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>Federal and immigration agents arrested 475 people on Thursday — mostly South Korean nationals — while executing a judicial search warrant as part of a crimina

by gruez 1y ago

>Federal and immigration agents arrested 475 people on Thursday — mostly South Korean nationals — while executing a judicial search warrant as part of a criminal investigation into alleged unlawful employment at the facility. > ... >South Korea will “push forward measures to review and improve the residency status and visa system for personnel travelling to the United States.” The implication seems to be that the workers didn't have authorization to work there.

ajross 1y ago
> The implication seems to be that the workers didn't have authorization to work there. No one ever does, by that standard. In the US, if you're a professional coming in to do some short-term thing, there's no visa process. You just fly in and get the stamp in your passport, which is technically treated as a "waiver of visa". Then you do your job and go home. Like, have you every flown somewhere to attend a conference and a meeting? Same thing. Where's the "authorization"?
- gruez 1y ago
  >Like, have you every flown somewhere to attend a conference and a meeting? Same thing. Where's the "authorization"? Something tells me that working at a factory, even for "training" purposes is very different than attending a conference. Wikipedia confirms this: >There are restrictions on the type of employment-related activities allowed. Meetings and conferences in relation to the travelers' profession, line of business or employer in their home country are generally acceptable, but most forms of "gainful employment" are not. There are however poorly-classifiable exceptions such as persons performing professional services in the United States for a non-U.S. employer, and persons installing, servicing and repairing commercial or industrial equipment or machinery pursuant to a contract of sale.[26] Performers (such as actors and musicians) who plan on performing live or taping scenes for productions in their country of origin, as well as athletes participating in an athletic event, are likewise not allowed to use the VWP for their respective engagements and are instead required to have an O or P visa prior to arrival. Foreign media representatives and journalists on assignment are required to have a nonimmigrant media (I) visa.[27]
  - Schnitz 1y ago
    Technically almost every white collar business traveler is working in the US illegally if you strictly apply the letter of the law. Let’s say you come here for two days of meetings and you are coding or doing some analysis on the third day before you fly home. You’ve now violated your business visa. The Trump administration can start enforcing the law like that and we’ll be even more screwed, because absolutely no non-US company will build anything if business travel to help spin up the office or plant is practically impossible.
    - BurningFrog 1y ago
      Unless you're being paid a US wage by a US company this is practically impossible to discover, other than by raiding the office/factory like they did at Hyundai.
      - Schnitz 1y ago
        Technically they can raid any big tech company and I’m sure they’ll find some business travelers that are working between meetings.
    - lokar 1y ago
      And the same in other places. I’ve traveled to Europe many times without a work visa. I go to meetings, talk yo people and yes, write a bit of code. It’s what everyone does.
  - ajross 1y ago
    It was a factory under construction. While, sure, the law is ambiguous (which is the whole point of having "norms" like this in the first place), surely you'd agree that their work falls under "persons installing, servicing and repairing commercial or industrial equipment or machinery pursuant to a contract of sale." I just can't understand how anyone thinks that a "Surprise! You're in jail now!" change of enforcement norms like this is a good thing.
    - 1y ago
- nemo44x 1y ago
  I’m guessing they were doing that or similar but doing more than is scoped for that. And everyone has probably been doing this for a long time for short term specialist tasks, so it’s industry practice now.
- abcd_f 1y ago
  > Like, have you every flown somewhere to attend a conference and a meeting? Same thing. I flew to an expo where our company had a booth and the US border patrol took me aside and started asking if I'd be selling things there or working at the booth in some other form. I told them that I am a tech going to see other companies' stuff. They then discussed something between themselves for 10 minutes and let me pass. This was 20 years ago, so them being picky is certainly not a new thing.
  - ajmurmann 1y ago
    The fact that something normal, we need to happen as a country, is ambiguous and sparks a 10 minute discussion is the big red flag. Immigration and business visits need to be clear and quick. We need naive immigration reform.
    - stackskipton 1y ago
      US needs immigration reform bad but problem is you have two competing sides. Plenty of companies want to bring in cheaper/visa tied workers and US workers who want to protect their wages. Few voters have any faith in politicians to not completely screw over average American.
      - ajmurmann 1y ago
        And apparently many Americans lack confidence in their own ability to perform better than people who barely speak the local language whose supervisor they could become.
  - ghaff 1y ago
    When there were custom forms everyone had to fill out, as I recall, one of the questions was whether you had samples or goods for sale (or something like that). Priorities have probably shifted but direct commercial activities probably remain a concern even in countries that generally have no issue with you attending a conference or meeting with customers.
- lars_francke 1y ago
  That is not true. There is a process, it's usually tedious but it exists. I did it for Singapore, the US and Israel. They mostly took multiple months but I never wanted to take any chances. For the US it was a "B-1 in lieu of H-1B" visa for example. Attending a conference is something different than what these workers did. There are rules around what a "business trip" is and what is not and what "work" is.
  - xadhominemx 1y ago
    There are visa types specifically created for this sort of situation (e.g. E2 visas). But those visas are only available to certain nationals and South Koreans are not among them, which is very stupid given the strong commercial and strategic ties between the USA and South Korea.

by gruez 1y ago

ajross 1y ago

> The implication seems to be that the workers didn't have authorization to work there. No one ever does, by that standard. In the US, if you're a professional coming in to do some short-term thing, there's no visa process. You just fly in and get the stamp in your passport, which is technically treated as a "waiver of visa". Then you do your job and go home. Like, have you every flown somewhere to attend a conference and a meeting? Same thing. Where's the "authorization"?

gruez 1y ago
>Like, have you every flown somewhere to attend a conference and a meeting? Same thing. Where's the "authorization"? Something tells me that working at a factory, even for "training" purposes is very different than attending a conference. Wikipedia confirms this: >There are restrictions on the type of employment-related activities allowed. Meetings and conferences in relation to the travelers' profession, line of business or employer in their home country are generally acceptable, but most forms of "gainful employment" are not. There are however poorly-classifiable exceptions such as persons performing professional services in the United States for a non-U.S. employer, and persons installing, servicing and repairing commercial or industrial equipment or machinery pursuant to a contract of sale.[26] Performers (such as actors and musicians) who plan on performing live or taping scenes for productions in their country of origin, as well as athletes participating in an athletic event, are likewise not allowed to use the VWP for their respective engagements and are instead required to have an O or P visa prior to arrival. Foreign media representatives and journalists on assignment are required to have a nonimmigrant media (I) visa.[27]
- Schnitz 1y ago
  Technically almost every white collar business traveler is working in the US illegally if you strictly apply the letter of the law. Let’s say you come here for two days of meetings and you are coding or doing some analysis on the third day before you fly home. You’ve now violated your business visa. The Trump administration can start enforcing the law like that and we’ll be even more screwed, because absolutely no non-US company will build anything if business travel to help spin up the office or plant is practically impossible.
  - BurningFrog 1y ago
    Unless you're being paid a US wage by a US company this is practically impossible to discover, other than by raiding the office/factory like they did at Hyundai.
    - Schnitz 1y ago
      Technically they can raid any big tech company and I’m sure they’ll find some business travelers that are working between meetings.
  - lokar 1y ago
    And the same in other places. I’ve traveled to Europe many times without a work visa. I go to meetings, talk yo people and yes, write a bit of code. It’s what everyone does.
- ajross 1y ago
  It was a factory under construction. While, sure, the law is ambiguous (which is the whole point of having "norms" like this in the first place), surely you'd agree that their work falls under "persons installing, servicing and repairing commercial or industrial equipment or machinery pursuant to a contract of sale." I just can't understand how anyone thinks that a "Surprise! You're in jail now!" change of enforcement norms like this is a good thing.
  - 1y ago
nemo44x 1y ago
I’m guessing they were doing that or similar but doing more than is scoped for that. And everyone has probably been doing this for a long time for short term specialist tasks, so it’s industry practice now.
abcd_f 1y ago
> Like, have you every flown somewhere to attend a conference and a meeting? Same thing. I flew to an expo where our company had a booth and the US border patrol took me aside and started asking if I'd be selling things there or working at the booth in some other form. I told them that I am a tech going to see other companies' stuff. They then discussed something between themselves for 10 minutes and let me pass. This was 20 years ago, so them being picky is certainly not a new thing.
- ajmurmann 1y ago
  The fact that something normal, we need to happen as a country, is ambiguous and sparks a 10 minute discussion is the big red flag. Immigration and business visits need to be clear and quick. We need naive immigration reform.
  - stackskipton 1y ago
    US needs immigration reform bad but problem is you have two competing sides. Plenty of companies want to bring in cheaper/visa tied workers and US workers who want to protect their wages. Few voters have any faith in politicians to not completely screw over average American.
    - ajmurmann 1y ago
      And apparently many Americans lack confidence in their own ability to perform better than people who barely speak the local language whose supervisor they could become.
- ghaff 1y ago
  When there were custom forms everyone had to fill out, as I recall, one of the questions was whether you had samples or goods for sale (or something like that). Priorities have probably shifted but direct commercial activities probably remain a concern even in countries that generally have no issue with you attending a conference or meeting with customers.
lars_francke 1y ago
That is not true. There is a process, it's usually tedious but it exists. I did it for Singapore, the US and Israel. They mostly took multiple months but I never wanted to take any chances. For the US it was a "B-1 in lieu of H-1B" visa for example. Attending a conference is something different than what these workers did. There are rules around what a "business trip" is and what is not and what "work" is.
- xadhominemx 1y ago
  There are visa types specifically created for this sort of situation (e.g. E2 visas). But those visas are only available to certain nationals and South Koreans are not among them, which is very stupid given the strong commercial and strategic ties between the USA and South Korea.