14 ms·

PayPal Set to Suspend Domestic Transactions in Argentina

64 points by jp_sc 14y ago

jstalin 14y ago
I have friends and family in Argentina and the pace of economic deterioration is quickening.
- csomar 14y ago
  Could you elaborate more? I thought Argentina was doing well from the financial side.
  - yeahsure 14y ago
    I live in Argentina. Since October 2011 the government has been enacting new legislation almost weekly to restrict citizens access to US dollars, as well as tightening tax control to an almost ridiculous level. Also, for the last couple of years the government has been restricting imports, specially if companies refuse to export something (for example, Porsche is exporting peanuts so it can bring cars into the country). Apple for example refused, so none of their products can enter the country. The only Apple store in my city closed shop a few months ago. Finally, inflation is rampant (around 25% annually) but the government denies it and so it can collect more taxes since salaries are going up every year and more people fall into high-income tax brakets. In a nutshell, the economy is not that bad, but the government keeps screwing up and everyone can see we're going down. There are country-wide protests right now, here you can see them: http://tn.com.ar/envivo/24hs http://tn.com.ar/envivo/24hs
    - ramoncito 14y ago
      I totally agree. I live here and I cannot travel abroad anymore, since the government does not allow me to buy any foreign currency. I collect payments from US using Paypal, in dollars, but I receive pesos here. There is a lot of corruption. The president said, on TV, that the people must be afraid of her. There are a lot of products that are not available anymore, for example, pacemakers (a relative of mine needs a new one and, at the moment, there are none available). A picture of the protests of today: http://sphotos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/c99.0.403.403/p403x403/383362_526614650687462_165775346_n.jpg http://sphotos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/c99.0.403.403/...
- loboman 14y ago
  I live in Argentina and I agree. It is becoming a bad place to live in, sadly. Edit: let me add, Argentina is great, there are great people creating companies or doing amazing stuff; but the general climate for doing anything good is becoming terrible. If you want to do anything as an Argentinian, you have to fight against lots of obstacles, or you have to emigrate. It is really sad. Argentinian entrepreneurs are survivors of some of the craziest stuff you can imagine.
- leothekim 14y ago
  This is a real shame. When I visited in 2004, which was a couple years after the last big economic crisis hit there, things were starting to look up. There was a bit of entrepreneurship among the younger Argentinians I met, particularly in Mendoza and Buenos Aires where many were trying to start businesses, though that might be because there weren't many alternatives. Also, there's great agricultural export potential - Argentinian beef and wine are fantastic, but for some reason you can't really find much of that on U.S. shelves. The country itself is beautiful to visit, and it was pretty cheap for an American to get around (as it probably is now). Still all was not good. A lot of families were taking on boarders to make ends meet, and corruption was pretty rampant. The general sense I got was that, if the politicians only got their shit together, the country would be better off.
jrockway 14y ago
Does PayPal have offices in Argentina? If not, why does following the law matter?
- aristidb 14y ago
  The USA do things like reroute planes for that purpose. I suppose Argentina can't do that so easily.
- InclinedPlane 14y ago
  Do you imagine that PayPal should take violating the law in Argentina lightly? Let's follow that thread all the way through, shall we? So, PayPal begins ignoring the laws of Argentina while continuing to operate there. The Argentine government then forces all of the local banks to close out all of PayPal's local financial instruments (bank accounts, etc.) blocking them from doing business in Argentina and effectively confiscating money belonging to PayPal and its customers. Next, PayPal and its executives and agents are put on trial in Argentina, convicted, and those folks can no longer visit Argentina or any other country that has an extradition treaty with Argentina. Meanwhile, other countries take notice that PayPal does not seem to care about abiding by the laws of local sovereign states and PayPal finds it harder and harder to do business with any country, and finds itself increasingly locked out of countries. This is in no way a sound business strategy.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
rafaelm 14y ago
We have had the same restrictions in Venezuela since 2003. Venezuelans cannot freely spend their hard earned money abroad without jumping through a series of ridiculous government loops just to be able to spend $400 a year online and $2500/year if you travel. All this does is create an artificial currency value and a rampant black market. The official value is Bs. 4.3 per dollar. The black market value is Bs.10.5 per dollar. You can imagine what this does for the inflation in a country that does not produce anything else apart from oil. That is why we have an annual inflation rate of around 27% (cannot look it up, I'm on my phone.) We basically have a 'port economy',where everything is imported, with no incentives towards increasing local production and manufacturing. Add to that a government that is consistently destroying and confiscating private enterprises and you do the math.
- mey 14y ago
  http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=USD+to+ARS http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=USD+to+ARS It appears that external exchanges are giving 4.66 per dollar. If you examine the exchange history, the increases started ~2009 and may hit 5.00 in 6 months.
- cynwoody 14y ago
  You need to pursue a Mussolini solution. By which I mean, not what Mussolini did to Italy, but what the Italians did to Mussolini after Patton liberated them.
robomartin 14y ago
Argentina has great people. It also has a culture of horribly corrupt and self-serving governments. The name of the game, if you are in government, is to cheat, lie and steal. Every one of those fuckers has nicely padded bank accounts out of the country somewhere. The've robbed that country out of so much it is hard to describe. I lived there for many years. I saw it first hand. I also became aware of the history and how corruption and manipulation has been a core part of governmental culture. In conversations with friends I can't help but draw parallels between what has happened in Argentina over the decades and what happens in the US. One of the most famous examples of government manipulation and vote-buying was when Evita (way back when) would show-up at neighborhoods and hand out bikes, refrigerators, blenders, etc. to the population. Of course, they were buying votes. Same with their "sindicatos" (unions) and other groups. These governments have used the guise of socialism (down with the rich, etc.) to drum-up popular support and remain in power. The reality is that most of them should probably have been tried and thrown into prison for treason. In the US the Democratic party exhibits some of these traits. The corruption in places like Argentina is very obvert. It's amazing how everyone knows about it and it is very much a matter of daily national conversation. Here in the US it used to be more subtle. Not now. Democrats openly channel benefits towards government and private unions as a way to buy their votes. If a being from another planet landed in the US and listened to Obama speak it would conclude that the only important people in this nation are "teachers, police, firemen and construction workers". Why? Because that is all he mentions in his speeches. Translated: "union, union, union, union". If you succeed in buying union ("sindicato" in Argentina) votes you are buying the votes of their immediate family as well as all union retirees. That amounts to millions upon millions of people. Brilliant, if you think about it. It goes far deeper than this. The Argentinian goverment figured this out a long time ago. Create class divisions. Get those on the dole worked-up about those with money. This guarantees millions of easy votes and you remain in power. It is also easy when this ideology permeates colleges and universities and kids come out of school actually believing this shit. If you are a college or university graduate, pull way back, realize that you may have been subject to indoctrination and try to see the world for what it actually is before parroting what your radical professors told you. What's sad about this is that, both here and in Argentina, it all comes at the expense of the country in general. Those in power remain in power and live the good life (Another vacation or golf trip Mr. Obama?) and truly live outside of the realities of the country. The masses get their blenders, bikes, refrigerators, playstations, bonuses, etc. and buy into the idea that they are being oppressed by everyone and are entitled to take from everyone in order to live. The country goes to hell and nobody wins. Our kids will have to deal with the real consequences of this mess. Argentina is a warning to everyone in the world. Watch and learn. See what can happen when government goes wild and acts not for the benefit of the entire country but for themselves and nobody else. Manipulating the masses is a tried-and-true way to acquire votes with few, if any, real consequences after the fact. I have friends who still live there. Some have businesses and are terrified. Some are doctors and are living from paycheck to paycheck --if they get paid at all. Nearly every Argentinian has stories of someone getting held-up, sometimes at gun-point, when coming or leaving home or going about their daily life. The government does nothing. And, in fact, a lot of these criminal elements end-up being the voting masses that support them (living in favela-type encamptments all over the place). It's amazing to see people who live like shit support the very party that keeps them there. In the US that's welfare recipients. Legalized vote buying. How many welfare recipients do you think ever vote Republican? How many people in Argentina do you think vote for political parties who will take away their entitlements and put them to work for their own benefit and that of the country. Right. The solutions to these problems can only evolve internally. In Argentina I am afraid that it might be so far gone that only a major event, such as nation-wide unrest and an ousting of the government can ever hope to find a solution. This wouldn't be the first time this would happen over there. In the US it is still thankfully quite civilized. All you have to do is be intelligent about how you vote and things can change. As a Libertarian I have to make a choice between two parties that don't quite represent me. So, in many ways, it is about the lesser evil. Casting a vote for a Libertarian candidate would, at this juncture, be irresponsible. Casting a vote for the Democratic candidate would be even worst. The last thing this country needs is more union workers earning $300K for life when they retire. I could not, in good conscience, saddle my kids and the generation after them with that ridiculous burden. And, while I don't necessarily agree with all of the Republican platform (I'm an heterosexual atheist and don't have issues with gays at all) I must cast my vote in their favor. I, for one, would really like to see what a real businessman could do with the mess we have created in the US over the last fifty years. Obama was an exciting bet in 2008. In retrospect, the guy wasn't even qualified to run a cookie baking operation, much less an entire country. We made a mistake. I hope we all fix it in November.
runako 14y ago
Earlier this year, The Economist dropped official Argentine statistics from its compilations for being unbelievable: http://www.economist.com/node/21548242 http://www.economist.com/node/21548242
Uchikoma 14y ago
Funny how people here still keep suggesting Argentina is the way for Greece.
- Uchikoma 14y ago
  Sorry, I meant Europe with "here" not HN.
  - arnnr 14y ago
    That's amazing, I thought only some tards here in greece spoke about the Argentina's way, the way of dignity, pride etc... In which country are you?

64 points by jp_sc 14y ago

jstalin 14y ago

I have friends and family in Argentina and the pace of economic deterioration is quickening.

csomar 14y ago
Could you elaborate more? I thought Argentina was doing well from the financial side.
- yeahsure 14y ago
  I live in Argentina. Since October 2011 the government has been enacting new legislation almost weekly to restrict citizens access to US dollars, as well as tightening tax control to an almost ridiculous level. Also, for the last couple of years the government has been restricting imports, specially if companies refuse to export something (for example, Porsche is exporting peanuts so it can bring cars into the country). Apple for example refused, so none of their products can enter the country. The only Apple store in my city closed shop a few months ago. Finally, inflation is rampant (around 25% annually) but the government denies it and so it can collect more taxes since salaries are going up every year and more people fall into high-income tax brakets. In a nutshell, the economy is not that bad, but the government keeps screwing up and everyone can see we're going down. There are country-wide protests right now, here you can see them: http://tn.com.ar/envivo/24hs http://tn.com.ar/envivo/24hs
  - ramoncito 14y ago
    I totally agree. I live here and I cannot travel abroad anymore, since the government does not allow me to buy any foreign currency. I collect payments from US using Paypal, in dollars, but I receive pesos here. There is a lot of corruption. The president said, on TV, that the people must be afraid of her. There are a lot of products that are not available anymore, for example, pacemakers (a relative of mine needs a new one and, at the moment, there are none available). A picture of the protests of today: http://sphotos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/c99.0.403.403/p403x403/383362_526614650687462_165775346_n.jpg http://sphotos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/c99.0.403.403/...
loboman 14y ago
I live in Argentina and I agree. It is becoming a bad place to live in, sadly. Edit: let me add, Argentina is great, there are great people creating companies or doing amazing stuff; but the general climate for doing anything good is becoming terrible. If you want to do anything as an Argentinian, you have to fight against lots of obstacles, or you have to emigrate. It is really sad. Argentinian entrepreneurs are survivors of some of the craziest stuff you can imagine.
leothekim 14y ago
This is a real shame. When I visited in 2004, which was a couple years after the last big economic crisis hit there, things were starting to look up. There was a bit of entrepreneurship among the younger Argentinians I met, particularly in Mendoza and Buenos Aires where many were trying to start businesses, though that might be because there weren't many alternatives. Also, there's great agricultural export potential - Argentinian beef and wine are fantastic, but for some reason you can't really find much of that on U.S. shelves. The country itself is beautiful to visit, and it was pretty cheap for an American to get around (as it probably is now). Still all was not good. A lot of families were taking on boarders to make ends meet, and corruption was pretty rampant. The general sense I got was that, if the politicians only got their shit together, the country would be better off.

jrockway 14y ago

Does PayPal have offices in Argentina? If not, why does following the law matter?

aristidb 14y ago
The USA do things like reroute planes for that purpose. I suppose Argentina can't do that so easily.
InclinedPlane 14y ago
Do you imagine that PayPal should take violating the law in Argentina lightly? Let's follow that thread all the way through, shall we? So, PayPal begins ignoring the laws of Argentina while continuing to operate there. The Argentine government then forces all of the local banks to close out all of PayPal's local financial instruments (bank accounts, etc.) blocking them from doing business in Argentina and effectively confiscating money belonging to PayPal and its customers. Next, PayPal and its executives and agents are put on trial in Argentina, convicted, and those folks can no longer visit Argentina or any other country that has an extradition treaty with Argentina. Meanwhile, other countries take notice that PayPal does not seem to care about abiding by the laws of local sovereign states and PayPal finds it harder and harder to do business with any country, and finds itself increasingly locked out of countries. This is in no way a sound business strategy.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

rafaelm 14y ago

We have had the same restrictions in Venezuela since 2003. Venezuelans cannot freely spend their hard earned money abroad without jumping through a series of ridiculous government loops just to be able to spend $400 a year online and $2500/year if you travel. All this does is create an artificial currency value and a rampant black market. The official value is Bs. 4.3 per dollar. The black market value is Bs.10.5 per dollar. You can imagine what this does for the inflation in a country that does not produce anything else apart from oil. That is why we have an annual inflation rate of around 27% (cannot look it up, I'm on my phone.) We basically have a 'port economy',where everything is imported, with no incentives towards increasing local production and manufacturing. Add to that a government that is consistently destroying and confiscating private enterprises and you do the math.

mey 14y ago
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=USD+to+ARS http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=USD+to+ARS It appears that external exchanges are giving 4.66 per dollar. If you examine the exchange history, the increases started ~2009 and may hit 5.00 in 6 months.
cynwoody 14y ago
You need to pursue a Mussolini solution. By which I mean, not what Mussolini did to Italy, but what the Italians did to Mussolini after Patton liberated them.

robomartin 14y ago

Argentina has great people. It also has a culture of horribly corrupt and self-serving governments. The name of the game, if you are in government, is to cheat, lie and steal. Every one of those fuckers has nicely padded bank accounts out of the country somewhere. The've robbed that country out of so much it is hard to describe. I lived there for many years. I saw it first hand. I also became aware of the history and how corruption and manipulation has been a core part of governmental culture. In conversations with friends I can't help but draw parallels between what has happened in Argentina over the decades and what happens in the US. One of the most famous examples of government manipulation and vote-buying was when Evita (way back when) would show-up at neighborhoods and hand out bikes, refrigerators, blenders, etc. to the population. Of course, they were buying votes. Same with their "sindicatos" (unions) and other groups. These governments have used the guise of socialism (down with the rich, etc.) to drum-up popular support and remain in power. The reality is that most of them should probably have been tried and thrown into prison for treason. In the US the Democratic party exhibits some of these traits. The corruption in places like Argentina is very obvert. It's amazing how everyone knows about it and it is very much a matter of daily national conversation. Here in the US it used to be more subtle. Not now. Democrats openly channel benefits towards government and private unions as a way to buy their votes. If a being from another planet landed in the US and listened to Obama speak it would conclude that the only important people in this nation are "teachers, police, firemen and construction workers". Why? Because that is all he mentions in his speeches. Translated: "union, union, union, union". If you succeed in buying union ("sindicato" in Argentina) votes you are buying the votes of their immediate family as well as all union retirees. That amounts to millions upon millions of people. Brilliant, if you think about it. It goes far deeper than this. The Argentinian goverment figured this out a long time ago. Create class divisions. Get those on the dole worked-up about those with money. This guarantees millions of easy votes and you remain in power. It is also easy when this ideology permeates colleges and universities and kids come out of school actually believing this shit. If you are a college or university graduate, pull way back, realize that you may have been subject to indoctrination and try to see the world for what it actually is before parroting what your radical professors told you. What's sad about this is that, both here and in Argentina, it all comes at the expense of the country in general. Those in power remain in power and live the good life (Another vacation or golf trip Mr. Obama?) and truly live outside of the realities of the country. The masses get their blenders, bikes, refrigerators, playstations, bonuses, etc. and buy into the idea that they are being oppressed by everyone and are entitled to take from everyone in order to live. The country goes to hell and nobody wins. Our kids will have to deal with the real consequences of this mess. Argentina is a warning to everyone in the world. Watch and learn. See what can happen when government goes wild and acts not for the benefit of the entire country but for themselves and nobody else. Manipulating the masses is a tried-and-true way to acquire votes with few, if any, real consequences after the fact. I have friends who still live there. Some have businesses and are terrified. Some are doctors and are living from paycheck to paycheck --if they get paid at all. Nearly every Argentinian has stories of someone getting held-up, sometimes at gun-point, when coming or leaving home or going about their daily life. The government does nothing. And, in fact, a lot of these criminal elements end-up being the voting masses that support them (living in favela-type encamptments all over the place). It's amazing to see people who live like shit support the very party that keeps them there. In the US that's welfare recipients. Legalized vote buying. How many welfare recipients do you think ever vote Republican? How many people in Argentina do you think vote for political parties who will take away their entitlements and put them to work for their own benefit and that of the country. Right. The solutions to these problems can only evolve internally. In Argentina I am afraid that it might be so far gone that only a major event, such as nation-wide unrest and an ousting of the government can ever hope to find a solution. This wouldn't be the first time this would happen over there. In the US it is still thankfully quite civilized. All you have to do is be intelligent about how you vote and things can change. As a Libertarian I have to make a choice between two parties that don't quite represent me. So, in many ways, it is about the lesser evil. Casting a vote for a Libertarian candidate would, at this juncture, be irresponsible. Casting a vote for the Democratic candidate would be even worst. The last thing this country needs is more union workers earning $300K for life when they retire. I could not, in good conscience, saddle my kids and the generation after them with that ridiculous burden. And, while I don't necessarily agree with all of the Republican platform (I'm an heterosexual atheist and don't have issues with gays at all) I must cast my vote in their favor. I, for one, would really like to see what a real businessman could do with the mess we have created in the US over the last fifty years. Obama was an exciting bet in 2008. In retrospect, the guy wasn't even qualified to run a cookie baking operation, much less an entire country. We made a mistake. I hope we all fix it in November.

runako 14y ago

Earlier this year, The Economist dropped official Argentine statistics from its compilations for being unbelievable: http://www.economist.com/node/21548242 http://www.economist.com/node/21548242

Uchikoma 14y ago

Funny how people here still keep suggesting Argentina is the way for Greece.

Uchikoma 14y ago
Sorry, I meant Europe with "here" not HN.
- arnnr 14y ago
  That's amazing, I thought only some tards here in greece spoke about the Argentina's way, the way of dignity, pride etc... In which country are you?