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My understanding is that this works on-device (via the iPhone), so I wonder what the regulatory issue is. Perhaps the regulations treat is as if you’re “record

My understanding is that this works on-device (via the iPhone), so I wonder what the regulatory issue is. Perhaps the regulations treat is as if you’re “recording” the person you’re speaking with, without their consent?

pornel 1y ago
[flagged]
- JustExAWS 1y ago
  The EU said that everything that Apple creates for its own devices has to have APIs for third parties. The translation feature only works for AirPods.
  - hn8726 1y ago
    Ok so it's not "airpods live translation" really, but "ios live translation" and there's no technical reason to limit it to airpods?
    - JustExAWS 1y ago
      The audio input comes from the AirPods not the iPhone. It’s processed on the iPhone. The audio is captured by the outward facing microphones used for active noise cancellations. That’s why it only works for AirPods Pro 2, 3 and AirPods 4 with ANC. That wouldn’t just work with any headphones. Even the AirPods Pro 2 will need a firmware update. They won’t work with just any old headphones and seeing that even the AirPods Pro 2 need a firmware update tells me that it is something they are doing with their H2 chip in their headphones in concert with the iPhone.
      - StopDisinfo910 1y ago
        I mean, technically, any competitors with noise cancelling headphones able to pick up a voice stream would be able to use the same processing on the iPhone to offer an equivalent feature. That it only works with AirPods is just Apple discriminating in favour of their own product which is exactly what the EU was going after.
        JustExAWS 1y ago
        Sure if they also want to train a model that supports their sound profile, build an app that captures the audio, etc. But their $60 ANC headphones with cheap audio processing hardware in the headphones aren’t going to be sufficient. They may even be able to use the exposed models on the phone.
        StopDisinfo910 1y ago
        > But their $60 ANC headphones with cheap audio processing hardware in the headphones aren’t going to be sufficient. The equivalent feature on Android tells me it would. I mean it already does technically. Are we supposed to treat Apple being late to the party as usual as some kind of exceptional thing only them could do?
        JustExAWS 1y ago
        According to the specs - it only works with Google’s own headphones https://support.google.com/googlepixelbuds/answer/7573100?hl=en&authuser=1 https://support.google.com/googlepixelbuds/answer/7573100?hl... Which are the same price as Apple’s AirPods with ANC. So Google also didn’t try to support the feature with generic earbuds.
        StopDisinfo910 1y ago
        The contrary is literally written in a large yellow box on the page you linked: “Note: Google Translate works with all Assistant-optimized headphones and Android phones.” But I mean, you are free to buy overpriced Apple headphones which sounds worse than Sony, only properly works paired with an Apple phone or laptop and whose killer feature was available on their competitors buds years ago if that rocks your boat.
        JustExAWS 1y ago
        You didn’t look at the prices of other “Google assistant” compatible headphones did you? And those Sony ones aren’t cheap. The first review I found comparing them.. https://wasteofserver.com/sony-wf-1000xm4-vs-apple/ https://wasteofserver.com/sony-wf-1000xm4-vs-apple/ Why would I want to by a none Apple laptop with horrible battery life, loud, and that produces enough heat to ensure that I don’t have offspring if I actually put it on my lap?
    - praseodym 1y ago
      Or other services, such as translation using Google Translate.
  - whazor 1y ago
    Also the feature doesn't work on Android, so it is not an 'AirPods' feature but a 'iOS'+'AirPods' feature.
- jjice 1y ago
  Is there any evidence for this at all? The EU has plenty of regulation surrounding audio recording, as other comments have said. Instead of jumping to the assumption of malicious intent, I think those make more sense up front. I don't think this is a real bargaining chip for Apple to use against the EU for the side loading stuff. I dislike Apple's malicious compliance with the EU too, but it seems unrelated here, at least without any proof.
  - cenamus 1y ago
    Do no US states have similar laws regarding recording strangers?
    - int_19h 1y ago
      They do, but most states only require one party to consent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_call_recording_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_call_recording_laws
      - adastra22 1y ago
        Notably California, home to apple, is a two party state.
  - layer8 1y ago
    Google Pixel Buds and Samsung Galaxy Buds basically provide the same feature of realtime translation. Either Apple is withholding the feature without any real cause, or the cause lies in some aspect where Apple doesn’t allow third-party manufacturers to provide the same feature under iOS, while Android does. I don’t know which is the case, but both put Apple in a bad light, along with the fact that they don’t explain the exact reason for the limitation.
    - jen20 1y ago
      It would not remotely surprise me to discover that either Google or Samsung were doing something untoward that Apple is not willing to do. In fact, that would be one of the least surprising things I'd ever heard.
- chneu 1y ago
  Apple is using the conservative approach, which is to misrepresent their starting position by moving the goal posts to an extreme. Then they bargain towards the "middle". It creates the illusion of bargaining. So Apple is throwing a huge tantrum and withholding features from the EU to act like this is a much bigger deal than it is. This gives Apple a lot more bargaining room after the EU bitch slapped them. Apple likely already has an API they could enable and be done with this. They won't do that. Apple needs exclusivity with new feature releases because they don't do things all that well anymore(Siri, maps, etc, nobody uses those because there are better alts available on ios). But yeah Apple is just starting way to the extreme so they have more room to bargain. Hopefully the EU sees through this, again, and doesn't budge.
  - permo-w 1y ago
    Essentially irrelevant to your main point, but: >Apple needs exclusivity with new feature releases because they don't do things all that well anymore(Siri, maps, etc, nobody uses those because there are better alts available on ios). Siri was okay for a very brief window after release and then dreadful ever since and Apple Maps was never good, but has gotten better. Etc maybe more valid idk
  - dnissley 1y ago
    I keep seeing accusations of tantrums. Can a company say no without it being a tantrum?
- tick_tock_tick 1y ago
  > Europe are randomly unknowably illegal for no reason I mean they absolutely are especially as EU regulators categorically refuse to review anything in advance just in-case their get a budget shortfalls and need to go looking for fines.
paxys 1y ago
If it works on device then it should be easy for another headphone maker to integrate it. Except Apple doesn't let them do that.
- foobar10000 1y ago
  It’s not that simple - when implementing this one runs into the issue that detecting self speech is a solved problem - BUT detecting the speech of a person talking AT you in a restaurant is not nearly that easy - this is known as diarization. This needs custom models - and I am willing to bet the model for the iPhone is tuned specifically to the AirPods . How would they even provide that? And I’d bet that the customer microphones in the AirPods provide a much better time synced stream to the phone than just a random pair of phones - I’d be willing to bet this is not just Bluetooth, but also out of band clock drift, etc. Which allows for much better phase data - which makes training diarization models simpler- and makes the accurate. So - I’d bet there is a per headset model here - and one that probably requires more than just audio.
  - bootsmann 1y ago
    The issue the EU has is much simplr than this. They are not requesting Apple to provide a model that works for their competitors headphones, they are requesting they also allow their competitors to run their own models the same way Apple allows the AirPods to.
    - therein 1y ago
      Quite a burden to provide an ecosystem. I mean doesn't this extend to anything you want it to extend to? From AirDrop to the complete feature set of the AirTag and FindMy ecosystem. Your non Apple airtag has to show up in FindMy or at least be capable of being added? You have ultra-wideband features for AirTag. You need to make that available too? If I were Apple, I'd say you got what you want EU, it works on ALL earphones in EU. But it will be absolutely terribly shitty because we will use the same model trained for our AirPods on your random headphones. You're using a third party BLE airtag and clicking on UWB? Enjoy tracking this approximate noisy location that we're basing off of some noise pattern we didn't lock on. Feature provided, just not well. Goes against Apple's ethos of trying to make things polished but don't let some bureaucrats weaponize that against you.

pornel 1y ago

[flagged]

JustExAWS 1y ago
The EU said that everything that Apple creates for its own devices has to have APIs for third parties. The translation feature only works for AirPods.
- hn8726 1y ago
  Ok so it's not "airpods live translation" really, but "ios live translation" and there's no technical reason to limit it to airpods?
  - JustExAWS 1y ago
    The audio input comes from the AirPods not the iPhone. It’s processed on the iPhone. The audio is captured by the outward facing microphones used for active noise cancellations. That’s why it only works for AirPods Pro 2, 3 and AirPods 4 with ANC. That wouldn’t just work with any headphones. Even the AirPods Pro 2 will need a firmware update. They won’t work with just any old headphones and seeing that even the AirPods Pro 2 need a firmware update tells me that it is something they are doing with their H2 chip in their headphones in concert with the iPhone.
    - StopDisinfo910 1y ago
      I mean, technically, any competitors with noise cancelling headphones able to pick up a voice stream would be able to use the same processing on the iPhone to offer an equivalent feature. That it only works with AirPods is just Apple discriminating in favour of their own product which is exactly what the EU was going after.
      - JustExAWS 1y ago
        Sure if they also want to train a model that supports their sound profile, build an app that captures the audio, etc. But their $60 ANC headphones with cheap audio processing hardware in the headphones aren’t going to be sufficient. They may even be able to use the exposed models on the phone.
        StopDisinfo910 1y ago
        > But their $60 ANC headphones with cheap audio processing hardware in the headphones aren’t going to be sufficient. The equivalent feature on Android tells me it would. I mean it already does technically. Are we supposed to treat Apple being late to the party as usual as some kind of exceptional thing only them could do?
        JustExAWS 1y ago
        According to the specs - it only works with Google’s own headphones https://support.google.com/googlepixelbuds/answer/7573100?hl=en&authuser=1 https://support.google.com/googlepixelbuds/answer/7573100?hl... Which are the same price as Apple’s AirPods with ANC. So Google also didn’t try to support the feature with generic earbuds.
        StopDisinfo910 1y ago
        The contrary is literally written in a large yellow box on the page you linked: “Note: Google Translate works with all Assistant-optimized headphones and Android phones.” But I mean, you are free to buy overpriced Apple headphones which sounds worse than Sony, only properly works paired with an Apple phone or laptop and whose killer feature was available on their competitors buds years ago if that rocks your boat.
        JustExAWS 1y ago
        You didn’t look at the prices of other “Google assistant” compatible headphones did you? And those Sony ones aren’t cheap. The first review I found comparing them.. https://wasteofserver.com/sony-wf-1000xm4-vs-apple/ https://wasteofserver.com/sony-wf-1000xm4-vs-apple/ Why would I want to by a none Apple laptop with horrible battery life, loud, and that produces enough heat to ensure that I don’t have offspring if I actually put it on my lap?
  - praseodym 1y ago
    Or other services, such as translation using Google Translate.
- whazor 1y ago
  Also the feature doesn't work on Android, so it is not an 'AirPods' feature but a 'iOS'+'AirPods' feature.
jjice 1y ago
Is there any evidence for this at all? The EU has plenty of regulation surrounding audio recording, as other comments have said. Instead of jumping to the assumption of malicious intent, I think those make more sense up front. I don't think this is a real bargaining chip for Apple to use against the EU for the side loading stuff. I dislike Apple's malicious compliance with the EU too, but it seems unrelated here, at least without any proof.
- cenamus 1y ago
  Do no US states have similar laws regarding recording strangers?
  - int_19h 1y ago
    They do, but most states only require one party to consent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_call_recording_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_call_recording_laws
    - adastra22 1y ago
      Notably California, home to apple, is a two party state.
- layer8 1y ago
  Google Pixel Buds and Samsung Galaxy Buds basically provide the same feature of realtime translation. Either Apple is withholding the feature without any real cause, or the cause lies in some aspect where Apple doesn’t allow third-party manufacturers to provide the same feature under iOS, while Android does. I don’t know which is the case, but both put Apple in a bad light, along with the fact that they don’t explain the exact reason for the limitation.
  - jen20 1y ago
    It would not remotely surprise me to discover that either Google or Samsung were doing something untoward that Apple is not willing to do. In fact, that would be one of the least surprising things I'd ever heard.
chneu 1y ago
Apple is using the conservative approach, which is to misrepresent their starting position by moving the goal posts to an extreme. Then they bargain towards the "middle". It creates the illusion of bargaining. So Apple is throwing a huge tantrum and withholding features from the EU to act like this is a much bigger deal than it is. This gives Apple a lot more bargaining room after the EU bitch slapped them. Apple likely already has an API they could enable and be done with this. They won't do that. Apple needs exclusivity with new feature releases because they don't do things all that well anymore(Siri, maps, etc, nobody uses those because there are better alts available on ios). But yeah Apple is just starting way to the extreme so they have more room to bargain. Hopefully the EU sees through this, again, and doesn't budge.
- permo-w 1y ago
  Essentially irrelevant to your main point, but: >Apple needs exclusivity with new feature releases because they don't do things all that well anymore(Siri, maps, etc, nobody uses those because there are better alts available on ios). Siri was okay for a very brief window after release and then dreadful ever since and Apple Maps was never good, but has gotten better. Etc maybe more valid idk
- dnissley 1y ago
  I keep seeing accusations of tantrums. Can a company say no without it being a tantrum?
tick_tock_tick 1y ago
> Europe are randomly unknowably illegal for no reason I mean they absolutely are especially as EU regulators categorically refuse to review anything in advance just in-case their get a budget shortfalls and need to go looking for fines.

paxys 1y ago

If it works on device then it should be easy for another headphone maker to integrate it. Except Apple doesn't let them do that.

foobar10000 1y ago
It’s not that simple - when implementing this one runs into the issue that detecting self speech is a solved problem - BUT detecting the speech of a person talking AT you in a restaurant is not nearly that easy - this is known as diarization. This needs custom models - and I am willing to bet the model for the iPhone is tuned specifically to the AirPods . How would they even provide that? And I’d bet that the customer microphones in the AirPods provide a much better time synced stream to the phone than just a random pair of phones - I’d be willing to bet this is not just Bluetooth, but also out of band clock drift, etc. Which allows for much better phase data - which makes training diarization models simpler- and makes the accurate. So - I’d bet there is a per headset model here - and one that probably requires more than just audio.
- bootsmann 1y ago
  The issue the EU has is much simplr than this. They are not requesting Apple to provide a model that works for their competitors headphones, they are requesting they also allow their competitors to run their own models the same way Apple allows the AirPods to.
  - therein 1y ago
    Quite a burden to provide an ecosystem. I mean doesn't this extend to anything you want it to extend to? From AirDrop to the complete feature set of the AirTag and FindMy ecosystem. Your non Apple airtag has to show up in FindMy or at least be capable of being added? You have ultra-wideband features for AirTag. You need to make that available too? If I were Apple, I'd say you got what you want EU, it works on ALL earphones in EU. But it will be absolutely terribly shitty because we will use the same model trained for our AirPods on your random headphones. You're using a third party BLE airtag and clicking on UWB? Enjoy tracking this approximate noisy location that we're basing off of some noise pattern we didn't lock on. Feature provided, just not well. Goes against Apple's ethos of trying to make things polished but don't let some bureaucrats weaponize that against you.