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> While I don't think vision-only is hopeless (it works for human drivers) I guess you don't drive? You use more senses than just vision when driving a car.
by moogly 1y ago
> While I don't think vision-only is hopeless (it works for human drivers)
I guess you don't drive? You use more senses than just vision when driving a car.
- Rohansi 1y agoAnd which ones can't be replicated with hardware?
- moogly 1y agoAsk Musk; he's the one who claims that sensor fusion does not work.
- ndesaulniers 1y ago...taste?
- scrollaway 1y agoEven without getting out of the vision sense there are features of vision Tesla doesn’t properly try to replicate. Depth perception for example (it does DP very differently to humans). You also do use your ears when driving.
- gizajob 1y agoDeaf people can drive fine.
- vbezhenar 1y agoOne-eyed people are allowed to drive.
- scrollaway 1y agoWhat’s your point? I was answering a question, not making a statement about any disabilities.
- vbezhenar 1y agoMy point is that "hardware" depth perception is not necessary for successful driving. Just one camera should be enough, rest is algorithms.
- ModernMech 1y agoEyes are not cameras they are extensions of the brain. That people can drive with one eye is not a "proof of concept" that cars should be able to drive with one camera. You'll need a human brain to go along with it. Unfortunately for Tesla, they seem to be short on supply of those at the moment.
- rogerrogerr 1y agoSo your assertion is that a human with access to arbitrarily good camera feeds could not drive a car at level 5? That something magical is happening because the eyes are close topographically to the brain? Sounds implausible.
- ModernMech 1y agoHow does the human consume the arbitrarily good camera feeds? > That something magical is happening because the eyes are close topographically to the brain? It sounds to me like you have to study what eyes actually are. It's not about proximity or magic, they are a part of your brain, and we're only beginning to understand their complexities. Eyes are not just sensory organs, so the analogy to cameras is way off. They are able to discern edges, motion, color, and shapes, as well as correct errors before your brain even is even aware. In robotics, we only get this kind of information after the camera image has been sent through a perception pipeline, often incurring a round trip through some sort of AI and a GPU at this point. > Sounds implausible. Musk just spent billions of dollars and the better part of a decade trying to prove the conjecture that "cameras are sufficient", and now he's waving the white flag. So however implausible it sounds, it's now more implausible than ever that cameras alone are sufficient.
- 1y ago
- dtj1123 1y agoOne eyed, deaf people can drive
- mlindner 1y agoTeslas have and use microphones.
- scrollaway 1y agoGp asked about specifically vision only approach. Vision only means no microphones, regardless of whether Tesla has any… What is up with hn today? Was there a mass stroke?
- rogerrogerr 1y ago“Vision-only” colloquially means no LIDAR and other expensive sensors, not the exclusion of microphones (which are hilariously cheap).
- rogerrogerr 1y agoBinocular depth perception stops being useful somewhere around 10 meters. Your brain is mostly driving using the “computed” depth perception based on the flat image it’s getting. Same way Tesla is getting a depth map. Provable by one-eyed people being able to drive just fine, as could you with one eye covered.
- tester756 1y agointuition?
- renewiltord 1y agoBut we allow deaf people to drive but not people who are entirely blind. This means vision is necessary and sufficient. The problem is clearly a question of the fidelity of the vision and our ability to slave a decision maker and mapper to it.
- bhaney 1y agoPersonally, I can smell a left turn signal from nearly three blocks away
- okr 1y agoThe spider crawling out of the back of the car mirror has seen things, that are far beyond i will ever experience visually!
- figassis 1y agoBehavioral and pattern analysis is always in full overdrive when I drive. I drive in Africa, people never follow rules, red lights at crossings mean go for bikers, when there are no lights you can't just give right of way, or you'll never move. When nearing intersections, people accelerate so they can cross before you, and it's a long line, and they know you have right of way, so they accelerate to scare you into stopping. Amateurs freeze and hold up the line for a very long time, usually until a traffic officer shows up to unblock (multiply this by every intersection). In order for you to get anywhere, you have to play the same game, and get close enough to the point where they aren't sure you'll stop, and will hit you and will have to pay. So often at crossings you're always in near misses and they realize you're not going to stop, so they do. Everyone is skilled enough to do this daily. Your senses, your risk analysis, your spider sense are fully overclocked most of the time. And then there are all the other crazy things that happen, like all the insane lane zig zagging people do, bikers our of nowhere et night with no lights, memorizing all the pot holes in all roads in the city bc they aren't illuminated at night so you can drive at 80-120km/h, etc. So no, it's not just your eyes. Lots of sensors, memory, processing, memory/mapping are required.
- ndsipa_pomu 1y ago> You use more senses than just vision when driving a car Deaf drivers (may include drivers playing loud music too) don't, unless they're somehow tasting the other vehicles.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- ChrisMarshallNY 1y agoWe have these things called "inner ears." I'm pretty sure deaf people have them, too. Nature's accelerometers. I've had mine go bad, and it wasn't fun. Just sayin'...
- ndsipa_pomu 1y agoWere you unable to drive when your inner ears weren't functioning?
- ChrisMarshallNY 1y agoI guess so. I was unable to stand up.
- ndsipa_pomu 1y agoSounds horrible. I can understand that stopping you from cycling, but if you could have managed to sit in a car, would you have been able to drive it? I can imagine that inner ear issues can sometimes affect vision too as my wife suffered from positional vertigo for a while and I could see her eyes flicking rapidly when she was getting dizzy. (I did find a helpful YouTube video about a sequence of positions to put the sufferer through which basically helps to remove the otoliths from the ear canal).
- ChrisMarshallNY 1y agoIn my case, it was a brain tumor. Took a bit more than Lotus Position. It all came out OK, in the end, but it was touch-and-go for a while.
- terminalshort 1y agoYeah, but you can drive on vision alone. Deaf people are allowed to drive just the same as anyone else.
- asadotzler 1y agoIt's not just hearing. I can "feel" in the seat of my pants, the pull of the steering wheel, et. I have a vestibular system that knows bout relative velocities and changes which coordinates with my other senses, and more. This all allows me to take in far more than what my eyes see, or my ears hear and to build the correct intuitions and muscle memories to get good at driving and adapt to new driving environments.