5 ms·

The problem is that these people are very loud on the internet but sales for small phones are abysmal. The laptop class (myself included) just don't understand

The problem is that these people are very loud on the internet but sales for small phones are abysmal. The laptop class (myself included) just don't understand. A huge portion of the world only has 1 computer and it's their phone. They rely on it for work, entertainment, and connectivity. They don't have a laptop where they can do all these things on whenever they want. Their phone is it. They want a big screen phone. It's no surprise that every time Apple made the screen bigger, it sold better. I loved my 13 Mini but I understand why Apple has given up on it. It was a very good effort. They tried. Didn't sell. Maybe a foldable can solve this problem for both sides.

taeric 1y ago
It is a lot like demand for spacious pockets in fashionable clothing. People largely think you can get that with no tradeoff on anything regarding the clothes. And, you just can't. So, for phones, people say they want a small one to fit in your pocket. With, fair. But that generally means a smaller screen when you are using it. Which people don't really want. Foldables help a ton with this. And I think that will ultimately pan out. People are understandably worried about being early on that train, though.
- dwedge 1y ago
  Foldables are weird at the moment, they are bulky and the aspect ratio (because it's a square) means that the viewable screen is often comparable to the S24 for example.
qafy 1y ago
exactly. the only reason the 13 mini even existed at all is because it was too late to cancel the model entirely when the absolutely abysmal sales numbers for the 12 mini finally rolled in. my partner absolutely loves her 13 mini, but agreed its a very vocal minority
hedgehog 1y ago
They didn't put the good cameras in the Minis so it wasn't really a good experiment. I don't want a cheaper phone, just a smaller one. The improved camera is the only reason I upgraded past the 1st gen SE.
- mrexroad 1y ago
  This. While I’m still using the mini form factor—incidentally, as are most of my friends—I long for a better camera.
  - scyzoryk_xyz 1y ago
    If this was a bet my money would be that they release "minis" every say 3-4 years - the current 13 mini is within lifecycle imo
    - Braini 1y ago
      Well one can only hope so. It has maybe 2 good years left, would be nice to get a new one at some point.
- Uupis 1y ago
  They also made the displays have some weird scaling factor that caused an annoying bloom in dark mode. Took me a while to realize why it felt off, even though the form factor was right up my alley.
dwedge 1y ago
I wonder if there isn't a market for budget Androids in this range. Personally I have an Oppo Asomething that was around $50. I'd pay more for a smaller version which would probably have slightly better performance. > A huge portion of the world only has 1 computer and it's their phone. This is something that really surprised me to realise a couple of years ago - that unless they work in tech, most households (I don't know if most isn't an exaggeration, but a large proportion) don't have a laptop or desktop between them now.
- coldpie 1y ago
  > I wonder if there isn't a market for budget Androids in this range. I think there is: https://smallandroidphone.com/ https://smallandroidphone.com/ This was started up by the people behind Pebble (including its re-launch this year). I actually emailed them a while back asking for a status update. They told me there are literally no high quality screens of an appropriate size available to OEMs. They would have to design & spin up their own display hardware, which is where things change from "expensive" to "infeasible." If there was an existing, high quality 4.5~5" screen, I think it'd be an easy slam dunk. But there apparently is not... Too bad. I just hold out hope Apple will try the Mini again before my 13 dies.
- aurareturn 1y ago
  This is something that really surprised me to realise a couple of years ago - that unless they work in tech, most households (I don't know if most isn't an exaggeration, but a large proportion) don't have a laptop or desktop between them now. There was a joke I saw recently where Millenials have to teach Gen Z employees how to use a computer like they do for a boomer. Gen Z people, especially the younger ones, do everything on their phones or tablets. They don't know how to use a computer like Windows or a Mac. Also, I've been in poorer countries where the vast majority of the population rely on their phones to work. My real estate agent only used her phone for work including marketing herself, talking to clients on chat apps, and even doing the lease contract. Their phone is literally how they make a living.
  - hn_acc1 1y ago
dullcrisp 1y ago
Apple makes at least some products that only the laptop class uses.
cosmic_cheese 1y ago
Most likely, the market for a small phone from a mainstream manufacturer is more than strong enough to sustain itself and even be profitable. The real culprit here is that there’s been a shift in the industry — it’s not enough for products to “just” make a profit, they now have to also be smash hits and money printers. Niche audiences may as well not exist, no matter how dedicated they may be, everything must target the masses.
- aurareturn 1y ago
  I think Apple discontinued the Mini line because it's a bit like new software features makes the code harder to maintain over time. Every time Apple introduces a new generation of iPhones, they'd have to figure out how to make the upgrades fit in a much smaller chassis.
  - cosmic_cheese 1y ago
    I would expect the opposite, given continued miniaturazation, consolidation of functions into the SoC, and battery energy density improvements. The same advances that allow the iPhone Air to exist would also be helpful for a Mini model.
    - aurareturn 1y ago
      Chips are getting bigger physically because of the end of Moore's law. More power hungry too which means a better cooling system. Bigger camera sensors. Bigger battery. All these things rely on being physically larger.
  - layer8 1y ago
    The limiting factor for that is currently the more recent iPhone SE 3 (2022), so that argument isn't convincing. Regarding screen size, the Display Zoom resolution of the Pro Max is the same as the iPhone mini resolution, and the Display Zoom resolution of the Pro is the same as the Display Zoom resolution of the mini [0], so dropping the mini didn't actually remove any supported resolution. What's true is that the hardware design and layout is more constrained for the mini size, mostly regarding battery capacity, but I don't really see a limitation for the software. Even regarding battery capacity, the 16e has really great battery life, so a mini using similar tech should still be acceptable. [0] https://www.ricsantos.net/2021/01/21/ios-device-resolution-guide/ https://www.ricsantos.net/2021/01/21/ios-device-resolution-g...
pcthrowaway 1y ago
Personally the lifespan of my phone is much shorter when I can't easily hold it and type on it with the same hand. Inevitably I end up dropping it trying to do that anyway. So I really don't understand people who would choose a larger phone, over a smaller one and then save the money they would have spent replacing it (plus the money they would have paid extra because larger is more expensive) to buy a cheap laptop or something
- LoganDark 1y ago
  They want a bigger screen because they don't have a laptop. > save the money they would have spent replacing it (plus the money they would have paid extra because larger is more expensive) to buy a cheap laptop or something The kind of people who want an iPhone are not going to settle for a Cheap Laptop. A MacBook Air can only really be had new for around $800 nowadays and those big iPhones are only like $599 right now (if iPhone 16e).
- hn_acc1 1y ago
  As an oldtimer (Gen-X), I can't even with that mode of use. My thumb (is that what you use?) cramps up when trying to do that even a little.. I guess 30+ years of typing will do that.. The best I've done one-handed is type in my pin and launch an app and click an icon or two. As it is, I hold my S21 with left hand, type with index finger of right - it's abysmal in terms of performance, but it's all I got.. landscape with both thumbs is usually worse because of such little lookahead / lookbehind - I can barely read the line I'm typing on - and fat thumbs. My kids do it all the time, but, well, their little girlish fingers (they are female) seem to manage it and they're quite quick at it. My favorite phone (at least in terms of idea, execution wasn't perfect) was the Motorola Photon Q - full-size with slide-out keyboard. At least I could somewhat type quickly even if the keyboard wasn't great. Alas, 2012.. With a newish phone? I can probably type 10-20x as fast on my MS Natural keyboard (only one I can use for more than 30-40 minutes without RSI getting bad).. No wonder I don't "live on my phone" - I use it when necessary, and prefer my 40"+ 4K screen + real keyboard.
- thewebguyd 1y ago
  I buy larger phones, and I don't drop them...so no money saved/lost there. I have big hands, and can use my 16 Pro Max one handed no problem with minimal shifting of the device in my hands. I've never dropped it during one handed use on the go either. Smaller devices are almost impossible for me to type on/be precise with touches because of this.
bigstrat2003 1y ago
> A huge portion of the world only has 1 computer and it's their phone. If those people wish to use phones for something they're not suited for, that's their business. But companies can, and should, have more than one product for different use cases. Nobody says "well only 5% of the market wears this size clothes so you better get used to going naked", instead manufacturers make all different sizes so as to capture more profits. I don't even particularly care if the smaller phone costs more because it's not as much in demand (so, less economy of scale). The problem is that nobody makes one at all, so I can't get what I want at any price whatsoever.
- cindyllm 1y ago
  [dead]
- eMPee584 1y ago
  a bit further down from the main stream, there are some fringe chinese manufacturers like unihertz doing small phones..
- nikanj 1y ago
  Either all phone companies are stupid and leave money on the table, or nobody buys small phones.
  - bigstrat2003 1y ago
    All phone companies are stupid and leave money on the table. This is not really in question, imo.
ahartmetz 1y ago
As a member of the desktop class, I'm fine with any size phone that fits comfortably into my pockets.
- sevenseacat 1y ago
  As a member of the female class, I wish my clothes had pockets!
  - ahartmetz 1y ago
    Even casual pants. I never realized before I got a pair of pants from a gf who couldn't wear them anymore. Zipper for the left hand (wtf) and TINY pockets. These were medium fit black corduroy pants, they had the space!
creer 1y ago
Apple is long past a minimal phone lineup. It's not a question of offering just grey or white as the only choices. I'm stuck with an ancient iphone and would upgrade if a pocket-sized one happened. Hasn't happened.
throwaway990089 1y ago
> The problem is that these people are very loud on the internet but sales for small phones are abysmal. iPhone SEs sold like hotcakes and they were smaller than the minis.
- password54321 1y ago
  The majority of people buying an iPhone SE is because it is relatively cheap not because it is small.

taeric 1y ago

It is a lot like demand for spacious pockets in fashionable clothing. People largely think you can get that with no tradeoff on anything regarding the clothes. And, you just can't. So, for phones, people say they want a small one to fit in your pocket. With, fair. But that generally means a smaller screen when you are using it. Which people don't really want. Foldables help a ton with this. And I think that will ultimately pan out. People are understandably worried about being early on that train, though.

dwedge 1y ago
Foldables are weird at the moment, they are bulky and the aspect ratio (because it's a square) means that the viewable screen is often comparable to the S24 for example.

qafy 1y ago

exactly. the only reason the 13 mini even existed at all is because it was too late to cancel the model entirely when the absolutely abysmal sales numbers for the 12 mini finally rolled in. my partner absolutely loves her 13 mini, but agreed its a very vocal minority

hedgehog 1y ago

They didn't put the good cameras in the Minis so it wasn't really a good experiment. I don't want a cheaper phone, just a smaller one. The improved camera is the only reason I upgraded past the 1st gen SE.

mrexroad 1y ago
This. While I’m still using the mini form factor—incidentally, as are most of my friends—I long for a better camera.
- scyzoryk_xyz 1y ago
  If this was a bet my money would be that they release "minis" every say 3-4 years - the current 13 mini is within lifecycle imo
  - Braini 1y ago
    Well one can only hope so. It has maybe 2 good years left, would be nice to get a new one at some point.
Uupis 1y ago
They also made the displays have some weird scaling factor that caused an annoying bloom in dark mode. Took me a while to realize why it felt off, even though the form factor was right up my alley.

dwedge 1y ago

I wonder if there isn't a market for budget Androids in this range. Personally I have an Oppo Asomething that was around $50. I'd pay more for a smaller version which would probably have slightly better performance. > A huge portion of the world only has 1 computer and it's their phone. This is something that really surprised me to realise a couple of years ago - that unless they work in tech, most households (I don't know if most isn't an exaggeration, but a large proportion) don't have a laptop or desktop between them now.

coldpie 1y ago
> I wonder if there isn't a market for budget Androids in this range. I think there is: https://smallandroidphone.com/ https://smallandroidphone.com/ This was started up by the people behind Pebble (including its re-launch this year). I actually emailed them a while back asking for a status update. They told me there are literally no high quality screens of an appropriate size available to OEMs. They would have to design & spin up their own display hardware, which is where things change from "expensive" to "infeasible." If there was an existing, high quality 4.5~5" screen, I think it'd be an easy slam dunk. But there apparently is not... Too bad. I just hold out hope Apple will try the Mini again before my 13 dies.
aurareturn 1y ago
This is something that really surprised me to realise a couple of years ago - that unless they work in tech, most households (I don't know if most isn't an exaggeration, but a large proportion) don't have a laptop or desktop between them now. There was a joke I saw recently where Millenials have to teach Gen Z employees how to use a computer like they do for a boomer. Gen Z people, especially the younger ones, do everything on their phones or tablets. They don't know how to use a computer like Windows or a Mac. Also, I've been in poorer countries where the vast majority of the population rely on their phones to work. My real estate agent only used her phone for work including marketing herself, talking to clients on chat apps, and even doing the lease contract. Their phone is literally how they make a living.
- hn_acc1 1y ago

dullcrisp 1y ago

Apple makes at least some products that only the laptop class uses.

cosmic_cheese 1y ago

Most likely, the market for a small phone from a mainstream manufacturer is more than strong enough to sustain itself and even be profitable. The real culprit here is that there’s been a shift in the industry — it’s not enough for products to “just” make a profit, they now have to also be smash hits and money printers. Niche audiences may as well not exist, no matter how dedicated they may be, everything must target the masses.

aurareturn 1y ago
I think Apple discontinued the Mini line because it's a bit like new software features makes the code harder to maintain over time. Every time Apple introduces a new generation of iPhones, they'd have to figure out how to make the upgrades fit in a much smaller chassis.
- cosmic_cheese 1y ago
  I would expect the opposite, given continued miniaturazation, consolidation of functions into the SoC, and battery energy density improvements. The same advances that allow the iPhone Air to exist would also be helpful for a Mini model.
  - aurareturn 1y ago
    Chips are getting bigger physically because of the end of Moore's law. More power hungry too which means a better cooling system. Bigger camera sensors. Bigger battery. All these things rely on being physically larger.
- layer8 1y ago
  The limiting factor for that is currently the more recent iPhone SE 3 (2022), so that argument isn't convincing. Regarding screen size, the Display Zoom resolution of the Pro Max is the same as the iPhone mini resolution, and the Display Zoom resolution of the Pro is the same as the Display Zoom resolution of the mini [0], so dropping the mini didn't actually remove any supported resolution. What's true is that the hardware design and layout is more constrained for the mini size, mostly regarding battery capacity, but I don't really see a limitation for the software. Even regarding battery capacity, the 16e has really great battery life, so a mini using similar tech should still be acceptable. [0] https://www.ricsantos.net/2021/01/21/ios-device-resolution-guide/ https://www.ricsantos.net/2021/01/21/ios-device-resolution-g...

pcthrowaway 1y ago

Personally the lifespan of my phone is much shorter when I can't easily hold it and type on it with the same hand. Inevitably I end up dropping it trying to do that anyway. So I really don't understand people who would choose a larger phone, over a smaller one and then save the money they would have spent replacing it (plus the money they would have paid extra because larger is more expensive) to buy a cheap laptop or something

LoganDark 1y ago
They want a bigger screen because they don't have a laptop. > save the money they would have spent replacing it (plus the money they would have paid extra because larger is more expensive) to buy a cheap laptop or something The kind of people who want an iPhone are not going to settle for a Cheap Laptop. A MacBook Air can only really be had new for around $800 nowadays and those big iPhones are only like $599 right now (if iPhone 16e).
hn_acc1 1y ago
As an oldtimer (Gen-X), I can't even with that mode of use. My thumb (is that what you use?) cramps up when trying to do that even a little.. I guess 30+ years of typing will do that.. The best I've done one-handed is type in my pin and launch an app and click an icon or two. As it is, I hold my S21 with left hand, type with index finger of right - it's abysmal in terms of performance, but it's all I got.. landscape with both thumbs is usually worse because of such little lookahead / lookbehind - I can barely read the line I'm typing on - and fat thumbs. My kids do it all the time, but, well, their little girlish fingers (they are female) seem to manage it and they're quite quick at it. My favorite phone (at least in terms of idea, execution wasn't perfect) was the Motorola Photon Q - full-size with slide-out keyboard. At least I could somewhat type quickly even if the keyboard wasn't great. Alas, 2012.. With a newish phone? I can probably type 10-20x as fast on my MS Natural keyboard (only one I can use for more than 30-40 minutes without RSI getting bad).. No wonder I don't "live on my phone" - I use it when necessary, and prefer my 40"+ 4K screen + real keyboard.
thewebguyd 1y ago
I buy larger phones, and I don't drop them...so no money saved/lost there. I have big hands, and can use my 16 Pro Max one handed no problem with minimal shifting of the device in my hands. I've never dropped it during one handed use on the go either. Smaller devices are almost impossible for me to type on/be precise with touches because of this.

bigstrat2003 1y ago

> A huge portion of the world only has 1 computer and it's their phone. If those people wish to use phones for something they're not suited for, that's their business. But companies can, and should, have more than one product for different use cases. Nobody says "well only 5% of the market wears this size clothes so you better get used to going naked", instead manufacturers make all different sizes so as to capture more profits. I don't even particularly care if the smaller phone costs more because it's not as much in demand (so, less economy of scale). The problem is that nobody makes one at all, so I can't get what I want at any price whatsoever.

cindyllm 1y ago
[dead]
eMPee584 1y ago
a bit further down from the main stream, there are some fringe chinese manufacturers like unihertz doing small phones..
nikanj 1y ago
Either all phone companies are stupid and leave money on the table, or nobody buys small phones.
- bigstrat2003 1y ago
  All phone companies are stupid and leave money on the table. This is not really in question, imo.

ahartmetz 1y ago

As a member of the desktop class, I'm fine with any size phone that fits comfortably into my pockets.

sevenseacat 1y ago
As a member of the female class, I wish my clothes had pockets!
- ahartmetz 1y ago
  Even casual pants. I never realized before I got a pair of pants from a gf who couldn't wear them anymore. Zipper for the left hand (wtf) and TINY pockets. These were medium fit black corduroy pants, they had the space!

creer 1y ago

Apple is long past a minimal phone lineup. It's not a question of offering just grey or white as the only choices. I'm stuck with an ancient iphone and would upgrade if a pocket-sized one happened. Hasn't happened.

throwaway990089 1y ago

> The problem is that these people are very loud on the internet but sales for small phones are abysmal. iPhone SEs sold like hotcakes and they were smaller than the minis.

password54321 1y ago
The majority of people buying an iPhone SE is because it is relatively cheap not because it is small.