6 ms·

I got burned recently by Ecobee in the same way. The problem with 'smart' interfaces for traditionally mechanical devices is that the useable lifetime (support

I got burned recently by Ecobee in the same way. The problem with 'smart' interfaces for traditionally mechanical devices is that the useable lifetime (support period) of low-end microprocessors and software, especially online APIs, is often far shorter than the mechanical device it's attached to. Similar to how people that keep cars around for 10+ years are stuck with dated and worthless 'infotainment' systems, Google and Ecobee can't even honor their product for long enough to outlast the HVAC units. What burns me is that it wouldn't be much of an ask for them to push one final (optional) update that would open LAN-only access to core functionality. I and many others in the HA/ESPHome community have written hardware integrations to devices over RS485/UART with unpublished/black-box protocols, so a simple HTTP API would have an integration within days. It would maybe cost an engineer at Nest/Ecobee a day or two of work, and the goodwill would make me far more likely to purchase a newer model. As it is, I've committed to avoiding (where possible) devices that aren't local-first.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
badc0ffee 1y ago
I got lucky with my 2011 Toyota because the inputs are standard Bluetooth, an aux port, and iPod-style USB. The display is also a VFD pixel display and not some crappy LCD with a resistive touchscreen. Of course, new devices might use some incompatible Bluetooth standard in the future.
kevin_thibedeau 1y ago
> What burns me is that it wouldn't be much of an ask for them to push one final (optional) update that would open LAN-only access to core functionality. The last dev who understands the code and the build tooling left years ago.
- throwaway2037 1y ago
  > The last dev who understands the code and the build tooling left years ago. I'm confused. Are you writing this with first hand insider's knowledge? Or is this sarcasm?
dare944 1y ago
As an early Nest employee who worked on the first-gen thermostat I can tell you definitively that you're way off base here. That doesn't mean that Google shouldn't have done more to keep these units alive (and indeed that's one of the reasons I left Google). But these devices were designed in 2010-11. Even keeping the Linux kernel up to date with the latest version is a major undertaking. Adding major functionality like Matter compatibility, or even a simple (but secure!) local API, would take a seasoned engineering team a considerable amount of time. That said, investing in devices that are local first is certainly good advice, provided the APIs are open and well supported.
- h2zizzle 1y ago
  Recent extreme frustration with Google products in mind, I'm tempted to read the crux of this post as, "Google engineers/designers are incompetent." It might be unfair, but on a day when Google Search, Youtube History Search, and (whaddya know) my Nest Thermostat have all failed me, the temptation is strong.
  - gazpacho 1y ago
    I think the reality is that the engineers are competent but this was just not a priority they were given and they were not going to spend nights making this happen instead of hanging out with their kids.
    - ajmurmann 1y ago
      They might even have gotten in trouble if they had rolled out an update that product management didn't ask for and is perceived to reduce incentive to upgrade to a new device
  - dragonwriter 1y ago
    > Recent extreme frustration with Google products in mind, I'm tempted to read the crux of this post as, "Google engineers/designers are incompetent." Engineers don’t make business decisions on when to end support, that’s a management decision; engineers ideally ought to be consulted on what it would take to continue support, but even that isn’t guaranteed. If planned obsolescence has been a business strategy, literally having an obsolescence switch and pulling the trigger on it has to be tempting to certain decision-makers even when support would be practical.
ashdksnndck 1y ago
If your car is old enough to have a standard DIN radio, you can easily replace it with a modern CarPlay/Android Auto unit. And cars that are new enough to have CarPlay/Android Auto built in seem to be generally holding up. It’s really just cars from a specific window (after they started putting nav systems and screens, before adopting CarPlay) that age really badly.
- hunter2_ 1y ago
  In the early 2000s, even cars with oddball radios (like a CD slot adjacent to climate controls for example) could have an aftermarket head unit installed because dash trim kits were available to replace the proprietary layout with a DIN slot. Is this not the case for the era you mentioned?
  - ashdksnndck 1y ago
    I’m not sure what the problem is, but there are a lot of cars where you couldn’t buy anything off the shelf to fit a DIN radio. People on forums were hacking solutions together with literal hacksaws.
I_AM_A_SMURF 1y ago
> It would maybe cost an engineer at Nest/Ecobee a day or two of work I think you misspelled a _year_ or two of work. Especially with the scrutiny that comes with software written at a major corp like Google.
throwaway2037 1y ago
> LAN-only access Serious question: What does this mean? I'm such a dumbo about networking. Is it simple for an app to distinguish between "LAN" and "WAN" network requests?
- RHSeeger 1y ago
  I assume it means - You connect directly to the device to tell it what to do vs - You connect to some service at google/whatever that then tells your device what to do. The former still works after google/whatever decide not to support/host the service that handles that.
vl 1y ago
I don’t get who uses Nest or other non-first party thermostats anymore: All modern furnaces/ACs/heat pumps require their own smart thermostat to work optimally. So if you install Bryant furnace, you end up with Bryant smart thermostat, and so on. In fact, when choosing new furnace/AC choose brand with good software in thermostat first and foremost - units themselves are pretty identical otherwise.
- seanmcdirmid 1y ago
  That really isn’t true. I have a split level heat pump with no thermostat, well, there is one in the remote control that sets a mini thermostat on each internal unit. Basically, we don’t have a central thermostat but that isn’t weird for Seattle. Incidentally, I would love for a better remote control that was easier to use, we might use our heat pump more than a couple of weeks a year in that case.
gizmo686 1y ago
At least HVAC systems have a mostly standard control system and thermostats are easy to swap out. If a thermostat goes out of support and looses functionality, you do not need to replace the entire HVAC system; only the relatively cheap thermostat. I'm contrast, while it is often possible to replace an infotainment system, the replacement needs to have been designed for a fairly specific set of cars, and actually installing it requires paying a mechanic for most people.
JustExAWS 1y ago
> Similar to how people that keep cars around for 10+ years are stuck with dated and worthless 'infotainment' systems, Google and Ecobee can't even honor their product for long enough to outlast the HVAC units I would never buy a car that doesn’t support CarPlay. The four protocols that Apple created to interface with non Apple devices - the original iPod protocol, AirPrint, AirPlay and CarPlay haven’t had any breaking changes. As of at least three years ago, I could use an old first gen iPad from 2010 (the first to support AirPlay/Airprint) and use it with modern Roku TVs with AirPlay support and modern printers. My old 2011 Sonic that I had with a USB port that supported the iPod protocol for displaying titles for audio and controlling iPods still worked with every iPhone I had. But I would never trust Google not to kill a device.
valicord 1y ago
Ecobee thermostats do have local control through the homekit api

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

badc0ffee 1y ago

I got lucky with my 2011 Toyota because the inputs are standard Bluetooth, an aux port, and iPod-style USB. The display is also a VFD pixel display and not some crappy LCD with a resistive touchscreen. Of course, new devices might use some incompatible Bluetooth standard in the future.

kevin_thibedeau 1y ago

> What burns me is that it wouldn't be much of an ask for them to push one final (optional) update that would open LAN-only access to core functionality. The last dev who understands the code and the build tooling left years ago.

throwaway2037 1y ago
> The last dev who understands the code and the build tooling left years ago. I'm confused. Are you writing this with first hand insider's knowledge? Or is this sarcasm?

dare944 1y ago

As an early Nest employee who worked on the first-gen thermostat I can tell you definitively that you're way off base here. That doesn't mean that Google shouldn't have done more to keep these units alive (and indeed that's one of the reasons I left Google). But these devices were designed in 2010-11. Even keeping the Linux kernel up to date with the latest version is a major undertaking. Adding major functionality like Matter compatibility, or even a simple (but secure!) local API, would take a seasoned engineering team a considerable amount of time. That said, investing in devices that are local first is certainly good advice, provided the APIs are open and well supported.

h2zizzle 1y ago
Recent extreme frustration with Google products in mind, I'm tempted to read the crux of this post as, "Google engineers/designers are incompetent." It might be unfair, but on a day when Google Search, Youtube History Search, and (whaddya know) my Nest Thermostat have all failed me, the temptation is strong.
- gazpacho 1y ago
  I think the reality is that the engineers are competent but this was just not a priority they were given and they were not going to spend nights making this happen instead of hanging out with their kids.
  - ajmurmann 1y ago
    They might even have gotten in trouble if they had rolled out an update that product management didn't ask for and is perceived to reduce incentive to upgrade to a new device
- dragonwriter 1y ago
  > Recent extreme frustration with Google products in mind, I'm tempted to read the crux of this post as, "Google engineers/designers are incompetent." Engineers don’t make business decisions on when to end support, that’s a management decision; engineers ideally ought to be consulted on what it would take to continue support, but even that isn’t guaranteed. If planned obsolescence has been a business strategy, literally having an obsolescence switch and pulling the trigger on it has to be tempting to certain decision-makers even when support would be practical.

ashdksnndck 1y ago

If your car is old enough to have a standard DIN radio, you can easily replace it with a modern CarPlay/Android Auto unit. And cars that are new enough to have CarPlay/Android Auto built in seem to be generally holding up. It’s really just cars from a specific window (after they started putting nav systems and screens, before adopting CarPlay) that age really badly.

hunter2_ 1y ago
In the early 2000s, even cars with oddball radios (like a CD slot adjacent to climate controls for example) could have an aftermarket head unit installed because dash trim kits were available to replace the proprietary layout with a DIN slot. Is this not the case for the era you mentioned?
- ashdksnndck 1y ago
  I’m not sure what the problem is, but there are a lot of cars where you couldn’t buy anything off the shelf to fit a DIN radio. People on forums were hacking solutions together with literal hacksaws.

I_AM_A_SMURF 1y ago

> It would maybe cost an engineer at Nest/Ecobee a day or two of work I think you misspelled a _year_ or two of work. Especially with the scrutiny that comes with software written at a major corp like Google.

throwaway2037 1y ago

> LAN-only access Serious question: What does this mean? I'm such a dumbo about networking. Is it simple for an app to distinguish between "LAN" and "WAN" network requests?

RHSeeger 1y ago
I assume it means - You connect directly to the device to tell it what to do vs - You connect to some service at google/whatever that then tells your device what to do. The former still works after google/whatever decide not to support/host the service that handles that.

vl 1y ago

I don’t get who uses Nest or other non-first party thermostats anymore: All modern furnaces/ACs/heat pumps require their own smart thermostat to work optimally. So if you install Bryant furnace, you end up with Bryant smart thermostat, and so on. In fact, when choosing new furnace/AC choose brand with good software in thermostat first and foremost - units themselves are pretty identical otherwise.

seanmcdirmid 1y ago
That really isn’t true. I have a split level heat pump with no thermostat, well, there is one in the remote control that sets a mini thermostat on each internal unit. Basically, we don’t have a central thermostat but that isn’t weird for Seattle. Incidentally, I would love for a better remote control that was easier to use, we might use our heat pump more than a couple of weeks a year in that case.

gizmo686 1y ago

At least HVAC systems have a mostly standard control system and thermostats are easy to swap out. If a thermostat goes out of support and looses functionality, you do not need to replace the entire HVAC system; only the relatively cheap thermostat. I'm contrast, while it is often possible to replace an infotainment system, the replacement needs to have been designed for a fairly specific set of cars, and actually installing it requires paying a mechanic for most people.

JustExAWS 1y ago

> Similar to how people that keep cars around for 10+ years are stuck with dated and worthless 'infotainment' systems, Google and Ecobee can't even honor their product for long enough to outlast the HVAC units I would never buy a car that doesn’t support CarPlay. The four protocols that Apple created to interface with non Apple devices - the original iPod protocol, AirPrint, AirPlay and CarPlay haven’t had any breaking changes. As of at least three years ago, I could use an old first gen iPad from 2010 (the first to support AirPlay/Airprint) and use it with modern Roku TVs with AirPlay support and modern printers. My old 2011 Sonic that I had with a USB port that supported the iPod protocol for displaying titles for audio and controlling iPods still worked with every iPhone I had. But I would never trust Google not to kill a device.

valicord 1y ago

Ecobee thermostats do have local control through the homekit api