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I mean this is well-intentioned, but with all career advice I've seen it's mostly a bunch of hocus-pocus. For example maybe your company gets bought by private

I mean this is well-intentioned, but with all career advice I've seen it's mostly a bunch of hocus-pocus. For example maybe your company gets bought by private equity and 0 people get promoted for years on end. Or maybe you have a speech impediment and you never get promoted beyond a certain point. The only career advice is - if you want to get promoted understand the motivations of those who can promote and try to make it in their self-interest to promote you.

monkaiju 1y ago
I didn't read this as a "how to get promoted" post at all...
- wavemode 1y ago
  How did you read it?
  - nine_k 1y ago
    Quoting directly: «It depends entirely on the person receiving it. For some people it means finding work they love. For others it’s about meaning. For many it’s just getting promoted.» That is, getting promoted is partly it, and partly explicitly not.
- neilv 1y ago
  It mostly is, but the author asserts that the advice is also applicable to (the minority of?) people with other goals. The author deals with the question of the advice recipient's goals near the start of the piece: > For some people it means finding work they love. For others it’s about meaning. For many it’s just getting promoted. Still, here’s what I usually say. The rest of the piece does sound like corporate ladder-climber advice. For example: > [...] and people notice. That’s enough for a while. But eventually it’s not. Everyone around you is technically strong too. So for most of us, you won’t stand out anymore. You need to increase your impact in other ways. [...] Where, to a ladder-climber, "impact" is corporate euphemism for recognition and promotion ("people notice" and "stand[ing] out"). And common corporate getting-recognition advice: > And do it in the open. A common mistake is assuming work speaks for itself. It rarely does. And even the closing words could be constructive advice for ladder-climbers: > And in the long run, the best way to get what you want is to deserve it. But it could also be applicable to the rare/mythical unicorns who just want to do good work within a corporate environment.
  - II2II 1y ago
    I don't think those points have to be interpreted as promotion-seeking advice. Even once you have attained a position of where you are doing work with impact, that you find meaningful, work that you love, or whatever else it is that motivates you, you still have to maintain that position. In some ways, that is harder to do than seeking out a promotion since the person who replaces your boss may not understand your role or may not even understand why you are not seeking a promotion. Even if the people around you remain the same, they may take you for granted.
    - neilv 1y ago
      True, it also applies to people who want to maintain their position, not climb higher. (At least in orgs that don't have "up or out" culture.)
Aurornis 1y ago
> The only career advice is - if you want to get promoted understand the motivations of those who can promote and try to make it in their self-interest to promote you. It's true that you need to understand the motivations of people in charge and align your output with that. However, these overly reductive approaches to the workplace can easily backfire. A lot of the go-getter juniors I've had to work with in my career approached the workplace like a game of 4D chess to unlock, where they just need to identify what matters to their skip level boss and hyperfocus on that. Some times it works for a little while, but in my experience many employees underestimate how blatantly obvious these games are to any experienced manager. From a management perspective, you can notice when someone is a hyper-responder to perceived incentives and trying to people-please you into rewarding them. Good managers learn to be careful about what's said, even in passing, and to carefully call out the behaviors they want to see to keep them on track. Evil managers see this incentive-reward hyper response and use it against the employee. I've worked with some managers who will spot these go-getters early and then dangle carrots in front of them every time they want to get something done. The employee will chase every carrot aggressively, thinking it's their ticket to getting ahead. In reality, the manager isn't interested in promoting them out of that role because they can so reliably extract extra work by dangling another carrot.
- xoac 1y ago
  The problem is of course that there isn’t that many good managers.
- anal_reactor 1y ago
  > dangle carrots When my coworker was leaving, I learned that he was earning 2x my salary. I went to my manager and asked for a raise. He told me he'd promote me if I do some project. I went above and beyond, but my manager simply set me up for failure. I don't think it was intentional, but rather that he's incompetent, because it's a pattern that I tell him to do X, he says that X doesn't make sense, one year later we go back to X. Now my strategy is to slack off as much as I can. The company is comically dysfunctional, so the end result is that I have a livable wage for effectively two hours of work a day. The rest of the time I'm at home. I have a go-getter in my team but they also got disillusioned when they fulfilled the promotion requirements but then the requirements changed. This means we're slowly building a team of lazy fucks, contributing to the overall rot in the company. Which honestly isn't a bad deal from my perspective when you think about it.
Kokouane 1y ago
I have a speech impediment and currently a junior engineer. Will this actually prevent me from getting promoted? :( Maybe I should look into some speech therapy but not exactly sure how effective that is past a certain age.
- bluefirebrand 1y ago
  I hate to say it but it might negatively impact your career. I hope it doesn't, but it might People in charge of promotions often have more than one choice for a given promotion and they will use any criteria they can to weigh for or against you A speech impediment is more likely to weigh against you than for you, unfortunately That's the sort of thing that anti discrimination laws and guidelines are supposed to remedy but I suspect they mostly don't actually fix Personally, if speech therapy is an option I think I would try it? It can't hurt you any I'm going deaf, and looking into fixes for that. I don't think you should be ashamed of your speech impediment, but I also don't think you should be ashamed for looking into help fixing your impediment either
  - Nevermark 1y ago
    This is good advice. Their is also an effect that I have seen many times and experienced myself. Where it’s evident that someone has an idiosyncratic challenge, but you can tell they have put effort into overcoming or mitigating it. And they just work through it, not letting it get in their way. It demonstrates life competence, and is a real positive. Whatever you do, whatever you can do, don’t let “it” get in your way.
  - RugnirViking 1y ago
    Absolutely, this. I see this all the time with colleagues that don't speak English too well (I'm not in an English speaking country, but development offices often use English) I'm not talking about people who can't express themselves or can't understand, merely that they haven't mastered it - use clumsy wording, or have a thick accent. These are often some of the most technically capable and talented people I've worked with, but also typically are not perceived as such by others, and im ashamed to say, working together with them would often result on the credit being placed unduly on myself.

monkaiju 1y ago

I didn't read this as a "how to get promoted" post at all...

wavemode 1y ago
How did you read it?
- nine_k 1y ago
  Quoting directly: «It depends entirely on the person receiving it. For some people it means finding work they love. For others it’s about meaning. For many it’s just getting promoted.» That is, getting promoted is partly it, and partly explicitly not.
neilv 1y ago
It mostly is, but the author asserts that the advice is also applicable to (the minority of?) people with other goals. The author deals with the question of the advice recipient's goals near the start of the piece: > For some people it means finding work they love. For others it’s about meaning. For many it’s just getting promoted. Still, here’s what I usually say. The rest of the piece does sound like corporate ladder-climber advice. For example: > [...] and people notice. That’s enough for a while. But eventually it’s not. Everyone around you is technically strong too. So for most of us, you won’t stand out anymore. You need to increase your impact in other ways. [...] Where, to a ladder-climber, "impact" is corporate euphemism for recognition and promotion ("people notice" and "stand[ing] out"). And common corporate getting-recognition advice: > And do it in the open. A common mistake is assuming work speaks for itself. It rarely does. And even the closing words could be constructive advice for ladder-climbers: > And in the long run, the best way to get what you want is to deserve it. But it could also be applicable to the rare/mythical unicorns who just want to do good work within a corporate environment.
- II2II 1y ago
  I don't think those points have to be interpreted as promotion-seeking advice. Even once you have attained a position of where you are doing work with impact, that you find meaningful, work that you love, or whatever else it is that motivates you, you still have to maintain that position. In some ways, that is harder to do than seeking out a promotion since the person who replaces your boss may not understand your role or may not even understand why you are not seeking a promotion. Even if the people around you remain the same, they may take you for granted.
  - neilv 1y ago
    True, it also applies to people who want to maintain their position, not climb higher. (At least in orgs that don't have "up or out" culture.)

Aurornis 1y ago

> The only career advice is - if you want to get promoted understand the motivations of those who can promote and try to make it in their self-interest to promote you. It's true that you need to understand the motivations of people in charge and align your output with that. However, these overly reductive approaches to the workplace can easily backfire. A lot of the go-getter juniors I've had to work with in my career approached the workplace like a game of 4D chess to unlock, where they just need to identify what matters to their skip level boss and hyperfocus on that. Some times it works for a little while, but in my experience many employees underestimate how blatantly obvious these games are to any experienced manager. From a management perspective, you can notice when someone is a hyper-responder to perceived incentives and trying to people-please you into rewarding them. Good managers learn to be careful about what's said, even in passing, and to carefully call out the behaviors they want to see to keep them on track. Evil managers see this incentive-reward hyper response and use it against the employee. I've worked with some managers who will spot these go-getters early and then dangle carrots in front of them every time they want to get something done. The employee will chase every carrot aggressively, thinking it's their ticket to getting ahead. In reality, the manager isn't interested in promoting them out of that role because they can so reliably extract extra work by dangling another carrot.

xoac 1y ago
The problem is of course that there isn’t that many good managers.
anal_reactor 1y ago
> dangle carrots When my coworker was leaving, I learned that he was earning 2x my salary. I went to my manager and asked for a raise. He told me he'd promote me if I do some project. I went above and beyond, but my manager simply set me up for failure. I don't think it was intentional, but rather that he's incompetent, because it's a pattern that I tell him to do X, he says that X doesn't make sense, one year later we go back to X. Now my strategy is to slack off as much as I can. The company is comically dysfunctional, so the end result is that I have a livable wage for effectively two hours of work a day. The rest of the time I'm at home. I have a go-getter in my team but they also got disillusioned when they fulfilled the promotion requirements but then the requirements changed. This means we're slowly building a team of lazy fucks, contributing to the overall rot in the company. Which honestly isn't a bad deal from my perspective when you think about it.

Kokouane 1y ago

I have a speech impediment and currently a junior engineer. Will this actually prevent me from getting promoted? :( Maybe I should look into some speech therapy but not exactly sure how effective that is past a certain age.

bluefirebrand 1y ago
I hate to say it but it might negatively impact your career. I hope it doesn't, but it might People in charge of promotions often have more than one choice for a given promotion and they will use any criteria they can to weigh for or against you A speech impediment is more likely to weigh against you than for you, unfortunately That's the sort of thing that anti discrimination laws and guidelines are supposed to remedy but I suspect they mostly don't actually fix Personally, if speech therapy is an option I think I would try it? It can't hurt you any I'm going deaf, and looking into fixes for that. I don't think you should be ashamed of your speech impediment, but I also don't think you should be ashamed for looking into help fixing your impediment either
- Nevermark 1y ago
  This is good advice. Their is also an effect that I have seen many times and experienced myself. Where it’s evident that someone has an idiosyncratic challenge, but you can tell they have put effort into overcoming or mitigating it. And they just work through it, not letting it get in their way. It demonstrates life competence, and is a real positive. Whatever you do, whatever you can do, don’t let “it” get in your way.
- RugnirViking 1y ago
  Absolutely, this. I see this all the time with colleagues that don't speak English too well (I'm not in an English speaking country, but development offices often use English) I'm not talking about people who can't express themselves or can't understand, merely that they haven't mastered it - use clumsy wording, or have a thick accent. These are often some of the most technically capable and talented people I've worked with, but also typically are not perceived as such by others, and im ashamed to say, working together with them would often result on the credit being placed unduly on myself.