5 ms·

I'm actually considering buying myself an iPhone for the first time. I have basically two priorities when buying an phone: 1. Freedom. I should be able to buil

by Macha 1y ago

I'm actually considering buying myself an iPhone for the first time. I have basically two priorities when buying an phone: 1. Freedom. I should be able to build and run apps on it without the platform holder having a barrier on it. 2. Privacy. The phone shouldn't be an object to track me for better ad sales or any other purpose. Of course, priority 1 has until recently always led to Android while priority 2 has always led to Apple. But with the upcoming announced changes where google is going to require registration and signing for even third party sideloaded apps, while at the same time the EU is forcing Apple to open up and allow sideloading, it seems pretty clear that in the near future both Apple and Google's policies regarding point 1 are going to converge. On a position less free than Android has hitherto been, and less free than I would like, but unfortunately they are the two options on the market. So with priority 1 no longer a differentiating factor, it comes down to priority 2. I've used both Android and iOS over the years, as while my personal phones have always been Android, my employer provided phones have always been iOS. I think I do prefer the Android user experience and have used enough of both that that's not just a factor of which I'm accustomed to, but it's also not the huge difference it once was for a lot of apps. Right now I'm using a Pixel 7 Pro and I might weigh sitting it out another year, but my USB-C port is failing and I'm also watching the pixel battery issues creep up the model range to newer and newer models...

timwis 1y ago
Well said! I share those two priorities, and am now moving in the inverse direction, but I plan to use GrapheneOS.
fsflover 1y ago
It seems you are searching for Librem 5 (my daily driver). It runs PureOS (a Debian derivative) and turns into a desktop when connected to a screen and keyboard.
- Macha 1y ago
  It doesn't run my banks' apps so it can't be more than a secondary device for playing around.
  - fsflover 1y ago
    Many bank apps can work with Waydroid. If your bank forces you to use the duopoly, you should switch the bank and complain to regulators.
  - smlavine 1y ago
    Out of curiosity, how often do you use your bank's app? I don't have my bank's app on my phone. Pretty much nobody ever gives me paper checks, and all of my employers have strongly encouraged/required direct deposit as part of the usual onboarding process. If I want to check balance or move between checking/savings, I use their website. I have a debit card, and my (Android) phone has tap-to-pay built-in.
    - pertymcpert 1y ago
      Millions of people in the US use their banking online apps. A lot of people don’t own a computer at all, just a mobile device.
      - viraptor 1y ago
        You can still use the bank website on the phone.
        sillyfluke 1y ago
        This is where iphones are a risk actually. Android webapps on old phones with their original OS installed have a better chance of working compared to old iphones with their original iOS version. This is both due to Apple's continued stubborness in keeping Safari releases tied to iOS releases (eg. "to get the banana you need the gorilla holding the banana and the entire rainforest the gorilla lives in...") and the dominance of Chromium browsers in webapp testing. On old Android phones it's easier to install newer browsers without having to update the OS. Edit: your comment is also not valid on occasion. I've recently witnessed some banking mobile webapps being broken for long periods of time and one bank that decided to remove the agreement approval function from their webapp, forcing you to download the app in order to approve updated agreements.
wiredpancake 1y ago
[dead]
m463 1y ago
Thing is, privacy with apple is a marketing term. if apple offered actual privacy, you could: - find out what/when apps are running - find out who they are talking to - prevent it, including apple if you want and apple has all kinds of nonsense like deep links (apps can intercept links), bluetooth beacons (apps can talk to stuff in a store/location), and lots of other stuff behind the scenes. You can't find out if it is in use.
- illiac786 1y ago
  It’s like in politics, it’s not about absolute, it’s all relative. What is the least worse option in terms of privacy, when comparing apple and google? I think there’s a broad consensus it’s apple. But let’s not call it the “best” option please. You can go with something else than google and apple, they are not an inevitability. Alternate OSes offer significantly more freedom and privacy.
- gertop 1y ago
  > find out what/when apps are running How do you do that on Android? You can inspect the manifest to see some triggers, but an app can set more triggers when it first launches. Task managers have been killed by Google about 10 years ago and it's impossible to see that's running in real time. If you enable developer mode you can kind of see a partial list of what's currently running I guess, is that what you're talking about?
- catgirlinspace 1y ago
  If you go to Settings > Privacy & Security > App Privacy Report you can see domains contacted by an app, which apps contact a specific domain, and data and sensor access logs. Can also export it as a JSON file. I think the data and sensor access logs is a newer feature since I don’t think I’ve seen it before, but network activity has been in there for at least a few years. The network activity is also only domains and ip addresses, nothing about protocol or what data was sent unfortunately. https://support.apple.com/en-us/102188 https://support.apple.com/en-us/102188
  - m463 1y ago
msk-lywenn 1y ago
Battery and USB-C ports can easily be changed. You don't need to change the whole thing to fix that. Just like you don't buy a new car when you have a flat tire or broken AC.
- zuhsetaqi 1y ago
  The comparison is a bit off. A replacement battery as a part alone does cost more than 10 % of a completely new Pixel 7 Pro. So definitely not comparable with a cars flat tire or broken AC...
  - NuclearPM 1y ago
    There a tens of millions of cars on the road worth less than 10x that of a broken AC repair cost.
krzat 1y ago
Funny that EU made iPhones more compelling by enforcing USB-C and side loading.
nicbou 1y ago
My Pixel 5 made me switch to iOS after a software update made it unusable. A year later, the iPhone mostly gets out of my way. However the keyboard and browser options are artificially limited. I can't easily set my own search engine on Safari either. Ad blocking works fine though. The hardware is the best I've had in years. Battery life is really good. Airdrop and Airplay are very useful, as are many other small features. I have come to prefer the iOS experience, but don't expect a life changing upgrade, just a longer-lasting phone.
- whatevaa 1y ago
  You can't set a search engine on mobile safari?
pachico 1y ago
I wasn't aware about how bad the situation was for devices, in general, about privacy until I installed a Pi-Hole in a Raspberry and used it as DNS service at home. It's really surprising the amount of data that tries to leave the premises, and this just the one that I block with a mid-range security ban list.
meetpatelcurry 1y ago
[dead]
fluidcruft 1y ago
Has something changed in the Apple ecosystem to put item one anywhere near the table? Let's be very clear here: all Google has announced so far is that installing apps from anonymous builds is going to be taken away and only if you want your phone to be considered "certified". Let's not get drawn too far into hysteria.
- homebrewer 1y ago
  In some regions of the world a phone that is not considered "certified" by Google is only useful as a paperweight. For example, I wouldn't be able to interact with government services or use any banking with such a phone. (Notice the any and with — no, I can't switch to another bank except by emigrating somewhere, and banks are only available as mobile applications. No web.) So unless you're willing (and can afford!) to buy and carry multiple phones, the new severely downgraded Android is about as open as iPhone, but with zero expectation of it respecting your privacy.
  - fluidcruft 1y ago
    Or... you just register with Google and sign things using your own keys to authorize them before sideloading. Or setup an LLC or whatever and register that entity with Google or whatever.
    - ikety 1y ago
      That’s already annoying and the same process as ios currently
      - fluidcruft 1y ago
        iOS requires XCode (only available on MacOS computers) so that's at least one difference
    - whatevaa 1y ago
      Nobody is going to setup LLC to sideload shii.
BrawnyBadger53 1y ago
I'm in the exact same position down to the Pixel 7 pro. It feels like my options are either to move to graphene os or move to iOS. But grapheneos seems like it'll cause headaches that I am not that interested in dealing with, however my wish to escape vertical integration which plagues tech ecosystems still tempts me.
matrix87 1y ago
> but my USB-C port is failing I'm having the same issue with my pixel 8 (along with the screen randomly turning green out of nowhere, so I have to "ground" the display to get it to work again) In general the 8 feels a lot more cheaply made than the 6 I agree that the android UX is better than apple (or at least, it makes more sense to me). But I'd consider moving to iphone for build quality alone

by Macha 1y ago

timwis 1y ago

Well said! I share those two priorities, and am now moving in the inverse direction, but I plan to use GrapheneOS.

fsflover 1y ago

It seems you are searching for Librem 5 (my daily driver). It runs PureOS (a Debian derivative) and turns into a desktop when connected to a screen and keyboard.

Macha 1y ago
It doesn't run my banks' apps so it can't be more than a secondary device for playing around.
- fsflover 1y ago
  Many bank apps can work with Waydroid. If your bank forces you to use the duopoly, you should switch the bank and complain to regulators.
- smlavine 1y ago
  Out of curiosity, how often do you use your bank's app? I don't have my bank's app on my phone. Pretty much nobody ever gives me paper checks, and all of my employers have strongly encouraged/required direct deposit as part of the usual onboarding process. If I want to check balance or move between checking/savings, I use their website. I have a debit card, and my (Android) phone has tap-to-pay built-in.
  - pertymcpert 1y ago
    Millions of people in the US use their banking online apps. A lot of people don’t own a computer at all, just a mobile device.
    - viraptor 1y ago
      You can still use the bank website on the phone.
      - sillyfluke 1y ago
        This is where iphones are a risk actually. Android webapps on old phones with their original OS installed have a better chance of working compared to old iphones with their original iOS version. This is both due to Apple's continued stubborness in keeping Safari releases tied to iOS releases (eg. "to get the banana you need the gorilla holding the banana and the entire rainforest the gorilla lives in...") and the dominance of Chromium browsers in webapp testing. On old Android phones it's easier to install newer browsers without having to update the OS. Edit: your comment is also not valid on occasion. I've recently witnessed some banking mobile webapps being broken for long periods of time and one bank that decided to remove the agreement approval function from their webapp, forcing you to download the app in order to approve updated agreements.

wiredpancake 1y ago

[dead]

m463 1y ago

Thing is, privacy with apple is a marketing term. if apple offered actual privacy, you could: - find out what/when apps are running - find out who they are talking to - prevent it, including apple if you want and apple has all kinds of nonsense like deep links (apps can intercept links), bluetooth beacons (apps can talk to stuff in a store/location), and lots of other stuff behind the scenes. You can't find out if it is in use.

illiac786 1y ago
It’s like in politics, it’s not about absolute, it’s all relative. What is the least worse option in terms of privacy, when comparing apple and google? I think there’s a broad consensus it’s apple. But let’s not call it the “best” option please. You can go with something else than google and apple, they are not an inevitability. Alternate OSes offer significantly more freedom and privacy.
gertop 1y ago
> find out what/when apps are running How do you do that on Android? You can inspect the manifest to see some triggers, but an app can set more triggers when it first launches. Task managers have been killed by Google about 10 years ago and it's impossible to see that's running in real time. If you enable developer mode you can kind of see a partial list of what's currently running I guess, is that what you're talking about?
catgirlinspace 1y ago
If you go to Settings > Privacy & Security > App Privacy Report you can see domains contacted by an app, which apps contact a specific domain, and data and sensor access logs. Can also export it as a JSON file. I think the data and sensor access logs is a newer feature since I don’t think I’ve seen it before, but network activity has been in there for at least a few years. The network activity is also only domains and ip addresses, nothing about protocol or what data was sent unfortunately. https://support.apple.com/en-us/102188 https://support.apple.com/en-us/102188
- m463 1y ago

msk-lywenn 1y ago

Battery and USB-C ports can easily be changed. You don't need to change the whole thing to fix that. Just like you don't buy a new car when you have a flat tire or broken AC.

zuhsetaqi 1y ago
The comparison is a bit off. A replacement battery as a part alone does cost more than 10 % of a completely new Pixel 7 Pro. So definitely not comparable with a cars flat tire or broken AC...
- NuclearPM 1y ago
  There a tens of millions of cars on the road worth less than 10x that of a broken AC repair cost.

krzat 1y ago

Funny that EU made iPhones more compelling by enforcing USB-C and side loading.

nicbou 1y ago

My Pixel 5 made me switch to iOS after a software update made it unusable. A year later, the iPhone mostly gets out of my way. However the keyboard and browser options are artificially limited. I can't easily set my own search engine on Safari either. Ad blocking works fine though. The hardware is the best I've had in years. Battery life is really good. Airdrop and Airplay are very useful, as are many other small features. I have come to prefer the iOS experience, but don't expect a life changing upgrade, just a longer-lasting phone.

whatevaa 1y ago
You can't set a search engine on mobile safari?

pachico 1y ago

I wasn't aware about how bad the situation was for devices, in general, about privacy until I installed a Pi-Hole in a Raspberry and used it as DNS service at home. It's really surprising the amount of data that tries to leave the premises, and this just the one that I block with a mid-range security ban list.

meetpatelcurry 1y ago

[dead]

fluidcruft 1y ago

Has something changed in the Apple ecosystem to put item one anywhere near the table? Let's be very clear here: all Google has announced so far is that installing apps from anonymous builds is going to be taken away and only if you want your phone to be considered "certified". Let's not get drawn too far into hysteria.

homebrewer 1y ago
In some regions of the world a phone that is not considered "certified" by Google is only useful as a paperweight. For example, I wouldn't be able to interact with government services or use any banking with such a phone. (Notice the any and with — no, I can't switch to another bank except by emigrating somewhere, and banks are only available as mobile applications. No web.) So unless you're willing (and can afford!) to buy and carry multiple phones, the new severely downgraded Android is about as open as iPhone, but with zero expectation of it respecting your privacy.
- fluidcruft 1y ago
  Or... you just register with Google and sign things using your own keys to authorize them before sideloading. Or setup an LLC or whatever and register that entity with Google or whatever.
  - ikety 1y ago
    That’s already annoying and the same process as ios currently
    - fluidcruft 1y ago
      iOS requires XCode (only available on MacOS computers) so that's at least one difference
  - whatevaa 1y ago
    Nobody is going to setup LLC to sideload shii.

BrawnyBadger53 1y ago

I'm in the exact same position down to the Pixel 7 pro. It feels like my options are either to move to graphene os or move to iOS. But grapheneos seems like it'll cause headaches that I am not that interested in dealing with, however my wish to escape vertical integration which plagues tech ecosystems still tempts me.

matrix87 1y ago

> but my USB-C port is failing I'm having the same issue with my pixel 8 (along with the screen randomly turning green out of nowhere, so I have to "ground" the display to get it to work again) In general the 8 feels a lot more cheaply made than the 6 I agree that the android UX is better than apple (or at least, it makes more sense to me). But I'd consider moving to iphone for build quality alone