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> And if they did, a team of neuroscientists from the local university was waiting to gently torture them. > The researchers were on site to test how well alco

> And if they did, a team of neuroscientists from the local university was waiting to gently torture them. > The researchers were on site to test how well alcohol can numb pain. > “Ethically, we can’t ask people to drink alcohol to levels they do in their day-to-day lives,” > the point beyond which they felt proper consent was hard to establish. How is this study ethical? Researchers declared they do not need formal consent, because that would be too hard, and just went on, to torture impaired people! Universities were going on and on, how drunk people can not consent, and even saying hi to someone in a bar is unethical! And now serious research institute pulls this stunt with torturing people without their consent!

titanomachy 1y ago
I'm pretty sure they're saying they didn't experiment on anyone over 0.15 BAC, because they felt that those people were unable to give true consent.
- throejd84mrifmr 1y ago
  > A blood alcohol content (BAC) of 0.15% is considered a very high level, resulting in severe impairment of balance, coordination, and muscle control, making walking and talking difficult. At this level, you may experience confusion, vomiting, loss of consciousness How this intoxication level was measured? I seriously doubt they carried scales and analyzed blood samples, before asking for consent!
  - lazyasciiart 1y ago
    Breathalyzer tests. Was that a real question? https://www.startribune.com/does-booze-relieve-pain-u-researchers-test-inebriated-minnesota-state-fair-patrons-to-find-out/601158376 https://www.startribune.com/does-booze-relieve-pain-u-resear...
    - Scoundreller 1y ago
      Which different countries use different constants to convert to blood alcohol concentrations. But the conversion factor isn’t constant, even if laws pretend it is. The same “breath” reading could give you 15% different results depending on the country the test is taken in… https://www.dart-sensors.com/breath-alcohol-conversions-for-different-countries/ https://www.dart-sensors.com/breath-alcohol-conversions-for-...
      - lazyasciiart 1y ago
        Oh, are you concerned that the event took place across multiple countries? That is a weird concern.
brian-armstrong 1y ago
> Universities were going on and on, how drunk people can not consent, and even saying hi to someone in a bar is unethical! Actually they've been saying that drunk people can't consent to sex, not to saying "hi." Bit of a difference, that.
- throejd84mrifmr 1y ago
  [flagged]
- conductr 1y ago
  Isn't choosing to engage as a participant in a study more analogous to entering a contract which is also generally deemed inappropriate/invalid while under the influence? Just saying there's a ton of grey area. I've never taken sex too seriously, meaning if I did something I regretted while impaired, I just shrugged it off. Other people obviously feel sex is a much bigger issue and regrettable situations are absolutely unacceptable to the point where it's their partners fault for somehow knowing how impaired you are, determining whether your consent is valid, etc. I personally don't get it, how it's become victim shaming to expect people to control their own selves. I get that date rape type stuff is very real and tragic but again, lots of grey area between that and regrettable drunk night out type stuff that's way more common. All to say, there exists a wide spectrum of what any given person may feel about this exact subject.
- fluoridation 1y ago
  If a drunk person can't consent to sex because their judgement is impaired then they can't consent to anything, because their judgement is impaired. Why would sex be different from any other social interaction?
  - someothherguyy 1y ago
    https://www.justia.com/criminal/defenses/intoxication/ https://www.justia.com/criminal/defenses/intoxication/
  - tgv 1y ago
    If someone can't consent to anything, can they be allowed on the street? Or even to stay in the same house as others? I think it isn't black and white. There are acts which carry a greater responsibility than others, and there are levels of inebriation (the word itself already implying different levels of soundness of mind). Driving a car can be dangerous to self and others, hence is forbidden from a certain level of intoxication; sex is complicated, and is generally, widely accepted to require some form of consent in many countries, hence it becomes more problematic as the alcohol level rises.
oersted 1y ago
I can’t see it explicitly specified in the article, but let’s not make a mountain out of a molehill, it says “gently torture”, it’s clearly tong-and-cheek, I doubt it’s more than a pinprick.
- normie3000 1y ago
  > it says “gently torture”, it’s clearly tong-and-cheek Tongs do not sound gentle!
  - rkomorn 1y ago
    They obviously made a typo. They meant "thong". That's why it's "thong-and-cheek".
    - Dilettante_ 1y ago
      Well now we're back to the topic of sexual consent!
      - rkomorn 1y ago
        Touché (but only conceptually). :D
sfn42 1y ago
[flagged]
- saagarjha 1y ago
  You know what's not fun? Rape.
  - sfn42 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - 1718627440 1y ago
      > if Harvey Weinstein tells some aspiring young actress that he'll cast her in a movie or whatever if she blows him then IMO it's still on her to stand up for herself. I mostly agree with you, but this is a fuzzy boundary. Boss: do ... with me or maybe I don't feel like employing you anymore In my opinion this is not voluntary. It's extortion for sex which I would call rape. But how is it different from: I employ you, if you ... me? In both cases it's an ultimatum for sex -> employment.
      - sfn42 1y ago
        I'm with you, like I said it's not okay. It just isn't rape, as I understand the word. Extortion sure. Despicable sure. Illegal I don't know but it definitely seems to me like it should be. I just don't see any reason to use the word rape for it. I think people want to use it because it sounds bad and they want to express that this person is a bad person, but on the other hand it devalues the word in a way. Like did he rape someone or did he "rape" someone? Any time I hear about some celebrity rape thing that's what I wonder. Is the guy a actual rapist or are people just putting the rape label on a less severe (although possibly still despicable) act?
        1718627440 1y ago
        > I just don't see any reason to use the word rape for it. That's what I disagree on. What's your definition of rape? I would define it as forcing someone to have sex. Is extortion not forcing someone?
saagarjha 1y ago
It's really weird how you made this about your inability to understand informed consent.

titanomachy 1y ago

I'm pretty sure they're saying they didn't experiment on anyone over 0.15 BAC, because they felt that those people were unable to give true consent.

throejd84mrifmr 1y ago
> A blood alcohol content (BAC) of 0.15% is considered a very high level, resulting in severe impairment of balance, coordination, and muscle control, making walking and talking difficult. At this level, you may experience confusion, vomiting, loss of consciousness How this intoxication level was measured? I seriously doubt they carried scales and analyzed blood samples, before asking for consent!
- lazyasciiart 1y ago
  Breathalyzer tests. Was that a real question? https://www.startribune.com/does-booze-relieve-pain-u-researchers-test-inebriated-minnesota-state-fair-patrons-to-find-out/601158376 https://www.startribune.com/does-booze-relieve-pain-u-resear...
  - Scoundreller 1y ago
    Which different countries use different constants to convert to blood alcohol concentrations. But the conversion factor isn’t constant, even if laws pretend it is. The same “breath” reading could give you 15% different results depending on the country the test is taken in… https://www.dart-sensors.com/breath-alcohol-conversions-for-different-countries/ https://www.dart-sensors.com/breath-alcohol-conversions-for-...
    - lazyasciiart 1y ago
      Oh, are you concerned that the event took place across multiple countries? That is a weird concern.

brian-armstrong 1y ago

> Universities were going on and on, how drunk people can not consent, and even saying hi to someone in a bar is unethical! Actually they've been saying that drunk people can't consent to sex, not to saying "hi." Bit of a difference, that.

throejd84mrifmr 1y ago
[flagged]
conductr 1y ago
Isn't choosing to engage as a participant in a study more analogous to entering a contract which is also generally deemed inappropriate/invalid while under the influence? Just saying there's a ton of grey area. I've never taken sex too seriously, meaning if I did something I regretted while impaired, I just shrugged it off. Other people obviously feel sex is a much bigger issue and regrettable situations are absolutely unacceptable to the point where it's their partners fault for somehow knowing how impaired you are, determining whether your consent is valid, etc. I personally don't get it, how it's become victim shaming to expect people to control their own selves. I get that date rape type stuff is very real and tragic but again, lots of grey area between that and regrettable drunk night out type stuff that's way more common. All to say, there exists a wide spectrum of what any given person may feel about this exact subject.
fluoridation 1y ago
If a drunk person can't consent to sex because their judgement is impaired then they can't consent to anything, because their judgement is impaired. Why would sex be different from any other social interaction?
- someothherguyy 1y ago
  https://www.justia.com/criminal/defenses/intoxication/ https://www.justia.com/criminal/defenses/intoxication/
- tgv 1y ago
  If someone can't consent to anything, can they be allowed on the street? Or even to stay in the same house as others? I think it isn't black and white. There are acts which carry a greater responsibility than others, and there are levels of inebriation (the word itself already implying different levels of soundness of mind). Driving a car can be dangerous to self and others, hence is forbidden from a certain level of intoxication; sex is complicated, and is generally, widely accepted to require some form of consent in many countries, hence it becomes more problematic as the alcohol level rises.

oersted 1y ago

I can’t see it explicitly specified in the article, but let’s not make a mountain out of a molehill, it says “gently torture”, it’s clearly tong-and-cheek, I doubt it’s more than a pinprick.

normie3000 1y ago
> it says “gently torture”, it’s clearly tong-and-cheek Tongs do not sound gentle!
- rkomorn 1y ago
  They obviously made a typo. They meant "thong". That's why it's "thong-and-cheek".
  - Dilettante_ 1y ago
    Well now we're back to the topic of sexual consent!
    - rkomorn 1y ago
      Touché (but only conceptually). :D

sfn42 1y ago

[flagged]

saagarjha 1y ago
You know what's not fun? Rape.
- sfn42 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - 1718627440 1y ago
    > if Harvey Weinstein tells some aspiring young actress that he'll cast her in a movie or whatever if she blows him then IMO it's still on her to stand up for herself. I mostly agree with you, but this is a fuzzy boundary. Boss: do ... with me or maybe I don't feel like employing you anymore In my opinion this is not voluntary. It's extortion for sex which I would call rape. But how is it different from: I employ you, if you ... me? In both cases it's an ultimatum for sex -> employment.
    - sfn42 1y ago
      I'm with you, like I said it's not okay. It just isn't rape, as I understand the word. Extortion sure. Despicable sure. Illegal I don't know but it definitely seems to me like it should be. I just don't see any reason to use the word rape for it. I think people want to use it because it sounds bad and they want to express that this person is a bad person, but on the other hand it devalues the word in a way. Like did he rape someone or did he "rape" someone? Any time I hear about some celebrity rape thing that's what I wonder. Is the guy a actual rapist or are people just putting the rape label on a less severe (although possibly still despicable) act?
      - 1718627440 1y ago
        > I just don't see any reason to use the word rape for it. That's what I disagree on. What's your definition of rape? I would define it as forcing someone to have sex. Is extortion not forcing someone?

saagarjha 1y ago

It's really weird how you made this about your inability to understand informed consent.