4 ms·

In the USA, sensitive sites are not hidden by blur, but instead by fake scenery generation. Nearby where I live, there is an oil pipeline pump/monitor station.

In the USA, sensitive sites are not hidden by blur, but instead by fake scenery generation. Nearby where I live, there is an oil pipeline pump/monitor station. Shows up on Google maps as dilapidated concrete pad, decades old. Its really a modern pump/lift station, with a razor fence around it. Google maps indicates the tile data is from 2025. The station has been there for 10+ years. Even weirder, is that Bing maps shows the pump station proper.

jjani 1y ago
> In the USA, sensitive sites are not hidden by blur, but instead by fake scenery generation. This is generally the same in Korea, the title is wrong. The military bases are made to look like forests.
newman8r 1y ago
Probably possible to cross reference bing and google imagery to get a complete list of the spots they don't want people to see.
- mystraline 1y ago
  Can you add contact info? I'd be glad to privately share 1 of these sites. And your other interests really coincide with mine. :)
- aerostable_slug 1y ago
  Yandex too. France is particularly full of these kinds of sites, mostly having to do with their nuclear deterrent. If you want to see the interesting vertical silo storage they use for their SLBMs near the loading pier, you're best off using Yandex.
jofer 1y ago
More likely, the date attribution in the imagery is incorrect. As someone who works in that exact field (literally - I produce seamless mosaicked global maps and work for a satellite company), I can assure you that we don't and can't do this (generate "fake" imagery). Depending on country the exact satellite is licensed through, some areas may be lower-res (e.g. sats licensed via Canada can't provide imagery in active conflict zones above a certain resolution). The US govt can in principle demand we stop imaging for US-licensed satellites (though they never have so far as I know). A lot of regulatory details can vary based on the country 1) your satellites are licensed in, 2) your company is based in, and 3) where you're selling data. However, none of the imagery is "fake". Our imagery sometimes feeds into google maps, and I don't know google's exact processing chain, so I can't rule out them doing something like that. However, I'd be absolutely shocked if they were for a lot of different reasons. It's _way_ more likely that the tile data is incorrectly indicating 2025. E.g. they're using 3rd party data that doesn't have detailed scene provenance information in that area and are just showing "2025" in the absence of other information. More interesting is the things China and some other countries do around datums. If you process things correctly, your satellite data won't align with their official street/infrastructure maps. Instead it will be randomly and smoothly shifted in different directions across the country. That's to make on-the-ground targeting based on official maps much more difficult. E.g. you can't reliably take one of the official maps and go "point the artillery at an azimuth of 321.5 degrees and target a location 4567 meters away". However, it makes things really tough when you're trying to provide a correctly processed "backdrop" mosaic to Chinese customers. (IIRC, this problem has gone away due to the ubiquity of OSM data or regulations changed in recent years. Still, China in particular has a lot of interesting regulations around map accuracy.)
- mystraline 1y ago
  I dont think the sat photography companies are providing false or manipulated data. I would believe that Google and other "free" sites would be potentially under orders to edit tile data by federal mandate. A colleague of mine back in the early 2000's put gas/water/sewer/electric maps on GIS. All from public sources. And within a few weeks, the feds caught wind of this and classified his combined maps. Thats why I suspect editing on gas pump stations. And to be fair, they're ill-defended targets that could cause a massive chemical and pollutant spill if they were targeted (like the MAGAs shooting substations). And theres obvious national security aspects with shutting down energy grid operations. Now yeah, there is the Chinese datum problem. But again, non-Chinese sat companies can map in accordance to their government in whichever country they are operating in.
  - Lammy 1y ago
    > All from public sources. Relevant PG&E: https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/641b21b495f049c69589e7752b6524ef https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/641b21b495f049c6958... > (like the MAGAs shooting substations) There's no need to partisanize this. There's a very famous 2013 one from right here in the Bay Area that AFAIK is still unsolved: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metcalf_sniper_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metcalf_sniper_attack > And there's obvious national security aspects with shutting down energy grid operations. This reminds me of visiting the Moffat Tunnel and being surprised by the heavy security labeled Department of Homeland Security of all things. Then I realized there's a giant pipe running alongside the tracks that carries the water supply for the entirety of Denver lol
    - neilknowsbest 1y ago
      I've been to the Moffat Tunnel many times and I never realized there was a water project associated with the better known rail tunnel there. FWIW, I've also never seen any sort of security there. Besides a lone Gilpin county sheriff's deputy who lives out along that road and makes it his life's mission to ticket any vehicle parked illegally on the county road.
general1465 1y ago
It is like that for European maps too. i.e. military bases for many countries are blurred Google Maps, but when you will use some local maps, like mapy.com they are not.
snerbles 1y ago
One specific example was Camp Bucca in 2007, around the time local insurgents managed to successfully inflict casualties with a rocket attack [0]. In an onboarding briefing I recall some officers lamenting the delay in getting Google to "delete" the base from Maps, though I am unsure if there are any public sources that reflect this. [0] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6737159.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6737159.stm
johnbellone 1y ago
Anyone know if there's a reason why it is different? You'd think that procedurally generated scenery would be preference for most governments. It raises less awareness than a blur or missing tiles.
coolspot 1y ago
Likewise, Obama’s new house in Hawaii is shown as empty lot: https://maps.app.goo.gl/pKKkR17trBiz7b9w6?g_st=ipc https://maps.app.goo.gl/pKKkR17trBiz7b9w6?g_st=ipc It was built more than three years ago. Looks the same on Google and Bing. You can see it on Apple Maps though: https://maps.apple.com/place?coordinate=21.324794,-157.679868&map=h https://maps.apple.com/place?coordinate=21.324794,-157.67986...
- stordoff 1y ago
  It looks like Google Maps is using old imagery for some reason. If you look on Google Earth, the image used appears to be from 12 Jan 2016[1]. The more recent imagery (2022 onwards) shows the new build, and you can see glimpses of it in Street View on Google Maps. [1] https://earth.google.com/web/search/%22Robin+Masters+Estate%22,+Waimanalo,+HI,+USA/@21.32479684,-157.67971282,4.49587031a,388.86671607d,35y,0h,0t,0r/data=Cj4iJgokCRpf427GdkhAEV97YUVVdkhAGTRHy5_8H0NAIXuK-ki1HkNAKhAIARIKMjAxNi0wMS0xMhgBQgIIAToDCgEwQgIIAEoNCP___________wEQAA https://earth.google.com/web/search/%22Robin+Masters+Estate%...
  - coolspot 1y ago
    I guess there is less post-processing of images in Google Earth, because it is more professional-oriented product. E.g. the same place in 2020,2021 is covered with a cloud, which never happens in a consumer-oriented maps.
- codedokode 1y ago
  It might be reasonable to protect Mr. Obama's house image. But why not protect commoners' houses equally?
  - coolspot 1y ago
    He and his family are under Secret Service protection for life, so they are not like commoners already, so it makes sense that their houses have special treatment. On the other hand a motivated party can easily get a satellite view from Apple Maps / Google Earth or even build a 3D map using a drone (it is not a no-fly zone). So it doesn’t really contribute to VIP’s security.
groby_b 1y ago
The funny implication here is that this requires governments to ship a complete list of sensitive geolocations. (I have no direct knowledge if that is indeed true, but it sure seems like a prerequisite)
- wiml 1y ago
  Reminds me of the hoops the Vera Rubin Telescope has to jump through to release imagery, submitting each image to the NSA for possible embargo: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2024/12/vera-rubin-telescope-spy-satellite/680814/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2024/12/vera-rub... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42301224 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42301224
seanmcdirmid 1y ago
I wonder if they could just Stable diffusion for that. "Hey, we have to obscure this sector, so generate something plausible based on adjacent tiles."
neilv 1y ago
Would you support censoring the publicly available imagery of "asymmetric" vulnerabilities like that, against a number of less-sophisticated national security adversaries? (Such as adversaries without their own satellite imagery capabilities, but with access to trucks, small arms, and crude explosives.) If Google were censoring, but Microsoft wasn't, then maybe that's an oversight. (For example, maybe MS were told/asked to, but no one noticed that MS didn't, or that MS missed that spot.) If you wanted to alert authorities to a possible oversight, I don't know who; maybe start by calling one of your congressperson's offices, and someone there could forward the info, or suggest who to call?
speckx 1y ago
I was going to say, you can use alternatives, and they will show you what's blurred or has changed.
aaron695 1y ago
[dead]
noman-land 1y ago
Pleease link to this. It would be interesting to see.

jjani 1y ago

> In the USA, sensitive sites are not hidden by blur, but instead by fake scenery generation. This is generally the same in Korea, the title is wrong. The military bases are made to look like forests.

newman8r 1y ago

Probably possible to cross reference bing and google imagery to get a complete list of the spots they don't want people to see.

mystraline 1y ago
Can you add contact info? I'd be glad to privately share 1 of these sites. And your other interests really coincide with mine. :)
aerostable_slug 1y ago
Yandex too. France is particularly full of these kinds of sites, mostly having to do with their nuclear deterrent. If you want to see the interesting vertical silo storage they use for their SLBMs near the loading pier, you're best off using Yandex.

jofer 1y ago

More likely, the date attribution in the imagery is incorrect. As someone who works in that exact field (literally - I produce seamless mosaicked global maps and work for a satellite company), I can assure you that we don't and can't do this (generate "fake" imagery). Depending on country the exact satellite is licensed through, some areas may be lower-res (e.g. sats licensed via Canada can't provide imagery in active conflict zones above a certain resolution). The US govt can in principle demand we stop imaging for US-licensed satellites (though they never have so far as I know). A lot of regulatory details can vary based on the country 1) your satellites are licensed in, 2) your company is based in, and 3) where you're selling data. However, none of the imagery is "fake". Our imagery sometimes feeds into google maps, and I don't know google's exact processing chain, so I can't rule out them doing something like that. However, I'd be absolutely shocked if they were for a lot of different reasons. It's _way_ more likely that the tile data is incorrectly indicating 2025. E.g. they're using 3rd party data that doesn't have detailed scene provenance information in that area and are just showing "2025" in the absence of other information. More interesting is the things China and some other countries do around datums. If you process things correctly, your satellite data won't align with their official street/infrastructure maps. Instead it will be randomly and smoothly shifted in different directions across the country. That's to make on-the-ground targeting based on official maps much more difficult. E.g. you can't reliably take one of the official maps and go "point the artillery at an azimuth of 321.5 degrees and target a location 4567 meters away". However, it makes things really tough when you're trying to provide a correctly processed "backdrop" mosaic to Chinese customers. (IIRC, this problem has gone away due to the ubiquity of OSM data or regulations changed in recent years. Still, China in particular has a lot of interesting regulations around map accuracy.)

mystraline 1y ago
I dont think the sat photography companies are providing false or manipulated data. I would believe that Google and other "free" sites would be potentially under orders to edit tile data by federal mandate. A colleague of mine back in the early 2000's put gas/water/sewer/electric maps on GIS. All from public sources. And within a few weeks, the feds caught wind of this and classified his combined maps. Thats why I suspect editing on gas pump stations. And to be fair, they're ill-defended targets that could cause a massive chemical and pollutant spill if they were targeted (like the MAGAs shooting substations). And theres obvious national security aspects with shutting down energy grid operations. Now yeah, there is the Chinese datum problem. But again, non-Chinese sat companies can map in accordance to their government in whichever country they are operating in.
- Lammy 1y ago
  > All from public sources. Relevant PG&E: https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/641b21b495f049c69589e7752b6524ef https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/641b21b495f049c6958... > (like the MAGAs shooting substations) There's no need to partisanize this. There's a very famous 2013 one from right here in the Bay Area that AFAIK is still unsolved: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metcalf_sniper_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metcalf_sniper_attack > And there's obvious national security aspects with shutting down energy grid operations. This reminds me of visiting the Moffat Tunnel and being surprised by the heavy security labeled Department of Homeland Security of all things. Then I realized there's a giant pipe running alongside the tracks that carries the water supply for the entirety of Denver lol
  - neilknowsbest 1y ago
    I've been to the Moffat Tunnel many times and I never realized there was a water project associated with the better known rail tunnel there. FWIW, I've also never seen any sort of security there. Besides a lone Gilpin county sheriff's deputy who lives out along that road and makes it his life's mission to ticket any vehicle parked illegally on the county road.

general1465 1y ago

It is like that for European maps too. i.e. military bases for many countries are blurred Google Maps, but when you will use some local maps, like mapy.com they are not.

snerbles 1y ago

One specific example was Camp Bucca in 2007, around the time local insurgents managed to successfully inflict casualties with a rocket attack [0]. In an onboarding briefing I recall some officers lamenting the delay in getting Google to "delete" the base from Maps, though I am unsure if there are any public sources that reflect this. [0] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6737159.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6737159.stm

johnbellone 1y ago

Anyone know if there's a reason why it is different? You'd think that procedurally generated scenery would be preference for most governments. It raises less awareness than a blur or missing tiles.

coolspot 1y ago

Likewise, Obama’s new house in Hawaii is shown as empty lot: https://maps.app.goo.gl/pKKkR17trBiz7b9w6?g_st=ipc https://maps.app.goo.gl/pKKkR17trBiz7b9w6?g_st=ipc It was built more than three years ago. Looks the same on Google and Bing. You can see it on Apple Maps though: https://maps.apple.com/place?coordinate=21.324794,-157.679868&map=h https://maps.apple.com/place?coordinate=21.324794,-157.67986...

stordoff 1y ago
It looks like Google Maps is using old imagery for some reason. If you look on Google Earth, the image used appears to be from 12 Jan 2016[1]. The more recent imagery (2022 onwards) shows the new build, and you can see glimpses of it in Street View on Google Maps. [1] https://earth.google.com/web/search/%22Robin+Masters+Estate%22,+Waimanalo,+HI,+USA/@21.32479684,-157.67971282,4.49587031a,388.86671607d,35y,0h,0t,0r/data=Cj4iJgokCRpf427GdkhAEV97YUVVdkhAGTRHy5_8H0NAIXuK-ki1HkNAKhAIARIKMjAxNi0wMS0xMhgBQgIIAToDCgEwQgIIAEoNCP___________wEQAA https://earth.google.com/web/search/%22Robin+Masters+Estate%...
- coolspot 1y ago
  I guess there is less post-processing of images in Google Earth, because it is more professional-oriented product. E.g. the same place in 2020,2021 is covered with a cloud, which never happens in a consumer-oriented maps.
codedokode 1y ago
It might be reasonable to protect Mr. Obama's house image. But why not protect commoners' houses equally?
- coolspot 1y ago
  He and his family are under Secret Service protection for life, so they are not like commoners already, so it makes sense that their houses have special treatment. On the other hand a motivated party can easily get a satellite view from Apple Maps / Google Earth or even build a 3D map using a drone (it is not a no-fly zone). So it doesn’t really contribute to VIP’s security.

groby_b 1y ago

The funny implication here is that this requires governments to ship a complete list of sensitive geolocations. (I have no direct knowledge if that is indeed true, but it sure seems like a prerequisite)

wiml 1y ago
Reminds me of the hoops the Vera Rubin Telescope has to jump through to release imagery, submitting each image to the NSA for possible embargo: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2024/12/vera-rubin-telescope-spy-satellite/680814/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2024/12/vera-rub... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42301224 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42301224

seanmcdirmid 1y ago

I wonder if they could just Stable diffusion for that. "Hey, we have to obscure this sector, so generate something plausible based on adjacent tiles."

neilv 1y ago

Would you support censoring the publicly available imagery of "asymmetric" vulnerabilities like that, against a number of less-sophisticated national security adversaries? (Such as adversaries without their own satellite imagery capabilities, but with access to trucks, small arms, and crude explosives.) If Google were censoring, but Microsoft wasn't, then maybe that's an oversight. (For example, maybe MS were told/asked to, but no one noticed that MS didn't, or that MS missed that spot.) If you wanted to alert authorities to a possible oversight, I don't know who; maybe start by calling one of your congressperson's offices, and someone there could forward the info, or suggest who to call?

speckx 1y ago

I was going to say, you can use alternatives, and they will show you what's blurred or has changed.

aaron695 1y ago

[dead]

noman-land 1y ago

Pleease link to this. It would be interesting to see.