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What you’re describing is perfectly possible without a car. I live in Amsterdam and have a young family. We own an electric cargo bike that we use for grocerie

What you’re describing is perfectly possible without a car. I live in Amsterdam and have a young family. We own an electric cargo bike that we use for groceries and to cart around our daughter. You can use it with an infant car seat and for larger kids. When we need a car we use a car sharing app. There are around 10 cars within walking distance of our flat. Many people in cities _want_ a car but don’t need one.

Saline9515 1y ago
Cargo bikes are dangerous for children, there is little protection in case of an accident (not necessarily with a car, a bollard is enough) and well once you have one child in, you can't really have groceries. You can't use it when it's freezing. What you describe is typical of a one-child family in Netherland, but doesn't fit the reality of most of European cities. Also Netherland has a rather high amount of cars per head, so not everyone thinks like you ;-)
- jjevanoorschot 1y ago
  I’m not saying that everyone in the Netherlands agrees with me. I’m just illustrating that it’s perfectly possible to live in a city like Paris or Amsterdam with a family and without a car.
  - Saline9515 1y ago
    Impossible to go to a store, buy groceries for a week with two kids on a bike. And at some point the cargo bike gets as big as a small car.
    - victornomad 1y ago
      that's exactly my situation and many of my friends and no problem at all :)
      - Saline9515 1y ago
        Where do you put the toilet paper? The diapers? I can fill a 400 L boot easily with weekly groceries for a family of 4. Most cargo bikes have max 300L space, you have no space left for children.
        fragmede 1y ago
        So go twice a week? I'm not sure what to call people when they can't solve problems that easy There may be issues with my solution, but if that solution is so obvious, maybe you could have used more words in your comment.
        Saline9515 1y ago
        Twice a week doesn't solve the problem that you can have groceries + kids in a cargo bike. And we aren't all retired or in a cosy 30h job that allows back and forth all week.
        fragmede 1y ago
        oh so you're lazy, got it.
- AlecSchueler 1y ago
  > Also Netherland has a rather high amount of cars per head, so not everyone thinks like you ;-) You can bet all those car users also ride bikes though. It's just very common in the NL to live in one city and work in another, things like that. I know people who have cars they use to go to work and back and then take all other journies via foot, bike or public transport. In short it's not an either/or thing.
  - Saline9515 1y ago
    Lol sounds very car-centric to me, commuting to work by car. ;-)
    - gardnr 1y ago
      Peter Jacobsen (2003) analyzed multiple datasets and found that the risk per cyclist decreased as the total number of cyclists increased. He observed this pattern across intersections, cities, and time periods. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/10574383_Safety_in_numbers_More_walkers_and_bicyclists_safer_walking_and_bicycling https://www.researchgate.net/publication/10574383_Safety_in_...
    - AlecSchueler 1y ago
      Yes, if you focus on one see fragment alone then I'm actually saying the opposite of that I said. But being car centric or not doesn't even matter here. The argument that car owners don't think like cyclists doesn't apply to car owners who spend a significant portion of their week on bicycles.
- potatoz2 1y ago
  Are they very dangerous for children? Are there statistics? It doesn’t really freeze in Paris anymore so it's a moot point, but you can ride bikes when it does (you need different tires, just like cars, and a city that clears the roads, just like for cars).
  - Saline9515 1y ago
    A bike going at full speed on the sidewalk is dangerous to children, yes. It is why many cities banned cyclists there, which as a result led to a decrease in accidents. Pedestrians don't go at the same pace and can be particularly vulnerable, so I don't see why you need a statistic to understand this basic fact.

Saline9515 1y ago

Cargo bikes are dangerous for children, there is little protection in case of an accident (not necessarily with a car, a bollard is enough) and well once you have one child in, you can't really have groceries. You can't use it when it's freezing. What you describe is typical of a one-child family in Netherland, but doesn't fit the reality of most of European cities. Also Netherland has a rather high amount of cars per head, so not everyone thinks like you ;-)

jjevanoorschot 1y ago
I’m not saying that everyone in the Netherlands agrees with me. I’m just illustrating that it’s perfectly possible to live in a city like Paris or Amsterdam with a family and without a car.
- Saline9515 1y ago
  Impossible to go to a store, buy groceries for a week with two kids on a bike. And at some point the cargo bike gets as big as a small car.
  - victornomad 1y ago
    that's exactly my situation and many of my friends and no problem at all :)
    - Saline9515 1y ago
      Where do you put the toilet paper? The diapers? I can fill a 400 L boot easily with weekly groceries for a family of 4. Most cargo bikes have max 300L space, you have no space left for children.
      - fragmede 1y ago
        So go twice a week? I'm not sure what to call people when they can't solve problems that easy There may be issues with my solution, but if that solution is so obvious, maybe you could have used more words in your comment.
        Saline9515 1y ago
        Twice a week doesn't solve the problem that you can have groceries + kids in a cargo bike. And we aren't all retired or in a cosy 30h job that allows back and forth all week.
        fragmede 1y ago
        oh so you're lazy, got it.
AlecSchueler 1y ago
> Also Netherland has a rather high amount of cars per head, so not everyone thinks like you ;-) You can bet all those car users also ride bikes though. It's just very common in the NL to live in one city and work in another, things like that. I know people who have cars they use to go to work and back and then take all other journies via foot, bike or public transport. In short it's not an either/or thing.
- Saline9515 1y ago
  Lol sounds very car-centric to me, commuting to work by car. ;-)
  - gardnr 1y ago
    Peter Jacobsen (2003) analyzed multiple datasets and found that the risk per cyclist decreased as the total number of cyclists increased. He observed this pattern across intersections, cities, and time periods. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/10574383_Safety_in_numbers_More_walkers_and_bicyclists_safer_walking_and_bicycling https://www.researchgate.net/publication/10574383_Safety_in_...
  - AlecSchueler 1y ago
    Yes, if you focus on one see fragment alone then I'm actually saying the opposite of that I said. But being car centric or not doesn't even matter here. The argument that car owners don't think like cyclists doesn't apply to car owners who spend a significant portion of their week on bicycles.
potatoz2 1y ago
Are they very dangerous for children? Are there statistics? It doesn’t really freeze in Paris anymore so it's a moot point, but you can ride bikes when it does (you need different tires, just like cars, and a city that clears the roads, just like for cars).
- Saline9515 1y ago
  A bike going at full speed on the sidewalk is dangerous to children, yes. It is why many cities banned cyclists there, which as a result led to a decrease in accidents. Pedestrians don't go at the same pace and can be particularly vulnerable, so I don't see why you need a statistic to understand this basic fact.