6 ms·

Gloria funicular derailment initial findings report (EN) [pdf]

46 points by vascocosta 1y ago

vascocosta 1y ago
This is not a preliminary report yet, but presents interesting technical data, including a description of how the system works and a detailed timeline of what happened pointing towards the detachment of the balancing cable at the anchoring socket of the cabin that crashed.
- mixdup 1y ago
  It's also incredibly detailed for a report on an event that happened 3 days ago
  - davelondon 1y ago
    Just what I was thinking! Normally these things take months...
    - vascocosta 1y ago
      Yes, as a Portuguese with some patriotic feelings (but also self critical when needed), I was impressed myself with the quality of this report given the time frame.
evanjrowley 1y ago
A very unfortunate fatal accident for those involved. It is a sad outcome caused in part by the failsafe mechanisms not being designed situations where the cable broke the way it did. I hope these can be re-engineered to overcome such failures. I only recently learned what a funicular was thanks to the diagnonal elevators in video games series of YouTube videos by sync-on-luna: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2oELc61XHE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2oELc61XHE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5EHBoU6Ps4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5EHBoU6Ps4
- vascocosta 1y ago
  Hopefully that's what this investigation will lead to. Nice videos.
robocat 1y ago
Key lines: > the air brake and the manual brake were quickly applied by the brakeman of cab #1, but that in the current configuration, the brakes do not have sufficient capacity to stop the cabins in motion without their empty masses being mutually balanced by the connecting cable. Therefore, the existing brakes does not constitute a redundant system in case of a failure in the connecting cable.
- DetroitThrow 1y ago
  So, the brakes would have never worked if connecting cables broke? And this specific failure has just never happened before? Jesus.
  - vlfig 1y ago
    Although it isn't yet clear how much the brakes did actually brake, it is known they would never be enough. So the cable was a critical component and initial findings suggest it wasn't being verified as rigourously, thoroughly and often as it perhaps should have.
    - mastazi 1y ago
      > it is known they would never be enough. No that's not what it says. Brakes were not enough "in the current configuration" in other words they were not applied fully. The investigation will focus on why brakes were not applying full breaking force. In railway jargon "brake configuration" refers to "how much are you braking" but you seem to have interpreted "braking configuration" as "the number and type of brakes that are currently installed in the vehicle"
      - sho 1y ago
        While I personally lean towards your interpretation, the language is ambiguous - perhaps intentionally so - and it is premature to read too much into it in either direction. We’ll just have to wait.
      - Animats 1y ago
ljlolel 1y ago
Totally unrelated but there’s a Portuguese language Cold War miniseries on Netflix called Gloria that is excellent (set in Gloria city). I just happened to start to watch that this week
- weinzierl 1y ago
  Watched it front to back in Portuguese a while ago. It is one of the few series available in European Portuguese, most are Brazilian. I'd say it was time well spent, it is an entertaining and capturing thriller and you learn a bit about a certain era of Portuguese history. What annoyed me a bit was that it had many small period inconsistencies. Little things like modern buildings, modern cars visible in the background, the Yamaha grand that did not yet exist in 60s and so on. Where it shines are the landscape shots.
  - rcruzeiro 1y ago
    When watching it, the thing that would consistently real the period piece illusion for me were the modern cranes that you could often see in the Lisbon scenes.
    - ljlolel 1y ago
      Tough to avoid for a budget limited run tv series. Fixing that would be expensive detail special fx for no value (maybe easy to clean up now with ai for a few hundred dollars)
  - pjmlp 1y ago
    Another great one, based on the same direction approach as Casa de Papel, is Rabo de Peixe.
  - pta2002 1y ago
    RTP (public TV network, which also produced Gloria and Turn of the Tide, the two Portuguese Netflix shows) is unfortunately the only network investing in this type of fiction television. The other two big networks unfortunately only seem to invest in soap operas, which run for 600+ episodes and are very formulaic. It’s sad because RTP has definitely made some very good stuff (and they’ve been collaborating with Spanish networks on some cross-border shows, there’s a few they’re pretty good), but you can tell that these things suffer from relatively low budgets. That’s why turn of the tide came as quite a shock in quality compared to the rest of the shows - Netflix actually put a relatively high budget into the show, which just allows them to dedicate so much more time to these little things.
cesarb 1y ago
If you prefer to read it in Portuguese, the link seems to be https://www.gpiaaf.gov.pt/upload/processos/d054238.pdf https://www.gpiaaf.gov.pt/upload/processos/d054238.pdf (source: https://www.gpiaaf.gov.pt/detalhe-noticias?uri=1665 https://www.gpiaaf.gov.pt/detalhe-noticias?uri=1665 which has both links)
qingcharles 1y ago
Summary: the wrecked cabin had started its descent from the top station, only got a few seconds down before the steel cable pulled out of its socket; the cabin went into freefall down the tracks; the staff activated all the brakes available, but they were clearly not designed for this situation and could not provide enough stopping force before it derailed and hit a wall and a lamp-post at approx 60km/h.
- yongjik 1y ago
  Wow, only 60km/h. If it was a modern bus hitting a building at that speed, most occupants would be able to walk out. Really puts into perspective how much safety improved in the past 100 years.
  - inferiorhuman 1y ago
    Passenger cars from 40 years ago would struggle to protect you at those speeds.
  - vascocosta 1y ago
    One of the issues is that the body consists of a wooden frame, surrounded by a thin sheet of steel to avoid extra weight. So it's not very strong, plus the bulk of the 14 ton mass lies on the bottom where the bogies are. When it derailed and tipped over, the strong structure underneath the cabin sort of crushed the lightweight structure where the passengers were.
pjmlp 1y ago
Have to read it with time, however as Portuguese I imagine the service done during the same day of the tragedy was as always in our culture, "good enough" and to move on. Likewise having all offers turned down for service, in some other cultures, they would rather shut down the funicular than keep it running without such contracts in place. Now several people are dead. As usual, "casa roubada, trancas às portas"
- vascocosta 1y ago
  > Have to read it with time, however as Portuguese I imagine the service done during the same day of the tragedy was as always in our culture, "good enough" and to move on. Coming from the same country as you, I totally understand. However, in this particular case the maintenance seems to have been done as it was supposed to be. The problem seems to be that the cable broke at the anchoring point underneath the cabin, already underground. This is hidden from view during a normal daily inspection, where someone goes underground and checks the whole cable during a round trip of the cabin. They check the free cable going through pulleys and a flywheel, but they can't see inside the attachment point where the cable meets the cabin. This is only done in more thorough inspections, which do not happen daily. Now, why it broke exactly at that point is probably related to how it was installed and not so much poor quality of the cable itself. Although some manufacturing issue could also be related. We will have to wait and see, but like you said, several innocent people are dead. Hopefully in this case it wasn't down to our culture of "it's good enough, let's move on", which indeed, unfortunately, is part of our history. The least we can do now is find the real causes and make it safer in the future.
  - pjmlp 1y ago
    Thanks for the overview, living abroad I don't follow all details, as close as I would being there.
    - vascocosta 1y ago
      You're welcome. :) Most people here have exactly the same view you expressed. My initial reaction was the same as well. Then, on top of it all there's the political noise where each party is now trying to take some advantage out of the situation, which isn't pretty. Besides, we both know well how things usually happen here, so it's only human to think there was some kind of gross mistake. I want to believe it wasn't the case this time, but who knows... We will have to wait and see.
usr1106 1y ago
I find it suprising that the designed life length of the cable is less than 2 years. Is that common also for more modern cable transports?

46 points by vascocosta 1y ago

This is not a preliminary report yet, but presents interesting technical data, including a description of how the system works and a detailed timeline of what happened pointing towards the detachment of the balancing cable at the anchoring socket of the cabin that crashed.

mixdup 1y ago
It's also incredibly detailed for a report on an event that happened 3 days ago
- davelondon 1y ago
  Just what I was thinking! Normally these things take months...
  - vascocosta 1y ago
    Yes, as a Portuguese with some patriotic feelings (but also self critical when needed), I was impressed myself with the quality of this report given the time frame.

evanjrowley 1y ago

A very unfortunate fatal accident for those involved. It is a sad outcome caused in part by the failsafe mechanisms not being designed situations where the cable broke the way it did. I hope these can be re-engineered to overcome such failures. I only recently learned what a funicular was thanks to the diagnonal elevators in video games series of YouTube videos by sync-on-luna: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2oELc61XHE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2oELc61XHE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5EHBoU6Ps4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5EHBoU6Ps4

vascocosta 1y ago
Hopefully that's what this investigation will lead to. Nice videos.

robocat 1y ago

Key lines: > the air brake and the manual brake were quickly applied by the brakeman of cab #1, but that in the current configuration, the brakes do not have sufficient capacity to stop the cabins in motion without their empty masses being mutually balanced by the connecting cable. Therefore, the existing brakes does not constitute a redundant system in case of a failure in the connecting cable.

DetroitThrow 1y ago
So, the brakes would have never worked if connecting cables broke? And this specific failure has just never happened before? Jesus.
- vlfig 1y ago
  Although it isn't yet clear how much the brakes did actually brake, it is known they would never be enough. So the cable was a critical component and initial findings suggest it wasn't being verified as rigourously, thoroughly and often as it perhaps should have.
  - mastazi 1y ago
    > it is known they would never be enough. No that's not what it says. Brakes were not enough "in the current configuration" in other words they were not applied fully. The investigation will focus on why brakes were not applying full breaking force. In railway jargon "brake configuration" refers to "how much are you braking" but you seem to have interpreted "braking configuration" as "the number and type of brakes that are currently installed in the vehicle"
    - sho 1y ago
      While I personally lean towards your interpretation, the language is ambiguous - perhaps intentionally so - and it is premature to read too much into it in either direction. We’ll just have to wait.
    - Animats 1y ago

ljlolel 1y ago

Totally unrelated but there’s a Portuguese language Cold War miniseries on Netflix called Gloria that is excellent (set in Gloria city). I just happened to start to watch that this week

weinzierl 1y ago
Watched it front to back in Portuguese a while ago. It is one of the few series available in European Portuguese, most are Brazilian. I'd say it was time well spent, it is an entertaining and capturing thriller and you learn a bit about a certain era of Portuguese history. What annoyed me a bit was that it had many small period inconsistencies. Little things like modern buildings, modern cars visible in the background, the Yamaha grand that did not yet exist in 60s and so on. Where it shines are the landscape shots.
- rcruzeiro 1y ago
  When watching it, the thing that would consistently real the period piece illusion for me were the modern cranes that you could often see in the Lisbon scenes.
  - ljlolel 1y ago
    Tough to avoid for a budget limited run tv series. Fixing that would be expensive detail special fx for no value (maybe easy to clean up now with ai for a few hundred dollars)
- pjmlp 1y ago
  Another great one, based on the same direction approach as Casa de Papel, is Rabo de Peixe.
- pta2002 1y ago
  RTP (public TV network, which also produced Gloria and Turn of the Tide, the two Portuguese Netflix shows) is unfortunately the only network investing in this type of fiction television. The other two big networks unfortunately only seem to invest in soap operas, which run for 600+ episodes and are very formulaic. It’s sad because RTP has definitely made some very good stuff (and they’ve been collaborating with Spanish networks on some cross-border shows, there’s a few they’re pretty good), but you can tell that these things suffer from relatively low budgets. That’s why turn of the tide came as quite a shock in quality compared to the rest of the shows - Netflix actually put a relatively high budget into the show, which just allows them to dedicate so much more time to these little things.

cesarb 1y ago

If you prefer to read it in Portuguese, the link seems to be https://www.gpiaaf.gov.pt/upload/processos/d054238.pdf https://www.gpiaaf.gov.pt/upload/processos/d054238.pdf (source: https://www.gpiaaf.gov.pt/detalhe-noticias?uri=1665 https://www.gpiaaf.gov.pt/detalhe-noticias?uri=1665 which has both links)

qingcharles 1y ago

Summary: the wrecked cabin had started its descent from the top station, only got a few seconds down before the steel cable pulled out of its socket; the cabin went into freefall down the tracks; the staff activated all the brakes available, but they were clearly not designed for this situation and could not provide enough stopping force before it derailed and hit a wall and a lamp-post at approx 60km/h.

yongjik 1y ago
Wow, only 60km/h. If it was a modern bus hitting a building at that speed, most occupants would be able to walk out. Really puts into perspective how much safety improved in the past 100 years.
- inferiorhuman 1y ago
  Passenger cars from 40 years ago would struggle to protect you at those speeds.
- vascocosta 1y ago
  One of the issues is that the body consists of a wooden frame, surrounded by a thin sheet of steel to avoid extra weight. So it's not very strong, plus the bulk of the 14 ton mass lies on the bottom where the bogies are. When it derailed and tipped over, the strong structure underneath the cabin sort of crushed the lightweight structure where the passengers were.

pjmlp 1y ago

Have to read it with time, however as Portuguese I imagine the service done during the same day of the tragedy was as always in our culture, "good enough" and to move on. Likewise having all offers turned down for service, in some other cultures, they would rather shut down the funicular than keep it running without such contracts in place. Now several people are dead. As usual, "casa roubada, trancas às portas"

vascocosta 1y ago
> Have to read it with time, however as Portuguese I imagine the service done during the same day of the tragedy was as always in our culture, "good enough" and to move on. Coming from the same country as you, I totally understand. However, in this particular case the maintenance seems to have been done as it was supposed to be. The problem seems to be that the cable broke at the anchoring point underneath the cabin, already underground. This is hidden from view during a normal daily inspection, where someone goes underground and checks the whole cable during a round trip of the cabin. They check the free cable going through pulleys and a flywheel, but they can't see inside the attachment point where the cable meets the cabin. This is only done in more thorough inspections, which do not happen daily. Now, why it broke exactly at that point is probably related to how it was installed and not so much poor quality of the cable itself. Although some manufacturing issue could also be related. We will have to wait and see, but like you said, several innocent people are dead. Hopefully in this case it wasn't down to our culture of "it's good enough, let's move on", which indeed, unfortunately, is part of our history. The least we can do now is find the real causes and make it safer in the future.
- pjmlp 1y ago
  Thanks for the overview, living abroad I don't follow all details, as close as I would being there.
  - vascocosta 1y ago
    You're welcome. :) Most people here have exactly the same view you expressed. My initial reaction was the same as well. Then, on top of it all there's the political noise where each party is now trying to take some advantage out of the situation, which isn't pretty. Besides, we both know well how things usually happen here, so it's only human to think there was some kind of gross mistake. I want to believe it wasn't the case this time, but who knows... We will have to wait and see.

usr1106 1y ago

I find it suprising that the designed life length of the cable is less than 2 years. Is that common also for more modern cable transports?