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Why is the exact device the problem? 20 years ago everyone on suburban trains would be looking at a newspaper, magazine or book throughout their journey. Then

Why is the exact device the problem? 20 years ago everyone on suburban trains would be looking at a newspaper, magazine or book throughout their journey. Then they would watch a couple of hours of TV at home. Why is 'looking at a phone' such a problem, when most of the looking replicates those activities, with much of the rest being basic utilities which didn't exist previously - consulting a map, ordering food or shopping, looking up timetables or schedules?

sersi 1y ago
I remember meeting a lot of people by just talking to them in the subway during y daily commute. That happened both in France and Japan. Nowadays with phones it happens a lot less..
- fn-mote 1y ago
  > talking to them [...] Japan Really struggling to imagine people talking on the subway during their morning commute in Japan!! Culture changes.
- bsghirt 1y ago
  I commuted by public transit for around two decades before the ubiquity of smartphones and never experienced or witnessed this.
- throwaway2037 1y ago
  You spoke with "a lot" of people in Japan on the subway during your daily commute? I am stunned here. Can you provide more details? (Years / location / line?) I find this very hard to believe. Metro trains in Tokyo and Osaka (and suburbs) are basically silent except very late when people are drunk, talking with their friends.
  - sersi 1y ago
    Kyoto 2005 to 2008. Mostly Kintetsu and subway (mostly between Kyoto and Nara). Later keihan from demachiyanagi to shijo kawaramachi. I am the one who often initiated the conversation (apart from some osaka bachans who did initiate. I'm using that term of endearment not criticism despite their fearful reputation Osaka bachans are great). There were also significantly less tourists back then. Made a few friends with whom I still stay in touch. Also met my first wife like this. I had the same experience of meeting people in the same way in Shanghai in 2004 (bus and subway). And before that, in France，the bus line I took near my university was filled with students.
  - throawaywpg 1y ago
    I spoke with Japanese people on the subway. They were very friendly to this gaijin.
fn-mote 1y ago
You're ignoring the engineered addiction to the games on phones. Loot boxes, 2 free hours of play with double bonuses, etc. There is no engineered addiction to reading the New York Times, so people just put it down when something else wants their attention. Looking at a phone is a problem to the extent that it cuts you off from real interactions in society. It is a problem to the extent that the attention you pay to the phone does not go toward solving real problems. It can be a problem because it allows kids to escape from uncomfortable situations like struggling to learn something, and the Instagram-perfect view of the world makes their own lives feel inferior.
- bsghirt 1y ago
  But the New York Times on a phone is not particularly more or less addictive than the same content on a piece of paper. Nor does reading it on a phone cut anyone off from the rest of society any more than focusing on the printed paper or a book or a Walkman. If the problem is games, social media, or porn, why don't we identify those as social problems and try to fix them? Rather than blaming the device.
  - elzbardico 1y ago
    Oh! It definitely is, and it was engineered to make it more. The comments make sure of that, then you've got the alerts for Breaking News, the sense of urgency in animated visuals with shiny colors. Of course, the NYT in a phone is far more addicting.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - astafrig 1y ago
    I’m confident that people watching porn on suburban trains isn’t the problem.
  - jimbokun 1y ago
    Naming the device where we consume addictive content is just a convenient shorthand. If we just stuck to the same NY Times articles we would have read in the paper that would be fine. But very few of us have the will power to pick up our device and not wonder into social media apps.
throw0101d 1y ago
> 20 years ago everyone on suburban trains would be looking at a newspaper, magazine or book throughout their journey. Some folks did this, others chatted with the 'regulars' that they sat with that had the same schedule as them. There were television series based on this: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_48 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_48 Some folks didn't want to chat, and in the Toronto-area commuter rail there are designated zones for that: * https://www.gotransit.com/en/travelling-on-go/quiet-zone https://www.gotransit.com/en/travelling-on-go/quiet-zone
- bsghirt 1y ago
  What you are demonstrating is that already in 2003, people talking to each other during their commute was a fantasy rather than an actual occurrence.
  - throw0101d 1y ago
    Do you think the airborne drops of Operation Overlord were a fantasy because someone made a television (mini-)series on them (i.e., Band of Brothers)?
    - bsghirt 1y ago
      Certainly I would not take the television series as proof that they happened with regularity or in the way depicted.
      - throw0101d 1y ago
        You have simply gone in the other direction: taking the television series as proof something did not happen, that it was "fantasy".
elzbardico 1y ago
I had a long commute in public transport during the mid 2000s, made lots of acquaintances, even dated some girls I met on this bus. Definitely, people were more open to engage in conversation if you started it.
SchemaLoad 1y ago
There is an absolutely massive difference between reading a map and scrolling tiktok. The level of engagement and entertainment social media provides is off the charts compared to what people used to distract themselves with.
majormajor 1y ago
Nah, the portion of people on phones vs reading newspapers/magazines/books is much higher. Most people 20 years ago didn't find enough interesting in the average paper or magazine (and didn't read for pleasure much anyway). So it was a weak background distraction at most. Course, different places had different accepted levels of conversation - London tubes aren't chatty - but there's a difference in brain activity, patterns, anxiety, etc sitting in silence with your thoughts vs having the phone constantly trying to get "engagement" with attention-grabbing provocations. Similarly, watching TV at home was more "background" than "constant binge." The types of shows reflect this - intentionally repetitive, fairly low stakes, things are back to normal at the end of the episode, because most people weren't so hooked that they watched the same stuff every week at the same time. "Background phone use" is much more conversation-killing.
jimbokun 1y ago
The amount of time spent on phones is FAR greater than the time spent on all those activities you describe combined.
- hirvi74 1y ago
  What did you do with the other time? (Serious question)
nunez 1y ago
Today, instead of 3 hours of TV at home, it's 4-6 hours of TV in 10-sec snippets at max volume on devices that are much too big The secondhand socials are driving me nuts

sersi 1y ago

I remember meeting a lot of people by just talking to them in the subway during y daily commute. That happened both in France and Japan. Nowadays with phones it happens a lot less..

fn-mote 1y ago
> talking to them [...] Japan Really struggling to imagine people talking on the subway during their morning commute in Japan!! Culture changes.
bsghirt 1y ago
I commuted by public transit for around two decades before the ubiquity of smartphones and never experienced or witnessed this.
throwaway2037 1y ago
You spoke with "a lot" of people in Japan on the subway during your daily commute? I am stunned here. Can you provide more details? (Years / location / line?) I find this very hard to believe. Metro trains in Tokyo and Osaka (and suburbs) are basically silent except very late when people are drunk, talking with their friends.
- sersi 1y ago
  Kyoto 2005 to 2008. Mostly Kintetsu and subway (mostly between Kyoto and Nara). Later keihan from demachiyanagi to shijo kawaramachi. I am the one who often initiated the conversation (apart from some osaka bachans who did initiate. I'm using that term of endearment not criticism despite their fearful reputation Osaka bachans are great). There were also significantly less tourists back then. Made a few friends with whom I still stay in touch. Also met my first wife like this. I had the same experience of meeting people in the same way in Shanghai in 2004 (bus and subway). And before that, in France，the bus line I took near my university was filled with students.
- throawaywpg 1y ago
  I spoke with Japanese people on the subway. They were very friendly to this gaijin.

fn-mote 1y ago

You're ignoring the engineered addiction to the games on phones. Loot boxes, 2 free hours of play with double bonuses, etc. There is no engineered addiction to reading the New York Times, so people just put it down when something else wants their attention. Looking at a phone is a problem to the extent that it cuts you off from real interactions in society. It is a problem to the extent that the attention you pay to the phone does not go toward solving real problems. It can be a problem because it allows kids to escape from uncomfortable situations like struggling to learn something, and the Instagram-perfect view of the world makes their own lives feel inferior.

bsghirt 1y ago
But the New York Times on a phone is not particularly more or less addictive than the same content on a piece of paper. Nor does reading it on a phone cut anyone off from the rest of society any more than focusing on the printed paper or a book or a Walkman. If the problem is games, social media, or porn, why don't we identify those as social problems and try to fix them? Rather than blaming the device.
- elzbardico 1y ago
  Oh! It definitely is, and it was engineered to make it more. The comments make sure of that, then you've got the alerts for Breaking News, the sense of urgency in animated visuals with shiny colors. Of course, the NYT in a phone is far more addicting.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- astafrig 1y ago
  I’m confident that people watching porn on suburban trains isn’t the problem.
- jimbokun 1y ago
  Naming the device where we consume addictive content is just a convenient shorthand. If we just stuck to the same NY Times articles we would have read in the paper that would be fine. But very few of us have the will power to pick up our device and not wonder into social media apps.

throw0101d 1y ago

> 20 years ago everyone on suburban trains would be looking at a newspaper, magazine or book throughout their journey. Some folks did this, others chatted with the 'regulars' that they sat with that had the same schedule as them. There were television series based on this: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_48 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_48 Some folks didn't want to chat, and in the Toronto-area commuter rail there are designated zones for that: * https://www.gotransit.com/en/travelling-on-go/quiet-zone https://www.gotransit.com/en/travelling-on-go/quiet-zone

bsghirt 1y ago
What you are demonstrating is that already in 2003, people talking to each other during their commute was a fantasy rather than an actual occurrence.
- throw0101d 1y ago
  Do you think the airborne drops of Operation Overlord were a fantasy because someone made a television (mini-)series on them (i.e., Band of Brothers)?
  - bsghirt 1y ago
    Certainly I would not take the television series as proof that they happened with regularity or in the way depicted.
    - throw0101d 1y ago
      You have simply gone in the other direction: taking the television series as proof something did not happen, that it was "fantasy".

elzbardico 1y ago

I had a long commute in public transport during the mid 2000s, made lots of acquaintances, even dated some girls I met on this bus. Definitely, people were more open to engage in conversation if you started it.

SchemaLoad 1y ago

There is an absolutely massive difference between reading a map and scrolling tiktok. The level of engagement and entertainment social media provides is off the charts compared to what people used to distract themselves with.

majormajor 1y ago

Nah, the portion of people on phones vs reading newspapers/magazines/books is much higher. Most people 20 years ago didn't find enough interesting in the average paper or magazine (and didn't read for pleasure much anyway). So it was a weak background distraction at most. Course, different places had different accepted levels of conversation - London tubes aren't chatty - but there's a difference in brain activity, patterns, anxiety, etc sitting in silence with your thoughts vs having the phone constantly trying to get "engagement" with attention-grabbing provocations. Similarly, watching TV at home was more "background" than "constant binge." The types of shows reflect this - intentionally repetitive, fairly low stakes, things are back to normal at the end of the episode, because most people weren't so hooked that they watched the same stuff every week at the same time. "Background phone use" is much more conversation-killing.

jimbokun 1y ago

The amount of time spent on phones is FAR greater than the time spent on all those activities you describe combined.

hirvi74 1y ago
What did you do with the other time? (Serious question)

nunez 1y ago

Today, instead of 3 hours of TV at home, it's 4-6 hours of TV in 10-sec snippets at max volume on devices that are much too big The secondhand socials are driving me nuts