whenever they submit AI generated BS to curl.

dmurray 1y ago
Fire them from where? Their undergraduate studies at IIT Hyderabad? Daniel doesn't have the authority to do that.
- nurettin 1y ago
  There are indeed missing steps and I won't claim to reinvent society in one hn thread, /but/ I am just saying that there needs to be real life consequences for being a shitty student. Is that email coming from EDU? Submit a complaint to the university. Just make an email template and fight back. It takes a minute to find the student affairs or dean's email. Surely there will be one person in the entire institution who cares.

molticrystal 1y ago

The talk that was referred to in the the article can be found here, just 13 minutes: Keynote: Giants, Standing on the Shoulders Of - Daniel Stenberg, Founder of the Curl Project https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEBBPj7pIKo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEBBPj7pIKo While the article does a great job, the video's graphs and photos really bring a lot more depth.

runningmike 1y ago
The full story https://archive.fosdem.org/2024/schedule/event/fosdem-2024-1931-you-too-could-have-made-curl-/ https://archive.fosdem.org/2024/schedule/event/fosdem-2024-1...

rhdunn 1y ago

You can use LLMs as part of the process of identifying bugs, developing features, etc. but you must verify the results. Accepting what the LLM says without testing, checking, and verifying the output is lazy and likely to produce errors, or make the code harder to maintain, e.g. if what the LLM produces isn't in line with the project's development/formatting standards or changes other parts of the code.

tolmasky 1y ago
Generally speaking, the second you realize a technology/process/anything has a hard requirement that individuals independently exercise responsibility or self-control, with no obvious immediate gain for themselves, it is almost certain that said technology/process/anything is unsalvageable in its current form. This is in the general case. But with LLMs, the entire selling point is specifically offloading "reasoning" to them. That is quite literally what they are selling you. So with LLMs, you can swap out "almost certain" in the above rule to "absolutely certain without a shadow of a doubt". This isn't even a hypothetical as we have experimental evidence that LLMs cause people to think/reason less. So you are at best already starting at a deficit. But more importantly, this makes the entire premise of using LLMs make no sense (at least from a marketing perspective). What good is a thinking machine if I need to verify it? Especially when you are telling me that it will be a "super reasoning" machine soon. Do I need a human "super verifier" to match? In fact, that's not even a tomorrow problem, that is a today problem: LLMs are quite literally advertised to me as a "PhD in my pocket". I don't have a PhD. Most people would find the idea of me "verifying the work of human PhDs" to be quite silly, so how does it make any sense that I am in any way qualified to verify my robo-PhD? I pay for it precisely because it knows more than I do! Do I now need to hire a human PhD to verify my robo-PhD?" Short of that, is it the case that only human PhDs are qualified to use robo-PhDs? In other words, should LLms exclusively be used for things the operator already knows how to do? That seems weird. It's like a Magic 8 Ball that only answers questions you already know the answer to. Hilariously, you could even find someone reaching the conclusion of "well, sure, a curl expert should verify the patch I am submitting to curl. That's what submitting the patch accomplishes! The experts who work on curl will verify it! Who better to do it than them?". And now we've come full circle! To be clear, each of these questions has plenty of counter-points/workarounds/etc. The point is not to present some philosophical gotcha argument against LLM use. The point rather is to demonstrate the fundamental mismatch between the value-proposition of LLMs and their theoretical "correct use", and thus demonstrate why it is astronomically unlikely for them to ever be used correctly.

kibwen 1y ago

Step 1: Set up a GoFundMe Step 2: Announce that, until the aforementioned GoFundMe reaches $10 million, all new commits to curl will be licensed under the AGPL. Step 3: Profit

ozgrakkurt 1y ago
Step 3: get forked and lose?
- renmillar 1y ago
  Step 4: it's someone else's problem, win
  - saghm 1y ago
    If they didn't want to keep maintaining it, they could just skip to step 4 and just not maintain it in the first place. The problem is that they do want to, and it's not like they haven't done it successfully for years now . Between "put up with whatever bullshit comes your way" and "give up entirely" is a wide spectrum of "try to find ways to reduce the bullshit to get to focus on the important parts", and most of the ways probably don't boil down to handful of pithy steps that could fit in an (original size) tweet.
    - renmillar 1y ago
      If someone competent wanted to take over my important work projects (deployment systems, core code maintenance, etc.), I'd gladly hand them over. I could orphan them right now claiming I need time for immediate tasks, but I don't want to dump unmaintained code on my team. I'd guess open source maintainers feel even more responsible since they see their work as community service. Maybe dropping the project is what's needed to trigger a well-funded fork or get corporate attention, similar to how Heartbleed affected OpenSSL.

LeonM 1y ago

From my experience, most businesses (or at least the developers working for them) actually would like to donate or pay for support on the OSS projects they rely on. The problem, at least from my experience, is that it is hard to do so due to legislation, compliance, etc. Example: I once convinced my employer to donate to some open source projects we relied on. They did, then few months later they got slapped on the wrist by the authorities for not being able to prove where these overseas payments were going to, and that these payments weren't used for funding terrorist activities. Similarly, I used to contribute to an OSS project, we did get asked by some corps to do paid work like bug fixes or features. The problem was that they required invoices in order for them to be allowed to pay us, so we needed to register as a company, get a tax number, etc. I was a freelancer at the time, so I offered to use my business registration to be able to invoice, then split the profit amongst the contributors. Then the very first paying 'customer' immediately hit us with a 20-page vendor assessment form asking about my SOC2 or ISO27001 certifications, data security policies, background checks of my 'employees' etc. Then I got confronted by my accountant that distributing the payment amongst other people would be seen as disguised wages and could get me into serious legal problems. Granted, this was some years ago, things have gotten better now with initiatives as Github Sponsors, KoFi and Patreon. But at the same time legislation has gotten more restrictive, doing business with large corps is difficult, expensive and very time consuming. It's not worth it for most OSS maintainers, and similarly it isn't worth the legal headache for the large corps to make these kind of donations.

spiffytech 1y ago
patio11 has said something similar: the tax authorities were inclined to read "donation" as "owner's personal spending", and expected accounting and taxes to be handled accordingly. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10863978 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10863978
woooooo 1y ago
Maybe we need to normalize bullshit consulting gigs then? There's plenty of those around anyways. "Optimized 100k HTTP requests per day".
- 1y ago

nwellnhof 1y ago

If he's unhappy, why doesn't he step down? That's what I did as libxslt maintainer and what I'm about to do as maintainer of libxml2.

aembleton 1y ago
He's not unhappy
saghm 1y ago
There are degrees of unhappiness. There's no reason to assume a binary of loving everything about work or hating it so much that they'd be happier without it. To be clear, this isn't intended as a criticism of your choices to step down from maintaining various projects; my point is that these choices are quite personal, and it's not always going to be obvious how to balance the tradeoffs. It's entirely possible that they are burnt out to the point that they might be happier in the long run if they did step down now, but it's also possible that they might be even more unhappy giving up something that they care a lot about and are willing to tolerate the less fun parts. I suspect you could provide a lot of valuable insight on these sorts of decisions given you experience, but even from having to make similar decisions for things with a tiny fraction of the exposure of the projects you've maintained, it's clear to me that there would need to be quite a lot more nuance in analyzing a situation like this, especially from the outside.
the_biot 1y ago
I think he's just pointing out current problems, as he's done many times. He likes to give talks and publicity to his project, as its maintainer, and that includes this sort of "what's going on with the project" talks. I don't think he's unhappy. Frankly I think he's doing the right thing, and I say that as the founder of a project where I didn't do that sort of thing, but now realize I should have. This is what gets you contributors/donations/publicity.

catherinebrigg 1y ago

[flagged]

salterdavid032 1y ago

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